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N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D
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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

John, The problem must be in your browser settings. The picture came through on all three versions of your post.



Rick Girard



On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:48 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  

 

Not doing something right.  ;-(

 

 john h

 

 --------

 John Hauck

 MKIII/912ULS

 hauck's holler, alabama

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

John Hauck 	  Quote: 	
		  Strange.  Picked up the info and not the photo.  I'll try again.



john h 	




John, here is a good example where you can edit your original post without resending another one. I'm not trying to be a "smart SOB", just trying to point this out.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Foto  came thru fine, three times! (on Mac)

On Mar 15, 2011, at 1:48 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Not doing something right.  ;-(

 

 john h

 

 --------

 John Hauck

 MKIII/912ULS

 hauck's holler, alabama

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=333977#333977

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf4163_1_565.jpg

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Congratulations on your maiden flight and thanks for your first flight advise. A great looking airplane. Homer would be proud !

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Frank,

My mk3 can be trimmed when I"m full fuel and solo,by removing the flap 

handle from the off detent and letting them trail.If I'm slow cruising 

at low RPM,the first notch handles it nicely.I have an additional angle 

added to the flap bracket,drilled for a roll pin which is pushed 

through the handle tube.This gives 6or 8 positions for flaps, making 

the first 2 in increments so small you can 't  see them move but they 

make great trim adjustments.

G.Aman MK3c jabiru 2200A 610 hrs

,



--

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Frank,



Congratulations on your first flight and thanks for the flight information.  



I had one of the first X-tra's and initally the horiz. stab was located at the top of the fuselage tube.  Later on the factory said to locate it 1/4" up from the middle.  I then insisted on an adjustable front bracket as I has seen on the factory Kolb.  I had to argue with Danny Mullins who was President at the time but he finally sent one.



Somewhere in the past I got a chart showing the angles and incidences of four X-tra's (wings, boom tube and horiz. stab. angles) with the motor mount level.  I think you can search the archives and find out all the information.  It would be good to compare those numbers with what you have.  I think Mike Welch also published some good information on the angles.  From what I've seen it seems that most of the guys have it more towards the top than the middle.  Moving it towards the top is the right direction for your trim problem.



Rex Rodebush

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

> Somewhere in the past I got a chart showing the angles and incidences of four X-tra's (wings, boom tube and horiz. stab. angles) with the motor mount level. I think you can search the archives and find out all the information. It would be good to compare those numbers with what you have. I think Mike Welch also published some good information on the angles. From what I've seen it seems that most of the guys have it more towards the top than the middle. Moving it towards the top is the right direction for your trim problem.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Rex Rodebush


	


  

 Rex, Frank, everyone else,

  

   Rex, that was me that you got that chart from.  I put it together from the contributions of 

 the 4 guys that were generous enough to take the time to read their Xtras incidences for me.

   The 4 different Xtras were all 'fairly' close, and coincided with what Bryan told me we should

 set the incidences at.

  

   I still have the chart if anyone is interested. 

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Mike, I'd like to see it, I can use it to check Ken's X.



Rick Girard



On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		       > Somewhere in the past I got a chart showing the angles and incidences of four X-tra's (wings, boom tube and horiz. stab. angles) with the motor mount level. I think you can search the archives and find out all the information. It would be good to compare those numbers with what you have. I think Mike Welch also published some good information on the angles. From what I've seen it seems that most of the guys have it more towards the top than the middle. Moving it towards the top is the right direction for your trim problem.

 > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Rex Rodebush


	


  

 Rex, Frank, everyone else,

  

   Rex, that was me that you got that chart from.  I put it together from the contributions of 

 the 4 guys that were generous enough to take the time to read their Xtras incidences for me.

   The 4 different Xtras were all 'fairly' close, and coincided with what Bryan told me we should

 set the incidences at.

  

   I still have the chart if anyone is interested. 

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  



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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

I would like to see that chart as well Mike

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: Re: MarkIII Xtra first flight - Conjecture

Hi Gang, 



Great feedback!!  thank you. 

Its amazing what you learn when you post a problem here. 



