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Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.
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ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

J....



Did you ever figure out what the problem was???



chris ambrose

Kolb M3X/Jabiru A-2200    191.0 hrs

N327CS

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jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:39 am Post subject: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

On 06/16/2011 11:16 PM, ces308 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 J....



 Did you ever figure out what the problem was???



 chris ambrose

 Kolb M3X/Jabiru A-2200    191.0 hrs

 N327CS

Hi Chris...
	




No, I've only been able to eliminate a bunch of items as *not* being the cause:



I've been hoping that the two or three guys who monitor this list regularly and work

on [Jabiru] engines for a living would contribute. Hoping that maybe they had seen similar

symptoms in one of their hundreds or thousands of  engines that have passed through their

establishments...  I see them chiming on other issues all the time. Maybe they're stumped 

speechless 



The issue: *both* #3 plugs equally sooty, all other plugs light tan (see previous attached 

pic)



Here's what I've tried:



- leak down test consistently good, both cold and warm

- h.t. wires to cyl. #3 swapped for #4's. #3 plugs still sooty

- distributor innards checked (both would have to have same #3 issue)

- all valve springs checked, all lifters checked for soft or collapsed

- air gap set to 0.010"

- new plugs (obviously)

- other miscellaneous checks, such as h.t. wire seating, etc.



What I haven't yet tried:



- examining the cam. Wouldn't a worn cam lobe result in not enough lift and a *lean* mixture

   on that cylinder?

- using a vacuum gauge. Where could I connect it (no Bing, remember) ? Do I

   need to drill and weld in a nipple in the intake manifold?



So the question stands. What could cause either:



- a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plugs



or



- the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn off the charge



..keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated...



So far, I've flown about an hour since my pre-flight mag test went back to normal, probably

as a result of replacing #3 plugs, likely one or both were fouled.



But my confidence level is low, as I wait for the current #3 plugs to foul. I just wish I 

could

discover the reason for this behaviour!



Thanks to all for the input!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343249#343249






	


-- 

Regards,  J.



- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb

- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress

- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca



-----------------------------

J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci)

email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca

*NIX consulting, SysAdmin

http://cleco.ca

I took a course in speed waiting.  Now I can wait an hour

in only ten minutes.

				--- Steven Wright

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dons701

Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 80
Location: Hershey, PA

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

Hi J,  How soon after you install fresh plugs does the engine exhibit evidence of miss-fire? Does this happen after several heat and cool down cycles, or at the first warm up?  This problem is so strange and given that your static leak down tests, ignition and "average" fuel  mixture seem OK, it makes me want to look for something strange. I would, if not done already, perform a dynamic compression test and observe how the needle on the gage jumps up as the engine is spun through four compression cycles. Be careful! Does the needle jump up to 150psi or so on the first or second hit? Test some of the other cylinders and look for differences compared with #3. Shame you don't have a vacuum port on the engine side of your throttle body as this would be an even more dynamic test of the air pumping abilities of the engine.

    It would be interesting to try a pair of  NGK Iridium plugs in #3 to see how they perform under #3's condition. They are much easier for the coils to fire as they have a small jump off point for the spark. Gap carefully to avoid breaking off the Iridium as it withstands 4000F before melting which is why they last so long and should never need re-gaped.   I have a complete set in my 2200A, gaped to .025 and have never looked back. With the coating supplied on the threads of these plugs you do not need anti-seize, as told by the tech at NGK. Some coatings applied to the threads can inhibit the grounding of the plug, acting like a resister, decreasing the voltage to jump the gap. Are you torquing the plugs? ( 8 ft pounds I think) 

 J, keep trying and start looking for the "stupid and strange" things......Don B

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_________________
Zenith 701 #76120
Jabiru 2200A #2456 95 hours
Sensenich Wood 64-PJ-36 Prop

Charles R Gallagher

Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 27

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

J. OK here is a strange scenario,blocked oil return line in #3 cyl.head,the oil level rising to the valve steams and making its way into the combustion chamber fouling the plugs.Remove the valve cover replace with Plexiglas operate the engine to see actual conditions.Clear the return line if necessary . You tube has a video of a 3300 with the Plexiglas installed and engine running.Also,shows ambient pressure affect on oil level. 

Good hunting,CRG

--- On Fri, 6/17/11, j. davis <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

From: j. davis <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca>

Subject: Re: Re: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com

Date:  Friday, June 17, 2011, 8:36 AM



--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "j. davis" <[url=/mc/compose?to=jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca]jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca[/url]>



On 06/16/2011 11:16 PM, ces308 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->  JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308"<[url=/mc/compose?to=ces308(at)ldaco.com]ces308(at)ldaco.com[/url]>



 J....



 Did you ever figure out what the problem was???



 chris ambrose

 Kolb M3X/Jabiru A-2200    191.0 hrs

 N327CS

Hi Chris...
	




