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Landing RV-8

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m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:21 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Hi everyone,

My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how 

to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel 

landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I 

should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow 

Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor 

if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the 

fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little 

rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.



Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your 

approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?



Thanks,

Matt

Larry Bowen

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:35 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.  On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 Hi everyone,

 My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

  

 Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 

 Thanks,

 Matt 

 

 ====================================

 get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress...

d-burton(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane since 

100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the 

designer of the RV8, Van himself:



"I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently

land safely without a mastery of low speed control.

While this point may be argued, the traditional landing

objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum

air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of

Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for

wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict

my above statement of the "accepted" preferred

landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook

dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher

touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation

could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing

because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that

they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."



He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments 

about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factory, 

with no incidents.  His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for the 

conditions.  I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while he 

was landing once.  Amazing.

rice737(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Hey Matt, 

 

I have about 300 hours in my RV8, and I am a 50/50 guy.  Many people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3 pointer because you are going slower at touch down, and I can not disagree with that.  I'f I want to land short, I usually set up for a 3 pointer.  And yes, you can hit the tailwheel first, even more likely if you have a passenger in the back, not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up.  If I have plenty of runway, I set up for a wheel landing, as it is easy to grease on in that position.  Visability over the nose should not be a factor in the -8 in the three pointer, unless you are in the back seat of course,  and if you can land it from there well, you shouldn't have any problem in any tailwheel airplane.  

 

Paul

RV8

Flying Siren

 

[quote] From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400

 

 --> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Hi everyone,

 My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how 

 to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel 

 landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I 

 should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow 

 Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor 

 if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the 

 fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little 

 rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

 

 Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your 

 approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 

 Thanks,

 ========================

n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings.  I am on a 2155' grass strip.  The only time I did wheel landings was when I was carrying too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps and carried more speed.



I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on final, and bleed down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi everyone,

 My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

 

 Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 

 Thanks,

 Matt

HCRV6(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:24 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who  prefers wheel landings, seems a bit strange.  I have over 880 hours in  my RV-6 and 99% of my landings are three point (at least that's what I  intended).  I did not install the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find  it difficult to do a decent wheel landing without at least one hop.



RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.

 

 Harry Crosby

RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours



Harry Crosby

RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 5:18:27 AM

Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8



--> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>



Hi everyone,

My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how 

to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel 

landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I 

should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow 

Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor 

if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the 

fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little 

rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.



Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your 

approach speeds? T=                     &==





 [quote][b]

Bubblehead

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Landing RV-8

I have about 400 hours on my RV-8 and when I first flew it, wheel landings were a lot easier and more consistent.  It just seemed to squeak on with the tail slightly low and just above a stall, especially when flying solo.  After about 50 landings or so I started working on 3-point landings.  It just gives a little different look over the nose and I was initially a little high on full flare and would bounce a little.



Now I use either one depending on conditions.  Cross wind and gusty I like wheel landings and other times full stall.



When a passenger is in the back the 3-point landing is a little touchy.  It seems to stall quicker and with less warning but still very controllable throughout the landing.



In summary, both are very doable, and I think you should learn and practice both with the CG in many locations.  It never hurts to have more options to chose from.

_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD

m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:14 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

 I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

 The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel  landing.

 Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this 

 Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  Matt,

 The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so what works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The 8 has spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all have Whitman style tapered rods. 

 In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out that the tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the wheels when they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying interesting and less so when you go slower. So lots  of them prefer a min speed 3 pt to minimize capital losses and hurt pride.

 If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you basically have to fly the right attitude on to  the pavement and continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.

 You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think this "belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the other alternative of doing a wheelie.

 So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies, touching down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down pat(on pavement) you can have a butter smooth landing every single time which, to me, is less wear and tear than the regular  crow hopping and tail first alternatives.

 Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail first becomes very easy when you need it.

 I personally like wheelies because you get to pick more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the "wait for it" full stall landing.

