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Heavy Passengers
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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

Ellery:



This is bc.



You made me laugh out loud when I read your comment below.



Maybe I should keep quiet and not share my crazy experiences with these 

little airplanes.  I seem to get folks upset easily.  



How are you all making it up in iceland?  It never got above 32F here today 

with snow last night.



john

---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

> Ellery:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 This is bc.

 

 You made me laugh out loud when I read your comment below.

 

 Maybe I should keep quiet and not share my crazy experiences with these 

 little airplanes. I seem to get folks upset easily. 

 

 How are you all making it up in iceland? It never got above 32F here today 

 with snow last night.

 

 john

 
	


 

 John,

  

   Saying it's bc, don't necessarily make it so!!  Trust me, I know these things!!  : )

  

 Mike Welch

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

At 02:53 PM 2/10/2011, robert bean wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  That sounds interesting.  -anybody else have stories about passengers invading the flight controls? 	


 Not a Kolb, but years ago I had a girlfriend whose mother had been a glider CFI; she owned the school.  On a flight with a student, the tow rope broke on takeoff.  Just like an engine out in a powered plane, the procedure is to land straight ahead, which she attempted to do.  The student panicked, and being male and much stronger than her, overpowered her on the controls and tried to turn back.  About what you'd expect, stall/spin, crash, injuries.  The student (who was a doctor and had money for lawyers) sued her, claimed the turning back was _her_ idea (she was, of course, legally PIC).  She couldn't afford to fight it and lost her business.  When I met her she was flying for some two bit commuter line.



 -Dana

 --

 Alpha test version: too buggy to release.    

 Beta test version: still too buggy to release.    

 Release 1.0: alternate pronounciation of beta test version.

    [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

Hello All,



When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of 80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving weights around the tail to test the aft limit.  The plane flew much better (lighter on the controls) near the aft limit than the forward limit.  So much better that I would suggest anyone building a MKIII to set the airplane up so that with you in the pilots seat, you are at the aft limit.  This would allow the you to put more weight in before you reach the forward limit and will make the airplane feel lighter on the controls when just tooling around solo.



My $.02

Jason

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:05 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

Jason, Please define "test the aft limit".



Rick Girard



On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)trek-tech.com (jason(at)trek-tech.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck" <jason(at)trek-tech.com (jason(at)trek-tech.com)>

  

 Hello All,

 

 When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of 80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving weights around the tail to test the aft limit.  The plane flew much better (lighter on the controls) near the aft limit than the forward limit.  So much better that I would suggest anyone building a MKIII to set the airplane up so that with you in the pilots seat, you are at the aft limit.  This would allow the you to put more weight in before you reach the forward limit and will make the airplane feel lighter on the controls when just tooling around solo.

  

 My $.02

 Jason

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330613#330613

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of  80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving  weights around the tail to test the aft limit.  The plane flew much better  (lighter on the controls) near the aft limit than the forward limit.  So  much better that I would suggest anyone building a MKIII to set the airplane up  so that with you in the pilots seat, you are at the aft limit.  This would  allow the you to put more weight in before you reach the forward limit and will  make the airplane feel lighter on the controls when just tooling around  solo.



My $.02

Jason



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 that is how i have mine set up...  for that  exact reason

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

its the opposite of testing the forward limit    I did not test how far aft the CG could be, I tested it at the aft limit that was published in the builders manual (or what I got from searching this list).  I am not brave enough nor do I have the skill to actually test it to the physical limit.  I just felt that if I was going to make the entry in the log that I had tested it through out is operating range I should take it to the limits I published in my weight and balance documents.  I do not remember what those limits are off the top of my head.



[quote="rickofudall"]Jason, Please define "test the aft limit".



Rick Garrard



On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Jason Omelchuck <jason> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jason Omelchuck" <jason>

  



Hello All,

 

 When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of 80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving weights around the tail to test the aft limit. ï¿½The plane flew much better (lighter on the controls) near the aft limit than the forward limit. ï¿½So much better that I would suggest anyone building a MKIII to set the airplane up so that with you in the pilots seat, you are at the aft limit. ï¿½This would allow the you to put more weight in before you reach the forward limit and will make the airplane feel lighter on the controls when just tooling around solo.

  

 My $.02

 Jason

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330613#330613

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

 ï¿½ - Groucho Marx



 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

I understand setting weight and balance for the aft range of the cg

envelope. The question was meant as what did you test? Stalls with all flap

settings, both approach and departure? Stalls while banked to right and

left? Accelerated stalls?

Rick Girard

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Jason Omelchuck <jason(at)trek-tech.com>wrote:

[quote] 

 its the opposite of testing the forward limit    I did not test how far

 aft the CG could be, I tested it at the aft limit that was published in the

 builders manual (or what I got from searching this list).  I am not brave

 enough nor do I have the skill to actually test it to the physical limit.  I

 just felt that if I was going to make the entry in the log that I had tested

 it through out is operating range I should take it to the limits I published

 in my weight and balance documents.  I do not remember what those limits are

 off the top of my head.

