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Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue
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aircarepros(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:47 am Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Sounds like a bracket adjustment/reconfig is in order then.  Pretty sure

that the 12227 is only a single groove.  I have a 12226 here and it is

definitely a single posing as a 2 groove.  I'd be interested in knowing if

the B&C is better aligned with that ring gear, or if the change in the drive

pulley is what is causing the mis-alignments.  There used to be no

difference in at least these two alternator offsets.



--

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Why not just machine a new set of spacers?  Keep the existing bracket.



The alternator just need to move aft about a 1/4 inch.  The bracket would allow that.



Jim Combs



Do Not Archive



 On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 11:32 AM, rleffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com (rv(at)thelefflers.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "rleffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com (rv(at)thelefflers.com)>

 

 So I have had conversations with Vans, Lycoming, and Plane Power.

 

 Vans passed the buck even though they made the change to go with the dual pulley flywheel about two years ago from what I can tell.

 

 In talking with Lycoming, they were unaware of the issue with the Plane Power alternator not aligning with the dual pulley flywheel.  It has been escalated to their engineering department and I'm awaiting a response from them at the moment.  The mentioned that 2/3's of the YIO-540s sold to Vans are going to Brazil.

  

 Plane Power states that there alternator will not align with the dual pulley flywheel from Lycoming.   They are anxious to resolve this issue.  Both Vans and Lycoming are big customers of theirs.  They were going to call both Vans and Lycoming today to discuss the details. (Jesse they were curious as to how you got your's to align without modification)

  

 At the moment, there appears to be two solutions.

 

 1.  Van's must indicate an option to choose whether or not you need a single or dual pulley flywheel.

 2.  Plane Power must fabricate a new bracket for the dual pulley flywheel.

 

 Both Lycoming and Plan Power seemed frustrated since Van's only wants to order a single sku from them.   It appears that Van's made this change, but didn't coordinate with both company's engineering departments to ensure that everything worked.

  

 At this point in time, I'm awaiting responses from all three vendors to see how the choose to resolve this issue.  I'll keep everyone posted.

 

 bob

 

 --------

 Bob Leffler

 N410BL - FWF

 RV-10 #40684

 http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=354679#354679

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

Jim Combs

Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Machine the spacers NOT the pulley(s).



On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:09 AM,  <capsteve(at)iflyrv10.com (capsteve(at)iflyrv10.com)> wrote:

[quote]         Bob,

     Seems to me that the easiest fix would be to machine the  difference from the back of the alternator pulley to bring the belt into  alignment. 

 Whether there is a spacer, or if the pulley has a one piece boss, should be  easier and cheaper than hunting down a new flywheel..

 Take a look, if you need it machined and don’t have a quick resource  locally , take a measurement and send it this way.

  

 (one other thought is that you may be able to flip the alt pulley  if  it has a boss and place an appropriate new spacer under it to correct your  issues. 

 just make sure there is enough thread on the alt shaft for the nut)  (assuming it has a keyway rather than a taper )

  

 Steve DiNieri 

  

    

  From: Bob Leffler (rv(at)thelefflers.com) 

 Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 5:36 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment  Issue

  



   

I’ve been talking with Dick Carmichael at Plane Power about  an alignment issue on my RV-10 between the pulley on the Plane Power 60a  alternator and the pulley that came with my IO-540-D4A5, which were both  purchased through Van’s.  I’ve attached a photo for review.  In the  photo, I’ve also placed a square against the back of the Lycoming  pulley. 

  

As you can plainly see the alternator belt is out of  alignment.  In talking with Dick, he stated that this is due to the dual  belted pulley that came with my engine.  He further stated that he couldn’t  guarantee that the belt would stay on and it clearly would have a shortened life  due to the misalignment. 

  

Since there are no user adjustments for this alignment with  the Boss mount, I’m being told by Plane Power to use a single belt pulley on the  engine. 

  

Is this the standard pulley for an IO-540-D4A5?    Plane Power is giving me the indication that this is not the case.  Is  there the possibility that the incorrect part was substituted by  Lycoming? 

  

Has anyone else run into this problem?  If so, what did  you do? 

  

Thanks, 

  

bob



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[b]

_________________
RV-10 -> N312F - Flying as of 12/2008

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Nope, the LW-12227 is as Wayne described.  I have the same one.



I only know of one data point at the moment that has the same version of

engine.  He mentioned he didn't have an alignment issue with his B&C.



--

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

It wouldn't make much sense that if the big difference is the large pulley/ring gear, and by changing that part, you would only screw up one type of alternator.  If the plane power and B&C had the belt in the same alignment plane before, then changing only the large pulley type should wreck the alignment of both alternators the same, unless there are some very strange other engine case factors at work.

My bet is that there is a larger variation in large pulleys more than just the single and the double.

Tim



On Oct 11, 2011, at 6:48 PM, "Bob Leffler" <rv(at)thelefflers.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Nope, the LW-12227 is as Wayne described.  I have the same one.

 

 I only know of one data point at the moment that has the same version of

 engine.  He mentioned he didn't have an alignment issue with his B&C.