 The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with the elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator authority, put the tail down, stick in your gut, and  start breaking again. This is an advanced technique that is right out of stick and rudder, nobody teaches it anymore but it can be done and end up with very short landing rolls while still doing a wheelie. The advantage here is that you get more control over  where you touch down by virtue of doing a wheelie and then if you need to you can brake aggressively and end up with landing roll that is very similar to a 3 pt min speed roll. 

 Bill

 N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based

 rv-8.blogspot.com 

 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server <rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)> wrote:

 [quote] *

  =========================

   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

  =========================

 Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the

 two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest formatted

 in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes

 and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version

 of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor

 such as Notepad or with a web browser.

 HTML Version:

    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2011-10-11&Archive=RV

 Text Version:

    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2011-10-11&Archive=RV

  ================================================

   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive

  ================================================

           ----------------------------------------------------------

                           RV-List Digest Archive

                                      ---

                     Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7

           ----------------------------------------------------------

 Today's Message Index:

 ----------------------

     1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8  (Matt Tucciarone)

     2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Larry Bowen)

     3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (David Burton)

     4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Paul Rice)

     5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Michael Kraus)

     6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (HCRV6(at)comcast.net (HCRV6(at)comcast.net))

     7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator  (Denis Walsh)

 ________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________

 Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US

 From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)>

 Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 Hi everyone,

 My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how

 to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel

 landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I

 should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow

 Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor

 if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the

 fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little

 rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

 Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your

 approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 Thanks,

 Matt

 ________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________

 Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US

 Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowenaero.com (larry(at)bowenaero.com)>

 Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.

 On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 > >

 >

 > Hi everyone,

 > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how

 > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel

 > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I

 > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow

 > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor

 > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the

 > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a little

 > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

 >

 > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your

 > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 >

 > Thanks,

 > Matt

 >

 >

 ________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________

 Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US

 From: "David Burton" <d-burton(at)comcast.net (d-burton(at)comcast.net)>

 Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel airplane since

 100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the

 designer of the RV8, Van himself:

 "I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently

 land safely without a mastery of low speed control.

 While this point may be argued, the traditional landing

 objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum

 air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of

 Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for

 wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict

 my above statement of the "accepted" preferred

 landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook

 dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher

 touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation

 could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing

 because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that

 they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."

 He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and comments

 about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the factory,

 with no incidents.  His point is that pilots tend to land too fast for the

 conditions.  I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A while he

 was landing once.  Amazing.

 ________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________

 Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US

 From: Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com (rice737(at)msn.com)>

 Subject: RE: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 Hey Matt=2C  I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50 guy.  Man

 y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3 pointer beca

 use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree with that.

  I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer.  And yes=2C

  you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a passenge

 r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet up.  If I

 have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is easy to g

 rease on in that position.  Visability over the nose should not be a factor

  in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat of cours

 e=2C  and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have any prob

 lem in any tailwheel airplane.   PaulRV8Flying Siren

  > From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)

 > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 > Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400

 >

 m>

 >

 > Hi everyone=2C

 > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn ho

 w

 > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wh

 eel

 > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I

 > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow

 > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instruct

 or

 > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the

 > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt a littl

 e

 > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

 >

 > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your

 > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 >

 > Thanks=2C

 > Matt

 >

 >

 ===========

 ===========

 ===========

 ===========

 >

 >

 >

 ________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________

 Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US

 Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net (n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net)>

 I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point landings.  I am on

 a 2155' grass strip.  The only time I did wheel landings was when I was carrying

 too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less flaps and

 carried more speed.

 I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on final, and bleed

 down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com (m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 >

 > Hi everyone,

 > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to learn how to

 land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about getting wheel landings

 (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I should be

 doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow Aventura II seaplane

 and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could just try

 a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you have a lot

 less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the tail wheel at

 my grass strip.

 >

 > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What are your approach

 speeds? Touchdown speeds?

