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Electric Fuel Pump
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f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Brian,

I that regard, I think that you are right.
On the other hand, I've never had a fuel pump fail either. Is there a verifiable history of this on M-14P's?
Reb___________________________________________________________
On Jul 2, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
[quote]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
Quote:
In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.


I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust.


Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

Quote:

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k7wx



Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Roger,

I like the idea as it adds a margin of safety. When flying certificated singles and twins, the boost pump comes on during takeoff and approach. Got used to the idea and seems like a reasonable practice if Barry's set-up can be used in the same way.
Warren Hill
N464TW


On Jul 2, 2011, at 3:50 PM, Roger Baker wrote:
Quote:
Brian,

I that regard, I think that you are right.
On the other hand, I've never had a fuel pump fail either. Is there a verifiable history of this on M-14P's?
Reb___________________________________________________________
On Jul 2, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote:


On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
Quote:
In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.


I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust.


Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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brian(at)lloyd.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
Quote:
Brian,

     I that regard, I think that you are right.  
     On the other hand,  I've never had a fuel pump fail either.  Is there a verifiable history of this on M-14P's?



When it comes to systems a lot of stuff on aircraft is, uh, suboptimal. No, there doesn't seem to be a history of failure. But I am personally averse to any sort of single-point-of-failure where an alternative exists. I have contemplated how I would switch hands to fly with my left and manage engine power by pumping, or not, with my right hand. I don't like the idea.


-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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Vic



Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Hello,

we mounted two Pierburg fuel pumps under the passenger floor in our 18 T after experiencing severe loss of fuel pressure in warm weather during the take-off run. And you just don“t want to deal with that once again. I have to add that we run the Yak on leadfree auto fuel from the beginning for 5 years now - as most of you would do facing the price of avgas in Europe. With these pumps plus a one-way valve feeding into the standard fuel line pressure stays above 0.5 bar in all conditions and this is only used for pressurizing the carb before engine start and for take-off. I can“t see how to manage an electric primer pump replacement with good control so we keep the manual pump for our starting technique. No big deal to keep that sealed as the critical parts can be accessed from within the cockpit. It is true that the action of the plunger is not really smooth with an o-ring acting on the steel plunger in non lubricating gasoline. So we made up a set of seals from teflon and nylon/polyamide plus o-rings as elastics - no more problems.
I can think of a setup feeding fuel into the primer line going into the induction chamber in case of a carburettor failure. All you“d need is a T fitting and an electric/mechanic valve and some flow-limiting valve which you set up on the ground for about half power to get you to an airfield in emergency.
I remember a story when the seal between the oil pump and the fuel pump failed . The consequence was that the oil pump fed oil through the fuel pump to the carb at 2-3 bar and the pilot was lucky to make it to the airfield - just - with minimal power - and oil - left.

Cheers
Vic


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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

The vane type aircraft engine driven fuel pump is indeed a very reliable unit. But, like any other mechanical device, they have been known to fail on occasion.
It is good practice to overhaul or replace it at the normal engine TBO even if the engine continues in service beyond that.
Of course about the worst time for a primary fuel pump failure would be right after take-off.
Both the Yak and the CJ have the emergency fuel supply on the wrong side of the cockpit. Both the location and the pump type in the Yak virtually guarantee a bad outcome.
The CJ is better but a good outcome would be a function of luck and awesome dexterity.

For me it will be an elec. aux. pump as it was in my Harvard even though the hand wobble pump was correctly located for the left hand. Always on for take-off and landing. A primary pump failure on T.O. would not be noticed until you kill the aux. pump at circuit altitude. Ho-Hum - turn it back on and land!

Walt


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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

When I put the M-14p in my CJ, I had a big concern about the wobble pump and my arm keeping up with running the M-14. I replaced the wobble pump with a 24v Facet electric pump. I had a local machine shop make up the fitting conversion I needed. One day right after takeoff, I got smoke in the cockpit! Big time smoke, acrid and deadly. I switch off master switch, alternator and canopy open than made a hard turn 180 for the field. By the time I landed (:45 seconds) most of the smoke had cleared.  What I found was the Facet pump had an internal short (I don’t how) that burned though its casing.

All of us here on the list, have ideas (great ones) that are colored by our life experiences. We tend to judge new ideas by those experiences. Old farts like old things (sometimes), and old farts-to-be will be more accepting of new stuff of the ā€˜new age’. This is my perspective, I am a cheap SOB. If I can fix it with a ā€œOā€ ring, I will. If there ain’t no more of them there parts, I’ll replace it with something new. I like Barry’s mod, but I hate depending of electricity for my fuel. Once I kept the M-14 running with just the primer. Now its like an old friend, soul mate and guardian angel to me. (Well I guess that’s a little over the top). But when the parts wear out, his system will most likely get put in.

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

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czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Are u really an expert on absolutely everything?

Bill

On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

[quote]

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <[url=mailto:f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com]f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)[/url]> wrote:
Quote:
In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.


I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust.


Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
[url=mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com]brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)[/url]
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

Quote:


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brian(at)lloyd.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:01 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net (czech6(at)mesanetworks.net)> wrote:
Quote:
Are u really an expert on absolutely everything?


I suspect you are attempting to cast aspersions but I will treat your question as serious. 


No, I am not an expert on absolutely everything. I am just more familiar with more parts of physics and engineering than most people I have met. I also tend to test things by experiment. I do a lot of test flying of airplanes to see what they really do, not what other people tell me that they do. I tend not to trust "conventional wisdom" until I can understand its origin.


