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fuel flow from tanks
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keithmckinley



Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Brian,

I did want to add one thing; You are absolutely correct that given correct instrument calibration, and rigging there is no reason that the fuel level indicator wouldn't read correctly in a coordinated turn. Thats the book answer. Operationally, for what ever reason, perhaps my poor airmanship, I DON"T get an accurate reading except when I am in level flight with my wings leveled via rudder input.

I'm sure others are a disinterested as I am in pursuing this. I just know what works for me.

BTW, if there was ever an airplane where one needed to absolutely
understand how the forces of flight feel and relate to flight....that would be the AV8. Plenty of holes in NC that support that fact.

~Later


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brian(at)lloyd.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 3:26 PM, keithmckinley <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com (keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley" <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com (keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com)>

Brian,

I did want to add one thing; You are absolutely correct that given correct instrument calibration, and rigging there is no reason that the fuel level indicator wouldn't read correctly in a coordinated turn. Thats the book answer. Operationally, for what ever reason, perhaps my poor airmanship, I DON"T get an accurate reading except when I am in level flight with my wings leveled via rudder input.

I'm sure others are a disinterested as I am in pursuing this. I just know what works for me.


I am sure you are right. I doubt there is anything I can add to that.
 
Quote:

BTW, if there was ever an airplane where one needed to absolutely
understand how the forces of flight feel and relate to flight....that would be the AV8. Plenty of holes in NC that support that fact.


On that I would agree too. Lots more forces to balance.


--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

[quote][b]


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Rob Rowe



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Dennis - thanks for the explanation I understand the nature of the single vent problem now. Guess that's why they introduced the 1mm flow restrictors into the cross piece arm joints feeding return fuel to each tank when they moved to the separate tank vents design (having blanked off the 'old' single vent arm). Allowing the resulting return back pressure spray of fuel through the restrictors to make it less sensitive to the orientation of the associated pipework or aircraft (to an extent). Presume this could not be used on the single vent design as the resulting back pressure would jettison most of the fuel out of the belly vent cross piece arm. On my -52 (1991 build ) as a last resort we addressed an untraceable imbalance by making one of the flow restrictor holes marginally larger ... at these Lilliputian dimensions a 0.1mm diameter change increases the flow hole area by c.20%, hence even the smallest change can make a significant difference. As I mentioned in my original post ... the devil's in the detail!
Cheers, Rob


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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Unless I am mistaken, the post '89 52's with separate vent systems
actually have 2 vents per tank. The standard inboard vent line and an
outboard vent line on the top of each tank, which is capped off on the
pre '89 airplanes, is used on post '89 models. Now if someone wanted to
test a modified vent system for pre '89 airplanes, one could uncap the
fitting on the fuel tanks and add a vent tube to each tank and exiting
out of the bottom of the fuel cavity cover plate. Since this vent line
is at the top of the tank AND the fact that the original tanks have the
same 2 degree dihedral in them on the bottom side (inboard to outboard)
as does the wing itself making the tank thicker on the inboard end, the
outboard vent will tend to remain clear of fuel even if the tank is
filled to the top of the filler neck. I might add a "restrictor" at the
fitting at the flare on the top tank vent line so as to force a greater
amount of air through the inboard (standard) vent tube. But the
outboard vent line would certainly help alleviate the problem.

Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 7/26/2011 8:35 PM, Rob Rowe wrote:
Quote:


Dennis - thanks for the explanation I understand the nature of the single vent problem now. Guess that's why they introduced the 1mm flow restrictors into the cross piece arm joints feeding return fuel to each tank when they moved to the separate tank vents design (having blanked off the 'old' single vent arm). Allowing the resulting return back pressure spray of fuel through the restrictors to make it less sensitive to the orientation of the associated pipework or aircraft (to an extent). Presume this could not be used on the single vent design as the resulting back pressure would jettison most of the fuel out of the belly vent cross piece arm. On my -52 (1991 build ) as a last resort we addressed an untraceable imbalance by making one of the flow restrictor holes marginally larger ... at these Lilliputian dimensions a 0.1mm diameter change increases the flow hole area by c.20%, hence even the smallest change can make a significant difference. As I mentioned in my original!
post ... the devil's in the detail!
Cheers, Rob


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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:22 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Dennis, Rob, and others, thanks for this very instructive explanations!
These kind of discussions is what makes this list so interesting!

