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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:37 pm Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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Aero-News Net also reports that Honeywell/King has collaborated with
Aspen Avionics and claims they will finally have their WAAS GPS 770
before the end of this year.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 8:50 PM, John Gonzalez <indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com> wrote:
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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I don't know, I'm not so sure that these boxes will be
functionally preferable in some ways to the stuff we have
right now.
First, the touchscreen functions will often, when you
really need them, be useless. I know they put finger
holding places so you can secure your hand, but I've
literally been flying on days when your outstretched
arm and hand can hardly be held up steady enough to hit
a button, even with fingers firmly on a bezel.
So features like rubberbanding to change flight plans
and things like that will be useless. Some of the soft
keys will be very hard at times to hit properly, and
with no hard space between buttons, it probably will
be easier to hit the wrong soft key. It is good that
they planned for some of that by adding finger hold
areas, and some critical functions to the very few knobs
that the system has, but personally I believe that
touchscreen has very limited use in a panel mount
environment....but has very extensive use in the
handheld environment, where the tablet/device can
move with your hand during bumps.
Then we get on to the other big thing that will make
some of the pretty pictures you see, less relevant to
your actual use.
The 650 looks like it could be a great replacement for
the 430/530. It would fit in fine. But, the 750 is
simply not going to fit well in many people's RV-10
panels. I talk to people all the time about their
panels, and how they want to add item Q, R, S, T U,
V, W, X, Y...and Z. Yeah, we all want tons of cool
stuff. Having a monster screen on your Nav/Com/GPS
is going to mean eliminating something else to make
it fit. Also, these 2 radios are NOT EFIS systems.
Garmin really did a good job with the G900/1000,
and G3X, of giving you attitude display and a pretty
good MFD all in the same screens. Here though
you're talking about just a Nav/Com/GPS that makes
a pretty good MFD, yet won't give you the reversionary
capabilities of a multi-screen EFIS like the G1000/G3X.
So the 750 is going to be a pretty hard fit in many
panels...at least in the experimental world where
I live. And, in the regular certified GA market
as an upgrade, it could require very significant
rework to fit into an existing stack.
So personally, I think that at least in the experimental
world, most people will still prefer an EFIS and
if they buy the new radios it would be the smaller 650,
but use a nice multi-screen system with MFD. I think
if they had included more of the standard function
buttons, it would be a better radio to use though, so
I think that for people with EFIS systems, this may
be a great opportunity to nab 430W's at a good price
for people who jump on a 650 based on looks alone,
without thinking of the things they'll miss by not
having buttons.
Just my 2 cents....it's pretty, but even Garmin itself
has better stuff for most people.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 3/23/2011 10:30 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
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dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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Agreed. I was instructing in my 10 and although the student was flying the
aircraft, the "chop" was so bad it was difficult to input anything into the
Chelton buttons or soft keys.
---
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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Exactly...and that system has knobs, nice separated
buttons, and a big bezel to rest on. I've had times
when it took multiple tries just to get frequencies
entered into my radios...and with touch-screen
for many features, I just don't know that in
some situations some functions will be able to be
done....although Garmin is trying to convince people
otherwise.
The OS though looks very nice, and if it weren't
panel mounted, I'd have to say it looks like it
was done with excellence.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 3/24/2011 9:44 AM, DLM wrote:
[quote]
Agreed. I was instructing in my 10 and although the student was flying
the aircraft, the "chop" was so bad it was difficult to input anything
into the Chelton buttons or soft keys.
---
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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It seems like touch screen would work a lot better as a kneeboard or
on a console. Rubberbanding a route seems hopeless, about as difficult
as writing legibly in the same position. I haven't flown with an ipad
yet but the GPS in my car is mounted vertically next to the rear view
mirror and even on smooth roads it can be difficult to use, especially
doing stuff like entering text on the "keyboard".
Also, I like the fact that I have three major brands in my panel.