 >

 > Thanks,

 > Matt

 >

 >

 >

 >

 ________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________

 Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US

 From: HCRV6(at)comcast.net (HCRV6(at)comcast.net)

 Subject: Re: RV-List: Landing RV-8

 Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have who prefers wheel

 landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6 and 99% of

 my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I did not install

 the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a decent wheel

 landing without at least one hop.

 RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.

 Harry Crosby

 RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

 Harry Crosby

 RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

 ---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

The C190/195 and C170 series have a Wittman spring steel gear of flat 

spring steel. The tubular gear of later model Cessnas and RV was a later 

development. A C170B (the model I have ~700 hours in) can be landed 

equally well with wheel or 3 pt landings, and preference will depend on 

recency of experience, wind and loading. It seemed to ebb and flow which 

I preferred. Can't comment on RV landings as the only RV's I've had the 

pleasure of flying were nose wheel.



On 10/12/2011 8:16 AM, Bill Judge wrote:

[quote] Matt,

 The RV-8 has a different gear configuration than the -4, -6 and -7 so 

 what works well in those planes doesn't necessarily apply in a -8. The 

 8 has spring gear like a citibria or a C-170 while all the others all 

 have Whitman style tapered rods.



 In talking to people who fly the tapered rod type gear you find out 

 that the tapered rods have an issue with changing the direction of the 

 wheels when they get compressed which makes tailwheel flying 

 interesting and less so when you go slower. So lots of them prefer a 

 min speed 3 pt to minimize capital losses and hurt pride.



 If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many times: the 

 angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall the wing. It 

 seems like everything has to be just right to get a smooth 3pt, you 

 basically have to fly the right attitude on to the pavement and 

 continue to fly that attitude during the roll as opposed to the C-170 

 and Citibria where you can get down to a foot off the ground and 

 totally get away with gradually putting the stick in your gut and not 

 bouncing at all.



 You could do the sailplane technique and land tail first but I think 

 this "belly flop" type landing is abusive and so we're left with the 

 other alternative of doing a wheelie.



 So, unless I'm landing on a rough strip I do tail low wheelies, 

 touching down at around 60 knots. After you get the technique down 

 pat(on pavement) you can have a butter smooth landing every single 

 time which, to me, is less wear and tear than the regular crow hopping 

 and tail first alternatives.



 Once you get the technique of wheelies down pat doing a 3pt or a tail 

 first becomes very easy when you need it.



 I personally like wheelies because you get to pick 

 more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to the 

 "wait for it" full stall landing.



 The kicker is that once you're really on your game you can brake 

 aggressively just after touch down while managing the attitude with 

 the elevator then stop the braking when you start to lose elevator 

 authority, put the tail down, stick in your gut, and start breaking 

 again. This is an advanced technique that is right out of stick and 

 rudder, nobody teaches it anymore but it can be done and end up with 

 very short landing rolls while still doing a wheelie. The advantage 

 here is that you get more control over where you touch down by virtue 

 of doing a wheelie and then if you need to you can brake aggressively 

 and end up with landing roll that is very similar to a 3 pt min speed 

 roll.



 Bill

 N84WJ, RV-8, 665 hrs, KSEE based

 rv-8.blogspot.com <http://rv-8.blogspot.com>

 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:00 AM, RV-List Digest Server 

 <rv-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com>> wrote:



     *



      =========================

       Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

      =========================



     Today's complete RV-List Digest can also be found in either of the

     two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest

     formatted

     in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked

     Indexes

     and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII

     version

     of the RV-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor

     such as Notepad or with a web browser.



