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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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Hi Bud
and thanks for a nice comment.
However
Replacement Tubes: Europa tubes are now made by McCreary and are for a 7-8 inch tire. They are very well built, and have the exact 90 degree bend and placement of the valve stem for the mono's wheel. They are about $130 each, and again worth every penny. It is my experience they are changed only on puncture not wear.
Are you sure they are McCreary´s? On Europas sites they say only “Tube – Mono – suits 7.00 and 8.00 tyres main tube – tba”.
In fact there is not anymore a company named Mc Creary. Today it is known to be Specialty Tires of America, formerly known as McCreary Tire. I assume those McCreary /Specialty Tires of America tubes are made in Indonesian by Deli.
American Racer Tires and its sister company Specialty Tires of America were originally known as the McCreary Tire & Rubber Company, founded in 1915 in Indiana, Pennsylvania.
*** Watch this:
Hi Raimo.
We have good quality, but Asian manufacture $21.95 each
We have good luck with these.
Hi Steven
What is the brand name of Asian manufacture? Is it maybe a Deli from Indonesian?
Wishes, Raimo
Correct. Deli Indonesia
Best regards
Steve
I have had four incidents in four years with Deli. That means a case after every 50 flight hours /70 landings. You bet I will not have a Deli any more...
Terveisin, Raimo
***
So...no Deli any more.
***
I have asked Good Year´s US General Aviation Sales Manager Robert Robson to find us the best available tube for Monowheelers. I will let you know the results.
As you maybe notice, this is a serious business for me.
Raimo OH-XRT Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watchL?v=RAt9oj9eI3I
From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:41 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident
To all, and congrats to Raimo Toivio
When preparation, proficiency and proper procedures meet a potentially catastrophic chain of events, the chain is broken and the aircraft, pilot and passengers all have a story to tell rather than being an accident statistic.
Your thorough planning for tire changes in the field, spares, and most importantly a lovely and supportive wife makes the event a nuisance tire change out in the field, so I am hoping you bought your wife a great dinner and told her how much you appreciate her.
As for tires and tubes, from what I can report from the US mono pilots that have shared their experiences with me here goes:
Original Classic Equipment was an industrial 8 inch tire and tube. Cheap, strong but rather thin with squishy sides. The clearances were minimal from the frame and cockpit module and during landing the brake caliper on a flat tire tore it up pretty quick. About 2000 most guys started going with the 7 inch McCreary as a replacement around here. It is narrower and of course a little lower. The original tube was a bit thin but cheap at $35 for a lawn tire tube.
Replacement Tires:
The McCreary 7 inch six ply seems to work very well with very long life. This tire has more clearance from the frame, the wheel well, and its six ply sides is very stiff. It is available through Europa or Aircraft Spruce (PN 06-09600):
for about $130 US and is worth every penny.
Replacement Tubes: Europa tubes are now made by McCreary and are for a 7-8 inch tire. They are very well built, and have the exact 90 degree bend and placement of the valve stem for the mono's wheel. They are about $130 each, and again worth every penny. It is my experience they are changed only on puncture not wear.
Most taxi failures need a serious autopsy of the tube. I have found with new clients that they pinch the tube or cut the stem. Once the tire goes flat, it gets cut by the brake caliper. We have gone to a full proof method here in the shop. First we inspect the wheel for any burrs or sharp edges on the rim and especially on the valve stem. We smooth these out if present. Then thoroughly clean and dry the wheel. We cut card stock that fits the recess machined into the wheel and glue it in place with super glue dabs on one side only. Then show the client how the wheels go together and to watch for the white paper in the wheel half split with an inspection mirror to make sure all goes together easily. Then the tube is lightly powdered , inserted into the tire, aligned with the stem aligned with the dot (not always present) and slide the wheel into the tire. Carefully align the tube stem and ensure the tube is not twisted. Now carefully install the other wheel half and gently push the two halves together. Insert bolts and pull up evenly. The tire is ready to inflate.