Jan

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Rob Rowe



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: Berkshire, UK

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Dennis,
Sounds like an interesting idea. As to the 89+ -52s ... I believe the 'standard inboard vent' is now just used for excess return fuel from the collector tank (with the cross piece port for the single belly vent tube blanked off) so it's no longer a vent in the conventional sense. Other than allowing some expansion cross flow into the other tank engine off. I'm probably flying my -52 tomorrow so I'll have a look-see to confirm whether the cross piece is blanked off or if I'm just having a senior moment.
Cheers, Rob

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, the post '89 52's with separate vent systems
actually have 2 vents per tank. The standard inboard vent line and an
outboard vent line on the top of each tank, which is capped off on the
pre '89 airplanes, is used on post '89 models. Now if someone wanted to
test a modified vent system for pre '89 airplanes, one could uncap the
fitting on the fuel tanks and add a vent tube to each tank and exiting
out of the bottom of the fuel cavity cover plate. Since this vent line
is at the top of the tank AND the fact that the original tanks have the
same 2 degree dihedral in them on the bottom side (inboard to outboard)
as does the wing itself making the tank thicker on the inboard end, the
outboard vent will tend to remain clear of fuel even if the tank is
filled to the top of the filler neck. I might add a "restrictor" at the
fitting at the flare on the top tank vent line so as to force a greater
amount of air through the inboard (standard) vent tube. But the
outboard vent line would certainly help alleviate the problem.

Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com


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Firedog(at)visi.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

And...help us stay safe! My trip to OSH was greatly improved by the ideas
provided through this forum.
Balanced fuel flow through the use of the right rudder and corrective action
early.
Thanks again,
Robert

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k7wx



Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Many of us here in Arizona have installed separate vent systems for each tank that can be mechanically turned off and on with a small switch in the cockpit. Has worked well on my CJ, which in the past always fed much more from the right tank.

Warren Hill
N464TW

On Jul 27, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
[quote]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:51 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>


Unless I am mistaken, the post '89 52's with separate vent systems actually have 2 vents per tank. The standard inboard vent line and an outboard vent line on the top of each tank, which is capped off on the pre '89 airplanes, is used on post '89 models. Now if someone wanted to test a modified vent system for pre '89 airplanes, one could uncap the fitting on the fuel tanks and add a vent tube to each tank and exiting out of the bottom of the fuel cavity cover plate. Since this vent line is at the top of the tank AND the fact that the original tanks have the same 2 degree dihedral in them on the bottom side (inboard to outboard) as does the wing itself making the tank thicker on the inboard end, the outboard vent will tend to remain clear of fuel even if the tank is filled to the top of the filler neck. I might add a "restrictor" at the fitting at the flare on the top tank vent line so as to force a greater amount of air through the inboard (standard) vent tube. But the outboard vent line would certainly help alleviate the problem.


Cessna has had this asymmetric-feed problem in its planes that feed from both tanks at the same time for as long as I can remember. It is instructive to go back and look at all the changes they ended up making in an attempt to solve the problem. As I recall, they finally settled on fuel getting into the cross-tank vent line that ensured equal vent pressure to both tanks as the primary cause of tank imbalance. The result was a proliferation of check valves and extra vent lines, none of which really ever fixed the problem 100%


Anyway, spam-cans aside, Cessna has a LOT of data and a LOT of "solutions" to the problem. I suspect there is a lot to be learned there.
Personally I would prefer to add a fuel selector valve and go with separate vent systems for each tank. It is simpler and permits the pilot to manage tank balance, something we are already used to doing.


--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Which makes perfect sense Rob. I think modifying the earlier single
vent 52's to the configuration of the later airplanes would be much more
difficult than adding a vent line from the now capped-off fitting on the
top of the tanks. I also like the idea of a vent shut-off valve or
switch mechanism which gives positive control over which tank feeds.
Dennis

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 7/27/2011 9:57 AM, Rob Rowe wrote:
Quote:


Dennis,
Sounds like an interesting idea. As to the 89+ -52s ... I believe the 'standard inboard vent' is now just used for excess return fuel from the collector tank (with the cross piece port for the single belly vent tube blanked off) so it's no longer a vent in the conventional sense. Other than allowing some expansion cross flow into the other tank engine off. I'm probably flying my -52 tomorrow so I'll have a look-see to confirm whether the cross piece is blanked off or if I'm just having a senior moment.
Cheers, Rob
dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:
> Unless I am mistaken, the post '89 52's with separate vent systems
> actually have 2 vents per tank. The standard inboard vent line and an
> outboard vent line on the top of each tank, which is capped off on the
> pre '89 airplanes, is used on post '89 models. Now if someone wanted to
> test a modified vent system for pre '89 airplanes, one could uncap the
> fitting on the fuel tanks and add a vent tube to each tank and exiting
> out of the bottom of the fuel cavity cover plate. Since this vent line
> is at the top of the tank AND the fact that the original tanks have the
> same 2 degree dihedral in them on the bottom side (inboard to outboard)
> as does the wing itself making the tank thicker on the inboard end, the
> outboard vent will tend to remain clear of fuel even if the tank is
> filled to the top of the filler neck. I might add a "restrictor" at the
> fitting at the flare on the top tank vent line so as to force a greater
> amount of air through the inboard (standard) vent tube. But the
> outboard vent line would certainly help alleviate the problem.
>
> Dennis
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (cell)
> Skype: Yakguy1
> www.yak-52.com
>


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k7wx



Joined: 24 May 2010
Posts: 117

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

Brian,

The vents are 1/4 tubing at the wing tip and cut on a 45 degree angle, facing into the incident wind. So, rather than simply passively venting the tanks, while flying there is actually some small amount of positive pressure, which is either off or on, depending on the switch location. Simple and seems to work well.
Warren


On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
[quote]

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:52 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>


Which makes perfect sense Rob. I think modifying the earlier single vent 52's to the configuration of the later airplanes would be much more difficult than adding a vent line from the now capped-off fitting on the top of the tanks. I also like the idea of a vent shut-off valve or switch mechanism which gives positive control over which tank feeds.


Switching the vents on and off seems backward. Wouldn't adding a fuel selector valve be more efficacious? OTOH it would require more fabrication.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

Quote:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

What you say is true Brian. However, given the fact that the fuel
junction is somewhat similar to the CJ except that there is separate
fuel junction under the front seat with the flapper valves in it with
fuel hoses about 15-16" long from the fuel tanks to the junction, I
think it would be extremely difficult to install a fuel selector that
allows the fuel to gravity feed into the fuel junction as it does now.

Dennis

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 7/27/2011 12:31 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
Quote:


On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:52 AM, A. Dennis Savarese
<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>> wrote:


<dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net <mailto:dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>>

Which makes perfect sense Rob. I think modifying the earlier
single vent 52's to the configuration of the later airplanes would
be much more difficult than adding a vent line from the now
capped-off fitting on the top of the tanks. I also like the idea
of a vent shut-off valve or switch mechanism which gives positive
control over which tank feeds.
Switching the vents on and off seems backward. Wouldn't adding a fuel
selector valve be more efficacious? OTOH it would require more
fabrication.
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com <mailto:brian(at)lloyd.com>
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

*
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 11:28 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>


What you say is true Brian.  However, given the fact that the fuel junction is somewhat similar to the CJ except that there is separate fuel junction under the front seat with the flapper valves in it with fuel hoses about 15-16" long from the fuel tanks to the junction, I think it would be extremely difficult to install a fuel selector that allows the fuel to gravity feed into the fuel junction as it does now.


Huh. I was thinking CJ6A rather than Yak-52 but, OK, I see what you are saying. Remote the control to the valve? Just thinking aloud here.
I know that, when faced with fuel-feed imbalance in Cessnas, I just resorted to use the selector position for the tank with more fuel. That seemed to me to be a reasonable solution to the problem. Unfortunately that doesn't work in the C-150. Smile

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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CD 2.0



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

A selector valve would be a good solution to uneven fuel feeding problems, hands down the best solution to this problem - but switching the vents on and off, as Warren mentioned, in my opinion isn't a bad idea after all knowing the difficulties with installing a fuel selector valve in CJ's and Yak's... The main idea here is to avoid getting empty in one tank and wonder (at 3500 feet) if the full tank will take over or not Smile

... keep an eye on the tanks to check for imbalance and always watch the ball.... using rudder trim to correct for uneven fuel feed seems to be the method most used... but for long cross country trips to air shows, it may be safer setting the GPS scheduler alarm to sound every 15 minutes. When the alarm goes off, check for imbalance and do appropriate wing correction to minimize the problem... and it would be even better if we could simply switch to the fullest tank with the selector valve. Same goes when entering the pattern, switch to the fullest tank...