     HTML Version:



     http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV

     <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV>



     Text Version:



     http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV

     <http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 11-10-11&Archive=RV>

      ================================================

       EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive

      ================================================

               ----------------------------------------------------------

                               RV-List Digest Archive

                                          ---

                         Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/11: 7

               ----------------------------------------------------------

     Today's Message Index:

     ----------------------



         1. 05:21 AM - Landing RV-8  (Matt Tucciarone)

         2. 05:35 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Larry Bowen)

         3. 06:20 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (David Burton)

         4. 06:54 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Paul Rice)

         5. 09:33 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (Michael Kraus)

         6. 10:24 AM - Re: Landing RV-8  (HCRV6(at)comcast.net

     <mailto:HCRV6(at)comcast.net>)

         7. 08:14 PM - Stall warning vane tone generator  (Denis Walsh)



     ________________________________  Message 1

      _____________________________________

     Time: 05:21:52 AM PST US

     From: "Matt Tucciarone" <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com

     <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>>

     Subject: Landing RV-8

     Hi everyone,

     My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to

     learn how

     to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about

     getting wheel

     landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I

     should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow

     Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my

     instructor

     if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not

     like the

     fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I felt

     a little

     rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.



     Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What

     are your

     approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?



     Thanks,

     Matt

     ________________________________  Message 2

      _____________________________________

     Time: 05:35:01 AM PST US

     Subject: Re: Landing RV-8

     From: Larry Bowen <larry(at)bowenaero.com <mailto:larry(at)bowenaero.com>>



     Most RV-8 pilots, including this one, prefer wheel landings.

     On Oct 11, 2011 8:22 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"

     <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:



     > >

     >

     > Hi everyone,

     > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to

     learn how

     > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about

     getting wheel

     > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are

     telling me I

     > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in

     a slow

     > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my

     instructor

     > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not

     like the

     > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I

     felt a little

     > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

     >

     > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What

     are your

     > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

     >

     > Thanks,

     > Matt

     >

     >



     ________________________________  Message 3

      _____________________________________

     Time: 06:20:53 AM PST US

     From: "David Burton" <d-burton(at)comcast.net

     <mailto:d-burton(at)comcast.net>>

     Subject: Re: Landing RV-8

     While I can't give you any advice about landing a tailwheel

     airplane since

     100% of my time is in tricycle gear, here is a pearl of wisdom of the

     designer of the RV8, Van himself:



     "I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can consistently

     land safely without a mastery of low speed control.

     While this point may be argued, the traditional landing

     objective is that of contacting the ground at or near minimum

     air speed. (A survey in the October 2010 issue of

     Sport Aviation showed a 52/48 percent preference for

     wheel landings over three-point landing. This would contradict

     my above statement of the "accepted" preferred

     landing technique. It could mean that while the textbook

     dictate is the 3-point landing, user preference is a higher

     touch down speed "wheel" landing. If so, one explanation

     could be that most pilots prefer the wheel landing

     because it is smoother for them, or it could mean that

     they lack the skills or confidence to do 3-point landings."



     He goes on to discuss the gear failures experienced by RVs and

     comments

     about the thousands of demo flights off the old grass strip at the

     factory,

     with no incidents.  His point is that pilots tend to land too fast

     for the

     conditions.  I had the experience of walking! alongside the RV-9A

     while he

     was landing once.  Amazing.

     ________________________________  Message 4

      _____________________________________

     Time: 06:54:52 AM PST US

     From: Paul Rice <rice737(at)msn.com <mailto:rice737(at)msn.com>>

     Subject: RE: Landing RV-8

     Hey Matt=2C  I have about 300 hours in my RV8=2C and I am a 50/50

     guy.  Man

     y people would say that you are in a less risky spot doing a 3

     pointer beca

     use you are going slower at touch down=2C and I can not disagree

     with that.

      I'f I want to land short=2C I usually set up for a 3 pointer.