A suitable lubricant for tire to wheel during installation is not axel grease according to the FAA maintenance folks. There is no reason for lube on a well maintained rim free of dirt, corrosion etc. If the tire will not go on the rim, use a proper lube such as Freylube or a mixture of dish soap and water with no more than 10% mineral oil. Allow the solution to dry before putting the tire in use. Petroleum lubricants between the tire and rim may cause the tire to rotate on hard braking or run-up (and the tire will rotate on the rim with a 914 at full blast with an Airmaster Prop), causing tube stem or tube failure. Learn from my mistake. Read Michelin's guide to tire installation: http://www.airmichelin.com/uploadedFiles/MichelinAirDev/StandardContent/Resource/certification_level_2.pdf
Great job Raimo,
Regards to all,
Bud Yerly
Europa Tech Support
Custom Flight Creations, Inc.
www.customflightcreations.com
(813) 653-4989
[quote] ---
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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I have Argon at the hanger (for my TIG welder). Would that work in the place of Nitrogen ?
[quote][b]
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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It might, depends on atomic weight of argon, helium or hydrogen is hopeless, goes straight through the gaps between the rubber molecules.
Graham
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, 18 July, 2011 20:43:35
Subject: Re: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident
I have Argon at the hanger (for my TIG welder). Would that work in the place of Nitrogen ?
[quote]http://www="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution============
[b]
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davidlewendon(at)me.com
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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Just like BS !
On 18 juil. 11, at 21:56, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
| Quote: | It might, depends on atomic weight of argon, helium or hydrogen is hopeless, goes straight through the gaps between the rubber molecules.
Graham
From: Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)>
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, 18 July, 2011 20:43:35
Subject: Re: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident
I have Argon at the hanger (for my TIG welder). Would that work in the place of Nitrogen ?
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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It is near Nitrogen (both a inert “slow” type gases and used as a protective gas when welding, not harmful, not flammable and their weight is about similar. In air there is 78% of Nitrogen anyway but only 0,94% of Argon.
Remember: the main purpose is to get all the Oxygen out!
I assume Argon is much more expensive than Nitrogen.
But if you have it, why not try it and report us.
Make a sign to your gear leg: “Pure Argon filled tyre” – what a respect you will get!
Raimo OH-XRT Finland
http://www.youtube.com/watchL?v=RAt9oj9eI3I
From: Paul McAllister (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 10:43 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident
I have Argon at the hanger (for my TIG welder). Would that work in the place of Nitrogen ?
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Raimo,
Yes, McCreary has probably been bought out, but they still have a phone number and are listed in Aircraft Spruce as a supplier. The adds still say:
"Located in Indiana, PA and Unicoi, TN, Specialty Tires is committed to producing high quality tires that are 100% Made in America."
I have had good luck with the Europa tubes which are bought through aircraft supply houses, however, I had good luck with the Asian made tractor tubes that were original in the mono kit too. As I said in a past post, installation has much to do with a tubes longevity. I know that if you grease the wheel rim, the tire can spin on the wheel and the tube doesn't last long at all, nor does the tire or wheel pant. Ah the exuberance of youth and the desire to get in the air quick.
You are probably right that many tubes (and tires now days) are made overseas, maybe even by the same company that makes lawn tractor tires, but when you put the use on a tire or tube that says "airplane" you pay more, supposedly for the quality and or inspection standards but mostly for liability I'm sure. Let's face it, your $600 alternator on a Piper can be bought with the same part number at an auto parts store for $60. But the auto parts store one doesn't say airplane.
Everything on my plane comes from an airplane manufacturer or supplier. Why risk a $100,000 investment on a $12 part.
Regards,
Bud
[quote] ---
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:52 am Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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Dear Bud specially and all of you
My tube installation has been perfect you can be sure about it. Remember, many of us have had tube problems like Paul MacAllister for instance. I am sure he is a well known pro. Never grease the wheel trim! I have markings no movements between the trim and tire /tyre.
Sorry but those companies which make for example tubes for planes they have no a real liability. Just a morals or nothing. There is no place I can send an invoice !
My principle: I am not flying for saveing money! I do understand in most cases paying more = get more safety. I would love to pay 1000 $ for a tube which is *really* unbreakable !!!
***
I purchased and got today a tyre pre-puncture liquid from Netherlands. I have it 25 liter = about 6 gallons and I need it only 0,25 liters. So I haveso far free tyre puncture liquids for about 99 Europas who ever will land to EFTP!