I'm working with the factory on my set-up and spent all day yesterday doing measurements to find out exactly what happened.  I will post once completed,  suffice to say that Rich G's advise seems to hit the mark. 

Cool about the longer legs, I did not know that. 



The ducts on my Jabiru are actually Jab Factory made but designed to fit on a trike and wrap around a person.  I left 'em as is and I can put the oil cooler radiator right in the middle, if needed.  I was advised to fly without the cooler at first. The CHT I got was in climb so I think I'm OK. 

I also plan to use weights as an original  passenger to determine trim when I'm ready to go there. 



As an aside I did plan on putting a trim tab on the elevator and beefed up the TE with double tubing on one side so I could rivet on a tab.  I like aerodynamic trim vs a spring but kept the factory set-up to start with and decide later what I want. 



After this flight I would REALLY advise anyone to try to get some KOLB time before 1st flight.  I'll even volunteer to be a west coast contact for anyone needing that once I fly off my 40Hrs.  



Lets do it safe and we can all enjoy these planes for a long time. 

Safe landings.



FrankD

N1014S M3x

15 mins total time.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Frank, Be very careful about adding weight to an unbalanced control surface. Weight is one of the elements that can drive a surface into flutter. I don't know of any Mk III that has ever experienced elevator flutter, but we know that the aircraft IS subject to both rudder and aileron flutter. 

Rick Girard



On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Frankd <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Frankd" <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)>

  

 Hi Gang,

 

 Great feedback!!  thank you.

 Its amazing what you learn when you post a problem here.

 

 I'm working with the factory on my set-up and spent all day yesterday doing measurements to find out exactly what happened.  I will post once completed,  suffice to say that Rich G's advise seems to hit the mark.

  Cool about the longer legs, I did not know that.

 

 The ducts on my Jabiru are actually Jab Factory made but designed to fit on a trike and wrap around a person.  I left 'em as is and I can put the oil cooler radiator right in the middle, if needed.  I was advised to fly without the cooler at first. The CHT I got was in climb so I think I'm OK.

  I also plan to use weights as an original  passenger to determine trim when I'm ready to go there.

 

 As an aside I did plan on putting a trim tab on the elevator and beefed up the TE with double tubing on one side so I could rivet on a tab.  I like aerodynamic trim vs a spring but kept the factory set-up to start with and decide later what I want.

  

 After this flight I would REALLY advise anyone to try to get some KOLB time before 1st flight.  I'll even volunteer to be a west coast contact for anyone needing that once I fly off my 40Hrs.

 

 Lets do it safe and we can all enjoy these planes for a long time.

 Safe landings.

 

 FrankD

 N1014S M3x

 15 mins total time.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=334081#334081

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 ===========

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 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 





  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: MarkIII Xtra angles of incidence

Hi Guys, 

I can provide those angles for you as I just discussed them with Bryan at KOLB. 



These are for the CURRENT M3X only that the factory is building and may differ on older models (Like mine).



Use the motor mount flanges as the reference = 0deg  front to back.



Boom tube to motor mount = -6.1 Deg

Wing to MM.   = +3.4Deg.

Horizontal Stab to MM = -4.8 Deg.

Engine thrust line to MM = 0 Deg.  



OK,  a few things we discussed.  by using this wing incidence it is better to have the longer steel legs vs the "Short"  Alu legs.  (Good excuse to get those sexy long legs!)

It gives a better angle of attack on take-off and landing.  



If you have an older M3X with a bigger wing incidence in reference to the motor mount and have moved your Horzontal Stab LE up to be flush with the top of the boom tube I believe the "Short" legs will work fine and your trim should be set ok. 

(Chris A,  I believe your M3x is like this)



Have fun trying to measure these angles,  I did. 



One other thing I thought about was that if your plane is flying fine and it all works good, I would not change anything.  As pointed out the possibility of introducing flutter or an unstable set-up is real if we "Experiment" a little too much. 



Hope this helps. 

FrankD



N1014S, M3X.

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Frank is this where you have your angles set ? 

   I just want to make sure I don't get mine to have  the same problem you recently explained you have 

 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra 2nd "first flight "- Fr

Hey Gang, 



Gotta share..  