They work well together, and if something goes TU I don't have all my
eggs in one basket. I guess you can still spread things around with
this new hardware but the intention seems to be a single-brand
solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
831-722-9141 Shop
831-750-0284 Cell
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:
[quote]
Exactly...and that system has knobs, nice separated
buttons, and a big bezel to rest on. Â I've had times
when it took multiple tries just to get frequencies
entered into my radios...and with touch-screen
for many features, I just don't know that in
some situations some functions will be able to be
done....although Garmin is trying to convince people
otherwise.
The OS though looks very nice, and if it weren't
panel mounted, I'd have to say it looks like it
was done with excellence.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 3/24/2011 9:44 AM, DLM wrote:
>
>
>
> Agreed. I was instructing in my 10 and although the student was flying
> the aircraft, the "chop" was so bad it was difficult to input anything
> into the Chelton buttons or soft keys.
> ---
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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For better or worse (and I think better) touch screen interface in
aircraft, cars, etc are here to stay at least until reliable voice
control or maybe direct mind control  comes about. Touch screen
can be done badly, such as the Bendix/King AV8OR line, and it can be
done well such as Garmin and iPad.
Anchoring your hand with an intuitive touch screen interface is IMHO
quicker and easier for data entry than knobs or buttons. I've flown
with my land Nuvi RAM mounted on the panel and iPad and have no issues
with entering commands in turbulence. If you look on the Avweb video
you will see the Garmin pilot rest three fingers on the bezel while
entering commands with his index finger. All operations were faster
than if those commands were being entered with knobs. When done this
was, data entry is effortless. If you allow you hand to freely float
above the screen it will be difficult.
The F-18 Super Hornet upgrade and the next generation F-35 fighter has
touch screen interfaces. The military usually invests a significant
amount of time and money in human factory testing. If touch screen was
such a bad thing, no consideration would be given to using it in the
"turbulent" environment of a combat cockpit.
In 1998 Garmin introduced the GNS-430 with a list price of $10,995.
In 2007? Garmin introduced the GNS-430W with a list price of $11,295.
In 2011 Garmin introduces the GTN 650 with a list price of $11,495.
Is this a new product too fast or too expensive? I guess it is a
matter of perspective. For comparison, consider that the Bendix/King
KX-155 Nav/Comm transceiver with glidescope has a list price of
$5,008.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Dave Saylor
<dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
It seems like touch screen would work a lot better as a kneeboard or
on a console. Rubberbanding a route seems hopeless, about as difficult
as writing legibly in the same position. I haven't flown with an ipad
yet but the GPS in my car is mounted vertically next to the rear view
mirror and even on smooth roads it can be difficult to use, especially
doing stuff like entering text on the "keyboard".
Also, I like the fact that I have three major brands in my panel.
They work well together, and if something goes TU I don't have all my
eggs in one basket. I guess you can still spread things around with
this new hardware but the intention seems to be a single-brand
solution.
|
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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I have a suspicion that in radio frequency mode that the concentric knobs may work the radio frequencies too. Just a guess.
While I do think there can be issues managing the display in turbulence lots of things are difficult in the bumps. I doubt this is any more difficult and in many ways much faster. Where I see a problem are in places like my RV-8A when the stack is on the left when someone is extremely right handed. Bumps and the awkward use of the left hand may be a challenge.
One additional thing I noticed on the YouTube video (below) is the relatively slow refresh rate of the map display (4:00 minute mark). It seems to reload in sections. I would hope a unit like this would have a powerful enough processor to instantly redisplay the map. I guess I am just too spoiled after upgrading to the new A5 based iPad2. J
Robin
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Rob Kochman
Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:21 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet.................
Avweb has a good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJCGOdD5exY&featurel
At 1:35, check out how a frequency is entered. No way that's easier than on a 430/530.
Still some pretty cool features, though. True, the big one will be hard to fit into some existing radio stacks, but if you use the transponder and audo panel interfaces, that frees up quite a bit of room. That said, I wouldn't want to have to go through menus to switch from com1 to com2, etc. A dedicated audio panel is preferable IMO.