Price: 550 euros /canister. As I wrote I am not saveing when it is the question of my or my family´s (flight) safety.
Check www.11d.nl
***
Check also www.purinvent.com
Very interesting – that is practically unbreakable tyre /tire solution.
***
Rob Robson, US Sales manager of GA Goodyear answered me as follows below.
The big question: how do you think is the type G15/6.00-6 tube for the tire /tyre 7.00-6 ?
If you think it is ok that will be my way to go on. No matter about the costs!
An idea 2 is (IMHO) not so good (to bed the valve).
Raimo Toivio OH-XRT Finland (yber alles)
Hi Raimo,
We make a tube that is sized 7.00/8.00-6 which will fit in a 7.00-6 tire, but it has a TR-20 straight valve. We do not make one that has a bent 90-degree valve.
I think that you have two options if you would like to use Goodyear tubes:
1. Try a G15/6.00-6 tube with a TR-67 valve (which is a bent 90-deg valve). The 7.00-6 tire is roughly 1 1/4" taller and 3/4" wider than a 6.00-6 tire, so the tube will most likely stretch to fit.
2. Try bending the valve on a 7.00/8.00-6 tube to fit your wheel.
I don't know which option would work better; it depends primarily on the wheel and where the valve hole is.
Regards,
Rob Robson, Sales Manager - General Aviation
Goodyear Aviation Tires
Phone: 330.796.1596
Cell: 330.283.8704
[url=wlmailhtml:www.goodyearaviation.com]www.goodyearaviation.com[/url]
From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 2:12 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident
Raimo,
Yes, McCreary has probably been bought out, but they still have a phone number and are listed in Aircraft Spruce as a supplier. The adds still say:
"Located in Indiana, PA and Unicoi, TN, Specialty Tires is committed to producing high quality tires that are 100% Made in America."
I have had good luck with the Europa tubes which are bought through aircraft supply houses, however, I had good luck with the Asian made tractor tubes that were original in the mono kit too. As I said in a past post, installation has much to do with a tubes longevity. I know that if you grease the wheel rim, the tire can spin on the wheel and the tube doesn't last long at all, nor does the tire or wheel pant. Ah the exuberance of youth and the desire to get in the air quick.
You are probably right that many tubes (and tires now days) are made overseas, maybe even by the same company that makes lawn tractor tires, but when you put the use on a tire or tube that says "airplane" you pay more, supposedly for the quality and or inspection standards but mostly for liability I'm sure. Let's face it, your $600 alternator on a Piper can be bought with the same part number at an auto parts store for $60. But the auto parts store one doesn't say airplane.
Everything on my plane comes from an airplane manufacturer or supplier. Why risk a $100,000 investment on a $12 part.
Regards,
Bud
[quote] ---
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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:48 am Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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On 07/21/2011 04:49 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | I purchased and got today a tyre *pre-puncture* liquid from Netherlands.
I have it 25 liter = about 6 gallons and I need it only 0,25 liters.
|
Just a few thoughts:
1) It is available in 1/4 liters bottles as well, so you could have
saved quite some money.
2) According to the website it is only for punctures in the thread, not
in the sidewalls. But if I remember correctly the sidewalls is where the
monowheels usually develop the leaks.
3) According to the website it is for slow moving vehicles only. But I
wouldn't exactly describe an Europa as a slow moving vehicle.
4) They also say that it can be washed away with water if you want to
repair the tire. I'm not sure what to think about this: Does it also
mean that when you fly through the rain the stuff dissolves? You might
not even know that you had a leak previously but suddenly the tire
empties and you are in for a surprise when you land on the wet runway.
5) The stuff remains liquid inside the tire. During landing the wheel
accelerates in a very short time when the wheel makes initial contact
with the runway. The liquid stuff inside the tire has inertia and I'm
not sure what the effect will be. For sure it will have a lot of
friction for a short moment, and it may give a massive imbalance when it
has piled up on the bottom of the tire during flight and suddenly has to
rotate very fast, just like a washing machine that starts to hop when
the laundry piled up on one side. You might be the inventor of the
"self-bouncing monowheel". This imbalance may be the reason why it is
described as "for slow moving vehicles only".
So, be careful here! You might want to add the stuff in stages and test
each stage with an actual landing to see how it behaves.