 [quote="rickofudall"]Jason, Please define "test the aft limit".

 Rick Garrard

 On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Jason Omelchuck  wrote:

 > 

 >

 >

 > Hello All,

 >

 >  When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple

 of 80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some

 diving weights around the tail to test the aft limit. ï¿½The plane flew much

 better (lighter on the controls) near the aft limit than the forward limit.

 ï¿½So much better that I would suggest anyone building a MKIII to set the

 airplane up so that with you in the pilots seat, you are at the aft limit

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

flykolb(at)pa.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:04 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

Several heavy pilot vignettes from of old:  

#1  

In the M2 days I took up a passenger who weighed 350 lb.; this with a 503.  Hardest part was keeping his overflowing blubber from interfering with the control stick. Take off and climb were predictably anemic, but once cruise was established it wasn’t too bad.  This was from Kolb Int. where we had 3,000 ft of runway.  I forgot how long the TO roll was.  Significant back stick pressure was required.  

#2  

An impromptu flying session of hopping rides  from a mowed hayfield with a 582 M3 went well until someone got in who was very heavy.  He was huge!.  I figured I could get him off the ground, but the gear and very nice wheel pants would take a beating on the rough field.  What to do??  The answer was on short final and about to arrive …  the seat belts would not reach around his considerable girth. But!  Then he said, that’s ok – I don’t need a seat belt.  Well … the conservative side of a very wild flyer surfaced surprising quickly and spurted, sorry – can’t do that – not safe.  Saved by the belt!  So, this is a very diplomatic solution to the overweight problem – just provide enough belt length to encompass a passenger you don’t mind hauling and you won’t have too worry about what to say to the wide bodies that plop in you airplane.  

#3   

Take-off from SNF with heavy passenger and stiff cross wind in 582 M3 with full swivel non-steering tailwheel.  Not very smart!  Crosswind soon had me at full rudder and still drifting to the right toward planes and people.  Too much momentum toward the crowd to stop.  All of a sudden I realized how much directional control the tailwheel provided   But too late to do anything except push the throttle harder and start praying for altitude. The passenger looked over at me wondering if I was paying attention to our heading.  Just in time we were in the air with a bit more speed and control reestablished.  That was the end of our non-steering tailwheel project.  

   

Dennis  

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

         

  

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard

 Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 9:21 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Heavy Passengers  

  

   

I understand setting weight and balance for the aft range of the cg envelope. The question was meant as what did you test? Stalls with all flap settings, both approach and departure? Stalls while banked to right and left? Accelerated stalls?    

   

    

Rick Girard  

  

       [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

Several heavy pilot vignettes from of old:



  Dennis



Dennis S/Kolbers:



Thanks for sharing your stories.  I am looking forward to many more.  There 

is a lot of Kolb history, but most of it is in our memories and not on 

paper.  What I thought would remain vivid in my memory yesterday is not 

necessarily so today.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

When I was flying off my 40 hours I loaded up the cockpit with a couple of 

80# bags of cement and tested the forward limit, I then strapped some diving 

weights around the tail to test the aft limit.   Jason



 Jason O/Kolbers:\



John Williamson did the same thing you did during testing of his Kolbra, 

only he took it a bit further.  John kept increasing weight until the Kolbra 

would not fly, either forward or aft excess cg.



During one test of the rear CG limit, John stalled the Kolbra to discover it 

would not recover from the stall.  Full power was required to get out of the 

stall and fly again.



I sure miss my flying buddy.



john h

MKIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

I understand setting weight and balance for the aft range of the cg envelope. The question was meant as what did you test? Stalls with all flap settings, both approach and departure? Stalls while banked to right and left? Accelerated stalls?    

   

    

Rick Girard  

  

       



Hello Rick

I did power off stalls only, with flaps and no flaps.  All of the other configurations are too exciting for me.

Jason

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

..."During one test of the rear CG limit, John stalled the Kolbra to discover it would not recover from the stall. Full power was required to get out of the stall and fly again..."



John,



You just pointed out one of the very few, if not the only, real advantages of high thrust line aircraft like our Kolbs. Other aircraft with "normal" thrust lines may not have been able to recover from this condition.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

I hope this fellow doesn't mind me using his picture to show for weight and balance purposes. He would be the limit on passenger weight I would take in my Kolbra. On takeoff with the 80hp 912, it climbed ever so slow. I let him have the stick after reaching altitude and we flew for about 15 minutes. I brought him back to the airport and came in hotter than usual to make a very smooth landing. He was impressed and it was a good day. The weight and balance states that I can take no more than 250 lbs in passenger weight with a full tank of fuel. I feel more comfortable with 200 lbs or less. He was well over 200 lbs and over 6 feet. I'm at 200 lbs and my wife is a 200 lb lady, so I got used to carrying heavy loads.



Ralph B

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_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

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