Its a wonderful day in Hollister CA..  no wind, getting HOT,  75deg F , 6000 feet of paved runway.. 



Just finished doing high speed taxi tests,   Line up , feed in power,  WOW we're up and climbing like Hell...  Ease off the power,  engine getting hot, climb to 2500ft,  CHT still up there , red light on.  still need slight nose down trim (Push).  back off the power,  Fly around for 10 mins,  feels good,  slow down on purpose,  left wing drops a little between 35-40,  good.. Line up for landing careful to keep power in at 50MPH..    down, down Ok start to feel for runway,  THUNK,  ok landed..  still had 2 feet to go when KOLB STALL kicks in .. but my new steel legs did OK.. Taxi back.  stop.. 

Thanks Travis and kOLB folks..    



As you may know my very first flight was with my wings and tail rigged incorrectly,  WAYY to much up elevator... 



SO now I very close to the following angles.. 

motor mount  and Engine = 0 deg

Boom Tube = -6.1deg

Wing= +3.4 deg.

Horz Stab = -4.8 Deg   , I think I need to add a few Deg more. to reach this number.. 



New long steel legs.. A REAL 1st flight



Now I have an airplane...  

Time to fix that radio that is garbled,  work on the high temps of the Jabiru, and put in a dynamic trim system..  and raise the LE of the horz Stab slightly..   Fun Fun.. 



Fly safe, these are GREAT airplanes.. 

FrankD

IMG_5995.JPG

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Congrats Frank.  You did good.  Airplane looks fine.

Have fun tinkering.

BB



On 3, Jul 2011, at 4:33 PM, Frankd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hey Gang, 

 

 Gotta share..  

 

 Its a wonderful day in Hollister CA..  no wind, getting HOT,  75deg F , 6000 feet of paved runway.. 

 

 Just finished doing high speed taxi tests,   Line up , feed in power,  WOW we're up and climbing like Hell...  Ease off the power,  engine getting hot, climb to 2500ft,  CHT still up there , red light on.  still need slight nose down trim (Push).  back off the power,  Fly around for 10 mins,  feels good,  slow down on purpose,  left wing drops a little between 35-40,  good.. Line up for landing careful to keep power in at 50MPH..    down, down Ok start to feel for runway,  THUNK,  ok landed..  still had 2 feet to go when KOLB STALL kicks in .. but my new steel legs did OK.. Taxi back.  stop.. 

 

 

 Thanks Travis and kOLB folks..    

 

 As you may know my very first flight was with my wings and tail rigged incorrectly,  WAYY to much up elevator... 

 

 SO now I very close to the following angles.. 

 motor mount  and Engine = 0 deg

 Boom Tube = -6.1deg

 Wing= +3.4 deg.

 Horz Stab = -4.8 Deg   , I think I need to add a few Deg more. to reach this number.. 

 

 

 

 New long steel legs.. A REAL 1st flight

 

 Now I have an airplane...  

 Time to fix that radio that is garbled,  work on the high temps of the Jabiru, and put in a dynamic trim system..  and raise the LE of the horz Stab slightly..   Fun Fun.. 

 

 Fly safe, these are GREAT airplanes.. 

 FrankD

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344805#344805

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5995_109.jpg

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Frank, Have not seen those cooling fairings before.Where did you get them?

  G.Aman MK3C jabiru 2200a Head temps well below 300f, 630 hrs

 

  

 

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Good job Frank !I'm glad you are getting it

dialed in ! 



On your air scoops...does the air flow right through them? And the way they are spread apart looks like it may actually be blocking the air flow or not letting air go through them...just a thought...



chris ambrose

M3X/Jabiru a 2200

N327CS

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Congrats there Frank on your first successful flight and I hope you have many more enjoyable flights in it 

     	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Ellery,



  Are you working on a Kolb?  Did you say you had an Xtra you were building? 

Just curious.....



Mike Welch



Congrats there Frank on your first successful flight and I hope you have many more enjoyable flights in it 

     	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

  

 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: Re: N1014S MarkIII Xtra first flight - Frank D

Congratulations Frank!



Good luck on your test flying and thanks much for the wing / tail angle information. 



Rex

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