Also, what is the effect of temperature on that liquid stuff? Will it
become a jelly like lump inside the tire if it gets too cold? Maybe put
it overnight in a freezer and see what becomes of it.
| Quote: | Price: 550 euros /canister. As I wrote I am not saveing when it is the
question of my or my family´s (flight) safety.
|
I fully agree but you should make sure you are not trading one risk for
another. If this stuff really works one would expect that it would be
used already widely in the airplane industry.
Frans
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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Hi Frans,
thanks for your thoughts - they are more or less a
careful analysis (as your mails usually always
are).
I will comment a bit between lines with *** :
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
From: Frans Veldman
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:45 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Tire /tyre landing
incident /accident
<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>
On 07/21/2011 04:49 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | I purchased and got today a tyre *pre-puncture*
liquid from Netherlands.
I have it 25 liter = about 6 gallons and I need
it only 0,25 liters.
|
Just a few thoughts:
1) It is available in 1/4 liters bottles as well,
so you could have
saved quite some money.
*** They have 25 liters and 1 liters botles only.
They sell also 1/4 liters "pump pushes direct from
the canister" but no botles. As I wrote earlier, I
do not fly to save money. 25 liters of that staff
will go sooner or later. Maybe some day we will
put 3x0,25 liter to your trike...
2) According to the website it is only for
punctures in the thread, not
in the sidewalls. But if I remember correctly the
sidewalls is where the
monowheels usually develop the leaks.
*** Correct, mostly for punctures in the thread. I
have had four (4) tube punctures; two times in the
sidewalls, two times in the threads. So, I counted
it could prevent some puncture cases.
3) According to the website it is for slow moving
vehicles only. But I
wouldn't exactly describe an Europa as a slow
moving vehicle.
*** When taxiing my speed is around 20 knots. I
feel it is quite slow. During typical flight I
taxi about 2-4 km before dep and after arr using
that (slow) speed via all kind of taxiways and
grass and what so ever surface. During take off
with "high speed" max 60 knots only let us say 200
m and during landing another 200 m with "high"
speed and using most cases high quality asphalt
without sharp rocks, nails and other possible shit
making punctures. 10% high speed, 90% low speed
taxi. So...
4) They also say that it can be washed
away with water if you want to
repair the tire. I'm not sure what to think about
this: Does it also
mean that when you fly through the rain the stuff
dissolves? You might
not even know that you had a leak previously but
suddenly the tire
empties and you are in for a surprise when you
land on the wet runway.
***Come on! Those "slow moving vehicles" are
moving also when raining. If the stuff dissolved
when wet it would be totally unusefull! It cannot
do that, not possible. When it fills the hole, it
will not dissolve any more. They claim it will
fill the hole diameter even 16 mm!
5) The stuff remains liquid inside the tire.
During landing the wheel
accelerates in a very short time when the wheel
makes initial contact
with the runway. The liquid stuff inside the tire
has inertia and I'm
not sure what the effect will be. For sure it will
have a lot of
friction for a short moment, and it may give a
massive imbalance when it
has piled up on the bottom of the tire during
flight and suddenly has to
rotate very fast, just like a washing machine that
starts to hop when
the laundry piled up on one side. You might be the
inventor of the
"self-bouncing monowheel". This imbalance may be
the reason why it is
described as "for slow moving vehicles only".
*** That is something what I have wondered also.
The radius of the tube is around 0,2 m. The mass
of the stuff is around 0,3 kg. The max speed of
the tire is about 60 knots = 31 m/s. That means
the tyre is revolving about 1500 rpm = 25 r/s. But
only a short moment. The stuff itself BTW is not
so liquid, it is more or less like let us say
micro slurry or it has a form of existence like
porridge. That means it will be always more or
less everywhere in the tube.
"Self-bouncing monowheel": I liked that much! Let
us wish that effect will compensate so common
"Pilot induced bouncing effect".
So, be careful here!
*** I promise!
You might want to add the stuff in stages and test
each stage with an actual landing to see how it
behaves.
*** Good idea but I am too lazy to do that!
Also, what is the effect of temperature on that
liquid stuff? Will it
become a jelly like lump inside the tire if it
gets too cold? Maybe put
it overnight in a freezer and see what becomes of
it.