No, I've only been able to eliminate a bunch of items as *not* being the cause:



I've been hoping that the two or three guys who monitor this list regularly and work

on [Jabiru] engines for a living would contribute. Hoping that maybe they had seen similar

symptoms in one of their  hundreds or thousands of  engines that have passed through their

establishments...  I see them chiming on other issues all the time. Maybe they're stumped 

speechless 



The issue: *both* #3 plugs equally sooty, all other plugs light tan (see previous attached 

pic)



Here's what I've tried:



- leak down test consistently good, both cold and warm

- h.t. wires to cyl. #3 swapped for #4's. #3 plugs still sooty

- distributor innards checked (both would have to have same #3 issue)

- all valve springs checked, all lifters checked for soft or collapsed

- air gap set to 0.010"

- new plugs (obviously)

- other miscellaneous checks, such as h.t. wire seating, etc.



What I haven't yet tried:



- examining the cam. Wouldn't a worn cam lobe result in not enough lift and a *lean* mixture

   on that cylinder?

- using a vacuum gauge. Where could I connect it (no Bing, remember) ? Do  I

   need to drill and weld in a nipple in the intake manifold?



So the question stands. What could cause either:



- a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plugs



or



- the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn off the charge



...keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated...



So far, I've flown about an hour since my pre-flight mag test went back to normal, probably

as a result of replacing #3 plugs, likely one or both were fouled.



But my confidence level is low, as I wait for the current #3 plugs to foul. I just wish I 

could

discover the reason for this behaviour!



Thanks to all for the input!

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343249#343249






	


-- 

Regards,  J.



- Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb

- former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress

- see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca



-----------------------------

J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci)

email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca

*NIX consulting, SysAdmin

http://cleco.ca

I took a course in speed waiting.  Now I can wait an hour

in only ten minutes.

        &nbp;  --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEnginbsp;            - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -                     &nbstp://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics===================





	
 [quote][b]

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

You could rule out the lift of the cam lobes on #3 by observing  

the...hand-cranked...rocker action on that cylinder. If in doubt,  

check lift with a ruler, or a dial indicator, although if it's as bad  

as you say, observation of rocker action by eye should reveal if the  

cam is worn.



By the way what are the specs on your Prince prop?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)

Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1117 hrs (since  

3-27-2006)

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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: Help! 3300 rough running puzzle.

J, it must be frustrating not having any of the engine gurus offer years of experience in solving this problem. Maybe they are too busy with all the other problems.... Â 



Anyway, have you tried tilting the carb in its mount to see if the problem moves to another cylinder. Â it is a know problem that the Jab inlet system is diabolical.

 



Martin



On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:36 PM, j. davis <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca (jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "j. davis" <jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca (jd(at)lawsonimaging.ca)>

 

 On 06/16/2011 11:16 PM, ces308 wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Â JabiruEngine-List message posted by: "ces308"<ces308(at)ldaco.com (ces308(at)ldaco.com)>

 

 J....

 

 Did you ever figure out what the problem was???

 

 chris ambrose

 Kolb M3X/Jabiru A-2200 Â  Â 191.0 hrs

 N327CS

 

 

 	
 Hi Chris...

 

 No, I've only been able to eliminate a bunch of items as *not* being the cause:

 

 I've been hoping that the two or three guys who monitor this list regularly and work

 on [Jabiru] engines for a living would contribute. Hoping that maybe they had seen similar

 symptoms in one of their hundreds or thousands of Â engines that have passed through their

 establishments... Â I see them chiming on other issues all the time. Maybe they're stumped speechless 

 

 The issue: *both* #3 plugs equally sooty, all other plugs light tan (see previous attached pic)

 

 Here's what I've tried:

 

 - leak down test consistently good, both cold and warm

 - h.t. wires to cyl. #3 swapped for #4's. #3 plugs still sooty

 - distributor innards checked (both would have to have same #3 issue)

 - all valve springs checked, all lifters checked for soft or collapsed

 - air gap set to 0.010"

 - new plugs (obviously)

 - other miscellaneous checks, such as h.t. wire seating, etc.

 

 What I haven't yet tried:

 

 - examining the cam. Wouldn't a worn cam lobe result in not enough lift and a *lean* mixture

  Â on that cylinder?

 - using a vacuum gauge. Where could I connect it (no Bing, remember) ? Do I

  Â need to drill and weld in a nipple in the intake manifold?

 

 So the question stands. What could cause either:

 

 - a single cylinder of six to run so rich as to actually foul *both* plugs

 

 or

 

 - the two plugs of the single cylinder not to fire sufficiently to burn off the charge

 

 ..keeping in mind the trouble-shooting items I have already eliminated...

 

 So far, I've flown about an hour since my pre-flight mag test went back to normal, probably

 as a result of replacing #3 plugs, likely one or both were fouled.

 

 But my confidence level is low, as I wait for the current #3 plugs to foul. I just wish I could

 discover the reason for this behaviour!

 

 Thanks to all for the input!

  	  Quote: 	
		   

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=343249#343249

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 -- 

 Regards, Â J.

 

 - Sonex #325 C-FJNJ, Jab 3300a, Prince P-Tip, Aerocarb

 - former C-IGGY CH701 owner/builder, CH750 in progress

 - see both (and more!) at http://cleco.ca

 

 -----------------------------

 J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp sci)

 email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca

 *NIX consulting, SysAdmin

 http://cleco.ca

 

 

 I took a course in speed waiting. Â Now I can wait an hour

 in only ten minutes.

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â --- Steven Wright

 

 

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  -

 ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List

 ====================================

 MS -

 k">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 e -

  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

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