      And yes=2C

      you can hit the tailwheel first=2C even more likely if you have a

     passenge

     r in the back=2C not a problem if you don't stall it from 5 feet

     up.  If I

     have plenty of runway=2C I set up for a wheel landing=2C as it is

     easy to g

     rease on in that position.  Visability over the nose should not be

     a factor

      in the -8 in the three pointer=2C unless you are in the back seat

     of cours

     e=2C  and if you can land it from there well=2C you shouldn't have

     any prob

     lem in any tailwheel airplane.   PaulRV8Flying Siren

     > From: m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>

     > To: rv-list(at)matronics.com <mailto:rv-list(at)matronics.com>

     > Subject: Landing RV-8

     > Date: Tue=2C 11 Oct 2011 08:18:27 -0400

     >

     m>

     >

     > Hi everyone=2C

     > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to

     learn ho

     w

     > to land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about

     getting wh

     eel

     > landings (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are

     telling me I

     > should be doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in

     a slow

     > Aventura II seaplane and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my

     instruct

     or

     > if we could just try a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not

     like the



     > fact that you have a lot less visibility over the nose and I

     felt a littl

     e

     > rough on the tail wheel at my grass strip.

     >

     > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What

     are your



     > approach speeds? Touchdown speeds?

     >

     > Thanks=2C

     > Matt

     >

     >

     ===========

     ===========

     ===========

     ===========

     >

     >

     >

     ________________________________  Message 5

      _____________________________________

     Time: 09:33:47 AM PST US

     Subject: Re: Landing RV-8

     From: Michael Kraus <n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net

     <mailto:n223rv(at)wolflakeairport.net>>

     I had an RV-4 for 9 years and 95% of the time I did 3 point

     landings.  I am on

     a 2155' grass strip.  The only time I did wheel landings was when

     I was carrying

     too much speed or in gusty/ cross wind conditions when I used less

     flaps and

     carried more speed.



     I'd typically go 90 mph on downwind, 80 mph on base, 70 mph on

     final, and bleed

     down to stall speed as I cross the numbers....



     Sent from my iPhone



     On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, "Matt Tucciarone"

     <m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com <mailto:m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:



     >

     > Hi everyone,

     > My name is Matt and I bought an RV-8 last month and am trying to

     learn how to

     land it with a local tail wheel instructor. I am just about

     getting wheel landings

     (the kind the instructor prefers) but others are telling me I

     should be

     doing 3 pointers with this plane. I have 300 hours in a slow

     Aventura II seaplane

     and I always landed 3 points. So I asked my instructor if we could

     just try

     a 3 pointer in the RV. I did it but did not like the fact that you

     have a lot

     less visibility over the nose and I felt a little rough on the

     tail wheel at

     my grass strip.

     >

     > Any comments for a newbie? How do most of you land your RV? What

     are your approach

     speeds? Touchdown speeds?

     >

     > Thanks,

     > Matt

     >

     >

     >

     >

     ________________________________  Message 6

      _____________________________________

     Time: 10:24:10 AM PST US

     From: HCRV6(at)comcast.net <mailto:HCRV6(at)comcast.net>

     Subject: Re: Landing RV-8



     Can't help wondering what kind of tail wheel instructor you have

     who prefers wheel

     landings, seems a bit strange. I have over 880 hours in my RV-6

     and 99% of

     my landings are three point (at least that's what I intended). I

     did not install

     the wooden gear leg stiffeners and I find it difficult to do a

     decent wheel

     landing without at least one hop.



     RV-8's may have different landing characteristics vs the RV-6.

     Harry Crosby

     RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours

     Harry Crosby

     RV-6 N16CX, 883 hours



     ---

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: Landing RV-8

On 10-12-2011 15:16, Bill Judge wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		  

       

       

       If I land my -8 in a 3 pt attitude it will "crow hop" many         times: the angle of the 3pt attitude isn't steep enough to stall         the wing. It seems like everything has to be just right to get a         smooth 3pt, you basically have to fly the right attitude on to         the pavement and continue to fly that attitude during the roll         as opposed to the C-170 and Citibria where you can get down to a         foot off the ground and totally get away with gradually putting         the stick in your gut and not bouncing at all.