***They claimed -40C but it is a good idea to put
some of it to the freezer.
| Quote: | Price: 550 euros /canister. As I wrote I am not
saveing when it is the
question of my or my family´s (flight) safety.
|
I fully agree but you should make sure you are not
trading one risk for
another.
*** There are almost always double sides, blacks
and whites. I have decided to do my everything to
not suffer any more punctures. Maybe I will get
other problems instead of that. That is my way to
go anyway.
If this stuff really works one would expect that
it would be
used already widely in the airplane industry.
***
Why not:
1) it is not certified for aviation use.
2) there are many let us say "good and well known
safety manners or products" but they are not in
use, from one reason or other. For example BRS and
airbags really works but they are not widely used
so far.
3) I had C172 more than 12 years and never tyre
punctures. That problem is not so common
obviously.
4) money, labour
5) large planes with many tires, loosing one is
maybe a minor case.
***
I am almost sure the main problem is the tube
brand name Deli and their low level production
quality. It is so cheap that how it could be good?
Frans, please comment Rob Robson´s ( Sales
Manager - General Aviation Goodyear Aviation Tires
Phone: 330.796.1596 Cell: 330.283.8704
www.goodyearaviation.com ) idea below (that brand
name is something I could trust):
1. Try a G15/6.00-6 tube with a TR-67 valve (which
is a bent 90-deg valve). The 7.00-6 tire is
roughly 1 1/4" taller and 3/4" wider than a 6.00-6
tire, so the tube will most likely stretch to fit.
Thanks, Raimo
BTW: tomorrow I will head to Utsjoki, which is
practically northernmost point in Finland and
about 370 km north from Polar Circle. I will fly
all together +2000 km with my 10-years old
daughter Tuuli. Wish us safe landings with a full
tube! I have no spare tube with me, the shipment
was unfortunately late.
We will met Jos (you remember) in Ivalo. May I
tell wishes for him from all of you?
Raimo OH-XRT Finland
Frans
browse
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 805
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| Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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FWIW
I have been told by several IAs and A+Ps to never use an old tube if it is removed from an aircraft tire. They say it grows in size with use and pressure and reinstalling can cause folds that can "work" and turn to leaks.
I owned a Cessna 170 for 19 years and never had a flat. I had tires that were 600 x 6, 700 x 6 and 800 x 6. I always changed tubes with the tires, talc the tube and filled and emptied several times to get the tube sitting nice and flat.
I don't know the mfg of the tubes, I don't remember if the stems were 90 degree?
Ron Parigoris
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budyerly(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: Tire /tyre landing incident /accident |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Raimo,
Sorry for the slow response.
Alas no tube is perfect and frankly, I hate how the bent tube wheel works. The stem never sets really straight, even when I affix a 5/16 inch by 32 nut and a washer to help it out.
I have often wondered myself why not put some pre-puncture fluid in a tube and fill with an inert gas. Or even fill the darned thing with the fix a flat type fluid. Now that we have the electronic tire pressure monitoring devices that work in tubeless tires, can it be worked out on a tubed tire? Ah to have the time to research and develop new things. With very inexpensive and light air compressors available now, we could have our own built in auto tire inflation system like the big guys. I am seriously considering adding a compressor to my plane powered direct from the battery with a valve stem sticking out of the fuselage bottom. When I get to the plane and need some air, I pull out my very light filler tube out of the baggage bay and hook up. With my very easy to open wheel pants, I wouldn't need to wait for the Fixed Based Operators mechanic or have to drag out my gear to fill the always occurring low tire. Three screws, open the pant and fill the tire.
As you already know, my main concern with the larger tire of 7 or 8 inches, the side wall will tend to fail if it loses pressure. Once the side wall fails, the tube can't fix that problem so the tire will fail.
As for the 6 inch tube, that is quite a stretch for this sized tube as there is a huge difference between 6 and 7 inch tires, and in the event of a puncture I had the thought it may be more of a blow out rather than a floppy tire roll out.
Also if you go to an 8 ply sidewall, what will that do to the tires ability to absorb the shock.
I supposed if we all made perfect landings on dead smooth wide fields we wouldn't have a concern with a stiffer tire....
Regards,
Bud
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