For example, I was told from a very early age that one should never turn back to the runway after an engine failure on upwind. OTOH, the turn-back to a downwind landing is normal in a glider after a rope break above a certain altitude. I wondered why it isn't the same with a powered plane. So I went out and experimented. I did several attempts in different aircraft and determined that the turn-back is a viable maneuver in some aircraft from some altitudes but not viable in other aircraft. These included actual turn-back to a dead-stick landing. It is one thing to do it at altitude but it is also very helpful to do for real where the visual cues are different.


In addition, one of the things I am really good at is systems analysis. I have an uncanny ability to look at a system a quickly deduce its points of weakness and the ramifications of failure of various components. I tend to then go about redesigning systems in aircraft I own to eliminate single-points-of-failure. FWIW, the CJ6A presents an AMAZING number of areas for improvement. I have never owned a Yak52 but suspect that its systems would respond to similar analysis.


I guess you weren't around here 10 years ago. Smile

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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yakplt(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:36 am    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

He is an expert on a lot more things than Mark Bitterlich was.

Some days you just can't win Bill.

Thank God.



--- On Sun, 7/3/11, Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net> wrote:

Quote:

From: Bill Geipel <czech6(at)mesanetworks.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Electric Fuel Pump
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:08 PM

Are u really an expert on absolutely everything?

Bill



On Jul 2, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)> wrote:

Quote:


On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Roger Baker <f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com (f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com)> wrote:
Quote:
In about 1500 hours of flying several different Yak 52's over a period of 12 years, I've had ONE primer leak...easily fixed.


I have only flown (front seat) three different ones. All leaked in either the prime or fuel pump position. I suspect that if you really analyzed the hand-plunger type pump you would find it not particularly robust.


Regardless, does anyone here really think they can keep an M14P running on that primer pump used as an aux fuel pump? Really? At least I think you have enough volume with the wobble pump in the CJ to keep it going but I am not nearly as convinced that one could keep a Yak52 in the air on the "aux" pump.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

Quote:




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Firedog(at)visi.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Larry,

Saw your misfortune in the Flightwatch link this am…Never trust a teenager (under 30) with a Maserati. I hope your bird is back in the air real soon.
Robert

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pine
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:10 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Electric Fuel Pump


Here is what I did in my CJ. I placed the fuel pump and the primer solenoid in the forward, right hand lower access area. I removed all lines out of the cockpit to include the primer and wobble pump. Now the complete fuel system is operated by a single switch on the right hand panel. This switch activates both the prime and fuel pump function. No need to pull the prop through when priming now. As I turn over the engine I hit the momentary primer and the engine starts every time. If needed I can hit the electric pump with the same switch that will lock in position with a center off. You can see the switch in the picture. It is the guarded switch in the yellow stripped area with two lights that indicate primer, boost pump, or primer and boost pump. Just another way to skin the cat..
Larry Pine


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threein60(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

Thanks Robert..
Unfortunately, luck wasn't with me that evening. Still hoping for a rebuild. Love the plane, hate to give her up.
Larry Pine
--- On Wed, 7/6/11, Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com> wrote:
Quote:

From: Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Electric Fuel Pump
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:52 AM


Larry,



Saw your misfortune in the Flightwatch link this am…Never trust a teenager (under 30) with a Maserati. I hope your bird is back in the air real soon.

Robert



From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pine
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:10 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Electric Fuel Pump




Here is what I did in my CJ. I placed the fuel pump and the primer solenoid in the forward, right hand lower access area. I removed all lines out of the cockpit to include the primer and wobble pump. Now the complete fuel system is operated by a single switch on the right hand panel. This switch activates both the prime and fuel pump function. No need to pull the prop through when priming now. As I turn over the engine I hit the momentary primer and the engine starts every time. If needed I can hit the electric pump with the same switch that will lock in position with a center off. You can see the switch in the picture. It is the guarded switch in the yellow stripped area with two lights that indicate primer, boost pump, or primer and boost pump. Just another way to skin the cat..

Larry Pine




Quote:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:50 pm    Post subject: Electric Fuel Pump Reply with quote

What happened?

Are you ok?

Bear

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pine
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 4:26 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Electric Fuel Pump


Thanks Robert..

Unfortunately, luck wasn't with me that evening. Still hoping for a rebuild. Love the plane, hate to give her up.

Larry Pine

--- On Wed, 7/6/11, Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com> wrote:

From: Dr. Robert Schroeder <Firedog(at)visi.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Electric Fuel Pump
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2011, 11:52 AM
Larry,



Saw your misfortune in the Flightwatch link this am…Never trust a teenager (under 30) with a Maserati. I hope your bird is back in the air real soon.
Robert

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pine
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:10 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Electric Fuel Pump


Here is what I did in my CJ. I placed the fuel pump and the primer solenoid in the forward, right hand lower access area. I removed all lines out of the cockpit to include the primer and wobble pump. Now the complete fuel system is operated by a single switch on the right hand panel. This switch activates both the prime and fuel pump function. No need to pull the prop through when priming now. As I turn over the engine I hit the momentary primer and the engine starts every time. If needed I can hit the electric pump with the same switch that will lock in position with a center off. You can see the switch in the picture. It is the guarded switch in the yellow stripped area with two lights that indicate primer, boost pump, or primer and boost pump. Just another way to skin the cat..
Larry Pine

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