-Rob
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
It seems like touch screen would work a lot better as a kneeboard or
on a console. Rubberbanding a route seems hopeless, about as difficult
as writing legibly in the same position. I haven't flown with an ipad
yet but the GPS in my car is mounted vertically next to the rear view
mirror and even on smooth roads it can be difficult to use, especially
doing stuff like entering text on the "keyboard".
Also, I like the fact that I have three major brands in my panel.
They work well together, and if something goes TU I don't have all my
eggs in one basket. I guess you can still spread things around with
this new hardware but the intention seems to be a single-brand
solution.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
[url=tel:831-722-9141]831-722-9141[/url] Shop
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] Cell
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
| Quote: |
Exactly...and that system has knobs, nice separated
buttons, and a big bezel to rest on. I've had times
> when it took multiple tries just to get frequencies
|
| Quote: | entered into my radios...and with touch-screen
for many features, I just don't know that in
some situations some functions will be able to be
> done....although Garmin is trying to convince people
|
| Quote: | otherwise.
The OS though looks very nice, and if it weren't
panel mounted, I'd have to say it looks like it
was done with excellence.
>
|
| Quote: | Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
do not archive
On 3/24/2011 9:44 AM, DLM wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "DLM" <dlm34077(at)q.com (dlm34077(at)q.com)>
>>
|
| Quote: | > Agreed. I was instructing in my 10 and although the student was flying
> the aircraft, the "chop" was so bad it was difficult to input anything
> into the Chelton buttons or soft keys.
>> --- |
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civengpe
Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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|
Did I miss something or did they not say that you could still do the input via the knobs if you wanted too? So... if it was very turbulent and you were having issues, couldn't you just revert back to the old method of input?
I really like the idea of being able to input airways directly. In the video it shows them selecting a vor and then all of the airways showed up in a list. slick!
Shannon
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:43 PM, William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com (wcurtis(at)nerv10.com)>
For better or worse (and I think better) touch screen interface in
aircraft, cars, etc are here to stay at least until reliable voice
control or maybe direct mind control comes about. Touch screen
can be done badly, such as the Bendix/King AV8OR line, and it can be
done well such as Garmin and iPad.
Anchoring your hand with an intuitive touch screen interface is IMHO
quicker and easier for data entry than knobs or buttons. I've flown
with my land Nuvi RAM mounted on the panel and iPad and have no issues
with entering commands in turbulence. If you look on the Avweb video
you will see the Garmin pilot rest three fingers on the bezel while
entering commands with his index finger. All operations were faster
than if those commands were being entered with knobs. When done this
was, data entry is effortless. If you allow you hand to freely float
above the screen it will be difficult.
The F-18 Super Hornet upgrade and the next generation F-35 fighter has
touch screen interfaces. The military usually invests a significant
amount of time and money in human factory testing. If touch screen was
such a bad thing, no consideration would be given to using it in the
"turbulent" environment of a combat cockpit.
In 1998 Garmin introduced the GNS-430 with a list price of $10,995.
In 2007? Garmin introduced the GNS-430W with a list price of $11,295.
In 2011 Garmin introduces the GTN 650 with a list price of $11,495.
Is this a new product too fast or too expensive? I guess it is a
matter of perspective. For comparison, consider that the Bendix/King
KX-155 Nav/Comm transceiver with glidescope has a list price of
$5,008.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Dave Saylor
<dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)>
>
> It seems like touch screen would work a lot better as a kneeboard or
> on a console. Rubberbanding a route seems hopeless, about as difficult
> as writing legibly in the same position. I haven't flown with an ipad
> yet but the GPS in my car is mounted vertically next to the rear view
> mirror and even on smooth roads it can be difficult to use, especially
> doing stuff like entering text on the "keyboard".
>
> Also, I like the fact that I have three major brands in my panel.