     	
     

     Is what you describe true with the flaps down or up?  If up, try a     couple notches (half flaps) and see if that helps.  With the flaps     down, that portion of the wings have an "increased" angle of attack     (relative chord I think it's called) and reach the critical angle a     bit sooner than the rest of the wing.  At least it sounds good in     theory.  I've used this technique to good effect in Cessna 140s that     have been converterted from the original Scott 2000 tailwheel to the     3200, which is, of course, a bigger wheel and thus lower angle of     attack in the three point position.

     

     

     

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         

       

       

       

       

       I personally like wheelies because you get to pick         more accurately where the wheels will first touch as opposed to         the "wait for it" full stall landing.

     	
     

     No comment, pro or con   I can get my airplane within 50 or 100     feet of intended spot when I really need to (ie 1500 foot strip     carved out of the trees.

     

     

      	  Quote: 	
		         

       

       The kicker is ...edited here... and start breaking again. 

       

     	
     

     I HOPE you mean braking (stopping) rather than breaking ($$$)  

     

     Scott

     Corben Junior Ace (a whole different league than the RV!)

     

     [img]cid:part1.02060006.04060409(at)bloomer.net[/img]

sig.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

6 KB

Viewed:

5540 Time(s)

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: Landing RV-8

Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast?Â  With listed stall speeds of     51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X     Vso)???Â  Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....

     

     

     

     On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:     [quote]                           Thanks Bill and others who have been               commenting.

               

               I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv               and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I               have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

               

               The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheelÂ                landing.

               

               Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this 

               

               Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> (bjudge(at)gmail.com) wrote:

               

             

           

     [b]

m.tucciarone(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: Landing RV-8

Yes it does sound a bit fast but it seems to get pretty sloppy below 70.  Like I said, I am still working it out. With enough practice, I will eventually  get it.

 I do feel like I am learning to fly all over again.

  

 Matt

  

    

  From: Scott (acepilot(at)bloomer.net) 

 Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 5:58 PM

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: Landing RV-8

  



 Doesn't  80 knots sound a bit fast?  With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would  expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)???  Of course, one has  to take into account any gusts, etc....



On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt  Tucciarone wrote:  [quote]      Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.



I    did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just    a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80    knots.



The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel     landing.



Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this 



Bill Judge    mailto:bjudge(at)gmail.com (bjudge(at)gmail.com)    wrote:







href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: Landing RV-8

Two comments:

1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and static system position error.  The sum of these errors may be more than 10 kt on some aircraft.  Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one aircraft may be completely wrong on another aircraft.  Be careful taking someone else's numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for you in your aircraft.

2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have historically used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both speeds measured in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has been a recent change to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way the stall speed is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed).  Most aircraft have large static source position errors at the stall speed, and the sense of the usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than the calibrated speed.  I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low indicated airspeed at the stall.  If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the indicated stall speed I would be much too slow in that aircraft, and would risk having a hard landing if there was the slightest wind gust.

We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is actually quite a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly high.  But 30% of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of a 100 mph stall speed.  A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose 20 mph on final, so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin to allow for the gusts.

In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your aircraft is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day.  Reduce the approach speed by one or two mph each time.  The plane will talk to you, and you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is.  Now, for "every day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the demonstrated lowest practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot inattention, or minor wind gusts.  In flight testing, we have to demonstrate that the aircraft can be landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less than the recommended one.  Operators typically add another 5 kts over the recommended speed, so they are actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown to be safe during flight testing.

And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even more speed. 

And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights.  And we also know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at forward CG than it is at aft CG.  Note: the aircraft will handle differently at forward and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different approach speeds at different CGs.

--

Kevin Horton

RV-8

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast?  With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)???  Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....

 On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:

> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

> 

> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

> 

> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel  landing.

> 

> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this 

> 

> Bill Judge <bjudge(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: Landing RV-8

Just a note to say I think I learn more about flying airplanes from Kevin Horton than anyone I know, and just wanted to thank him publicly for outstanding information.