... I still think the lack of a fuel selector is a major design defect, especially when they where aware of this problem from the very first tests. If they were really concerned about the “complexity” of switching tanks they could have done what Cessna did long ago, a Fuel selector and a Both setting...

Carl

Quote:


Switching the vents on and off seems backward. Wouldn't adding a fuel selector valve be more efficacious? OTOH it would require more fabrication.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:24 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "CD 2.0" <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com (dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com)>

A selector valve would be a good solution to uneven fuel feeding problems, hands down the best solution to this problem - but switching the vents on and off, as Warren mentioned, in my opinion isn't a bad idea after all knowing the difficulties with installing a fuel selector valve in CJ's and Yak's...  The main idea here is to avoid getting empty in one tank and wonder (at 3500 feet) if the full tank will take over or not Smile


Hint: put the boost pump at the low-point in the system.
 
Quote:

.. keep an eye on the tanks to check for imbalance and always watch the ball....  using rudder trim to correct for uneven fuel feed seems to be the method most used... but for long cross country trips to air shows, it may be safer setting the GPS scheduler alarm to sound every 15 minutes. When the alarm goes off, check for imbalance and do appropriate wing correction to minimize the problem... and it would be even better if we could simply switch to the fullest tank with the selector valve. Same goes when entering the pattern, switch to the fullest tank...


You're a man after my own heart. Precisely what I was thinking.
 
Quote:

.. I still think the lack of a fuel selector is a major design defect, especially when they where aware of this problem from the very first tests. If they were really concerned about the “complexity” of switching tanks they could have done what Cessna did long ago, a Fuel selector and a Both setting...


We are definitely on the same page, Carl.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

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threein60(at)yahoo.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

I've found that peterbuilt trucks makes a pneumatic toggle switch that had electrical contacts. This way you can connect the toggle switches to a panel light. This way it would be very noticable if a vent was closed. I had been on board where the pilot forgot a vent was closed, collapsed the tank and flamed the engine out..

Larry Pine
N8181C
CJ6/m14p

Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 10:24 PM, CD 2.0 <dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> A selector valve would be a good solution to uneven fuel feeding problems,
> hands down the best solution to this problem - but switching the vents on
> and off, as Warren mentioned, in my opinion isn't a bad idea after all
> knowing the difficulties with installing a fuel selector valve in CJ's and
> Yak's... The main idea here is to avoid getting empty in one tank and
> wonder (at 3500 feet) if the full tank will take over or not Smile
>

Hint: put the boost pump at the low-point in the system.
>
> ... keep an eye on the tanks to check for imbalance and always watch the
> ball.... using rudder trim to correct for uneven fuel feed seems to be the
> method most used... but for long cross country trips to air shows, it may be
> safer setting the GPS scheduler alarm to sound every 15 minutes. When the
> alarm goes off, check for imbalance and do appropriate wing correction to
> minimize the problem... and it would be even better if we could simply
> switch to the fullest tank with the selector valve. Same goes when entering
> the pattern, switch to the fullest tank...
>

You're a man after my own heart. Precisely what I was thinking.
>
> ... I still think the lack of a fuel selector is a major design defect,
> especially when they where aware of this problem from the very first tests.
> If they were really concerned about the “complexity” of switching tanks they
> could have done what Cessna did long ago, a Fuel selector and a Both
> setting...
>

We are definitely on the same page, Carl.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Larry Pine <threein60(at)yahoo.com (threein60(at)yahoo.com)>

I've found that peterbuilt trucks makes a pneumatic toggle switch that had electrical contacts. This way you can connect the toggle switches to a panel light.  This way it would be very noticable if a vent was closed.  I had been on board where the pilot forgot a vent was closed, collapsed the tank and flamed the engine out..


This is why I am not a fan of messing with tank venting. I have experienced a collapsed tank due to vent system failure. The only reason it did not result in an "incident" is that I noticed irregular behavior of the fuel level indicator and landed quickly. Normally the gauge doesn't show a sudden and steady increase in fuel in the selected tank. The tank collapsed from the bottom up, pushing up the fuel sender float. It was my "full" tank that failed. Fortunately there was sufficient fuel in my not-full tank for a safe conclusion of my flight.


So, I would not willingly block a vent for any reason.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

[quote][b]


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wlannon(at)persona.ca
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:51 pm    Post subject: fuel flow from tanks Reply with quote

[quote] ---

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