> They work well together, and if something goes TU I don't have all my
> eggs in one basket. I guess you can still spread things around with
> this new hardware but the intention seems to be a single-brand
> solution.
========================
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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le, List Admin.
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mmayfield
Joined: 09 Oct 2009
Posts: 40
Location: NSW Central Coast, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet........ |
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| Quote: | | Did I miss something or did they not say that you could still do the input via the knobs if you wanted too? So... if it was very turbulent and you were having issues, couldn't you just revert back to the old method of input? |
No you didn't miss it.
Everybody else did.
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Mike |
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40950(at)rv10.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: For those that haven't bought their avionics yet............ |
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I'm behind on my reading and thus late to the fight but had something to contribute.
William noted the advancement of touch screens in military and now GA aircraft and the importance of human factors. All are subject to the effects of turbulence regarding the ability of the pilot to enter data. GA aircraft are more susceptible to turbulence due to light wing loading. The key is anchoring your hand to effect inputs to the device. I saw the video on the new Garmin touch screen device but could not visualize the ability to stabilize your hand while inputing data. Even in the mid eighties, the Brits and others discovered ways to input data into nav computers, in this case the Jaguar, while flying low level at significant speeds when even heavy aircraft were susceptible to the effects turbulence. I remember holding the glare shield with my left hand fingers while entering the data one number at a time with my thumb into a remote data key pad as the airplane is jumping all around. This remote pad was conveniently located on the left glare shield so I could still fly with the right hand and stay heads-up during the low-level flying. It worked quite well. Maybe we don't need a glare shield mounted remote key pad but I'm not yet sold on the touch screens mid-panel mounted in GA aircraft susceptible to effects of turbulence until I see how to anchor my hand while entering data. Need to see this one in-flight to make a determination.
My 2-cents,
Tom
On Mar 24, 2011, at 12:43 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: |
For better or worse (and I think better) touch screen interface in
aircraft, cars, etc are here to stay at least until reliable voice
control or maybe direct mind control comes about. Touch screen
can be done badly, such as the Bendix/King AV8OR line, and it can be
done well such as Garmin and iPad.
Anchoring your hand with an intuitive touch screen interface is IMHO
quicker and easier for data entry than knobs or buttons. I've flown
with my land Nuvi RAM mounted on the panel and iPad and have no issues
with entering commands in turbulence. If you look on the Avweb video
you will see the Garmin pilot rest three fingers on the bezel while
entering commands with his index finger. All operations were faster
than if those commands were being entered with knobs. When done this
was, data entry is effortless. If you allow you hand to freely float
above the screen it will be difficult.
The F-18 Super Hornet upgrade and the next generation F-35 fighter has
touch screen interfaces. The military usually invests a significant
amount of time and money in human factory testing. If touch screen was
such a bad thing, no consideration would be given to using it in the
"turbulent" environment of a combat cockpit.
In 1998 Garmin introduced the GNS-430 with a list price of $10,995.
In 2007? Garmin introduced the GNS-430W with a list price of $11,295.
In 2011 Garmin introduces the GTN 650 with a list price of $11,495.
Is this a new product too fast or too expensive? I guess it is a
matter of perspective. For comparison, consider that the Bendix/King
KX-155 Nav/Comm transceiver with glidescope has a list price of
$5,008.
--
William
N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Dave Saylor
<dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> It seems like touch screen would work a lot better as a kneeboard or
> on a console. Rubberbanding a route seems hopeless, about as difficult
> as writing legibly in the same position. I haven't flown with an ipad
> yet but the GPS in my car is mounted vertically next to the rear view
> mirror and even on smooth roads it can be difficult to use, especially
> doing stuff like entering text on the "keyboard".
>
> Also, I like the fact that I have three major brands in my panel.
> They work well together, and if something goes TU I don't have all my
> eggs in one basket. I guess you can still spread things around with
> this new hardware but the intention seems to be a single-brand
> solution.
|
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