Do not archive



Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

[quote]From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com>

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 23:01:11 GMT+00:00

Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Landing RV-8

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

Dale Ensing

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 571
Location: Aero Plantation Weddington NC

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: Landing RV-8

Well said Bob and I second  that! Thank you Kevin for your contribution to the RV crowd over the years.

Dale Ensing

RV-6A

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 12, 2011, at 20:41, "bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)" <bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net (bcollinsrv7a(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]Just a note to say I think I learn more about flying airplanes from Kevin Horton than anyone I know, and just wanted to thank him publicly for outstanding information.

Do not archive

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Kevin Horton <khorton01(at)rogers.com (khorton01(at)rogers.com)>

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com (rv-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 23:01:11 GMT+00:00

Subject: Re: Re: Landing RV-8

--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton 

Two comments:

1. Each homebuilt aircraft has its own, individual ASI instrument error and static system position error.  The sum of these errors may be more than 10 kt on some aircraft.  Thus the final approach IAS that is perfect for one aircraft may be completely wrong on another aircraft.  Be careful taking someone else's numbers as the gospel and assuming that they will work for you in your aircraft.

2. The 1.3 Vso "rule" is not universally correct. Large aircraft have historically used an approach speed of 1.3 times the stall speed, with both speeds measured in calibrated airspeed, not indicated airspeed (there has been a recent change to 1.23 times the stall speed, but they changed the way the stall speed is measured, so the approach speeds haven't really changed).  Most aircraft have large static source position errors at the stall speed, and the sense of the usual error is to make the indicated speed lower than the calibrated speed.  I used to fly a C182 that had a ridiculously low indicated airspeed at the stall.  If I were to fly final at 1.3 times the indicated stall speed I would be much too slow in that aircraft, and would risk having a hard landing if there was the slightest wind gust.

We need to keep in mind that this 30% margin over the stall speed is actually quite a few knots on a big aircraft, as the stall speed is fairly high.  But 30% of a 50 mph stall speed is a much smaller margin than 30% of a 100 mph stall speed.  A 20 mph wind gust will cause both aircraft to lose 20 mph on final, so the smaller aircraft may need more than 30% speed margin to allow for the gusts.

In my opinion, the best way to figure out the best approach speed for your aircraft is to simply try approaches at ever slower speeds on a calm day.  Reduce the approach speed by one or two mph each time.  The plane will talk to you, and you'll figure out where the lowest practical approach speed is.  Now, for "every day" flying, you should add a small buffer above the demonstrated lowest practical approach speed, to allow for a bit of pilot inattention, or minor wind gusts.  In flight testing, we have to demonstrate that the aircraft can be landed safely when the approach speed is 5 kt less than the recommended one.  Operators typically add another 5 kts over the recommended speed, so they are actually flying 10 kt faster than was shown to be safe during flight testing.

And of course if the winds are gusting, you all know you need to add even more speed. 

And we know that you need a higher approach speed at higher weights.  And we also know that the stall speed (and thus the required approach) is higher at forward CG than it is at aft CG.  Note: the aircraft will handle differently at forward and aft CG, and these handling changes may require different approach speeds at different CGs.

--

Kevin Horton

RV-8

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

On 2011-10-12, at 17:58 , Scott wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Doesn't 80 knots sound a bit fast?  With listed stall speeds of 51-58 MPH, I would expect final to be at about 60-65 knots (1.3 X Vso)???  Of course, one has to take into account any gusts, etc....

 On 10-12-2011 17:09, Matt Tucciarone wrote:

> Thanks Bill and others who have been commenting.

> 

> I did get some time in a Citabria before going to the rv and it is similar. Just a little slower on approach. I have been coming in around final at around 80 knots.

> 

> The best landing I have made to date was a tail low wheel  landing.

> 

> Hopefully soon I will get the hang of this 

> 

> Bill Judge  wrote:

> 

http://www===================================================="http://forums.matronics.com">http:/==========================ef="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri=========================================

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[b]

_________________
Dale Ensing
RV-6A
Aero Plantation
Weddington NC

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