 

 --

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

I'm almost glad i'm not alone! 



Same thing happened to me. I ordered my engine from Vans with the dual groove ring gear because of my A/C compressor.



Talked to PlanePower at OSH, and they told me to just have a machinist grind down from the spacer on one end, and use a washer on the other.



Haven't done that yet, but it would be awesome if PlanePower provided the correct spacer.



There may be another problem though. The dual groove ring gear i got from Lycoming had two different types of groves. One V shape and the other a V shape with a square bottom. Bill  at Airflow Systems machined them to the correct shape so I can use the standard belts.



The other smaller problem is that the spacers are glued together onto the alternator, which may not be so much fun to remove.



If anyone finds a solution to this, please post it on here.



Lenny

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:50 am Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Welcomed to the club Lenny.  You are the third person that I'm aware of with

this situation.  We need to identify more if we can.  All three vendors

stated that this is new information to them.   Van's made this change over a

year ago, so there should be quite a few out there.  



Perhaps the others just machined the alternator and moved on?   That's not a

route I prefer to go down.  I'm looking to Van's to make us whole.  They

specified this recent change of the flywheel without coordination with Plane

Power.



It would be interested to understand what the guys in Brazil are doing,

since they are the reason for the change.  Obviously, they aren't using

Plane Power alternators.  I'm also curious as to what A/C solution they are

using.  That second V groove belt seems problematic to me.



I sent another round of photos to Lycoming last night, per their request.

As I get more feedback, I'll pass it along.  I may also post to VAF to see

if I can attempt to identify how many of us are in this situation.   Van's

isn't talking at the moment.



bob



--

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

I just posted this on VAF in an attempt to see how many folks are in the same situation.



A little over a year or so ago, Van's had Lycoming change the flywheel to a LW-12227 to accomodate a dual belt system to support both the alternator and air conditioning.  This part has the alternator belt on the rear and a V shaped groove in front for the A/C.



Myself and several others that purchased a YIO-540-D4A5 and the Firewall Forward kit from Van's have noticed an alignment issue.   The Plane Power 60a alternator supplied in the FWF kit from Van's has the alternator about 3/16" forward and prevents proper alignment of the belt.



Plane Power has stated that none of their alternators will work with a dual belted flywheel.



Van's, Plane Power, and Lycoming are currently looking into the issue, so I'm not looking for alternative or creative solutions to this situation.  I'm going to let the three companies work through the engineering and come back with a resolution.



What I am looking for is to identify anyone that purchased a YIO-540-D4A5 from Van's in the last two years and the answers to the following questions.   



1. Do you have a LW-12227 flywheel or another part (i.e. single belted)?   

2. Do you have a Plane Power alternator?  

3. If you have a Plane Power alternator and a LW-12227 did you have an alignment issue?

4. If you have a LW-12227 and another brand alternator, did you have an alignment issue?

The reason I'm collecting this data is all three companies apparently were caught off guard on this issue and claimed to have just heard about it.  I'm skeptical that if this Van's specified configuration has been sold for over year, there have to have been others experiencing similiar issues.   If not, I want to attempt to understand why?



If you don't want your comments to be made public, please PM or email me.



thanks,



bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

 	  Quote: 	
		  [quote="Tim Olson"]It wouldn't make much sense that if the big difference is the large pulley/ring gear, and by changing that part, you would only screw up one type of alternator.  If the plane power and B&C had the belt in the same alignment plane before, then changing only the large pulley type should wreck the alignment of both alternators the same, unless there are some very strange other engine case factors at work.

My bet is that there is a larger variation in large pulleys more than just the single and the double.

Tim

	






You are right about variations in the dual belt pulleys, Tim. The one I have on my C4B5 for the Flightline AC air conditioning is part number LW 10184 and was supplied by Flightline AC when I bought the AC kit. No alignment issues with a B&C that I used to have and none with the National Air Parts alternator I now have. Both grooves on my pulley are the same. BTW, I changed to the new Flightline AC mounting bracket that moves the alternator back over to the right side of the engine and puts the compressor on the left. This change was due to bearing failure in the tensioner pulleys in the old setup.

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

I just got a call from Lycoming.  They now agree that there is an alignment issue with the LW-12227 and Plane Power's 60a alternator.   They are currently working with Plane Power on how to best resolve the issue.  They are also reaching out to the mutual customer in Brazil to understand what alternator they are using.  They asked to give them a few days to coordinate with everyone.   I'll provide updates as I get them.



I just wish that Van's would step up and take leadership here instead of passing the buck to Lycoming and Plane Power.



bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

To summarize what I believe happened that has not been confirmed by any of the three companies involved.   Van's attempted to respond to a large customer and many other RV-10 builders that are installing air conditioning in their aircraft, requested Lycoming to switch the ring gear on the YIO-540-D4A5 that Van's resells to a dual pulley gear.   Lycoming compiled with the request and supplied a LW-12227 ring gear. Lycoming failed to mention to Van's that the alternative belt grooved moved aft a little.  Nobody told Plane Power that even the engine configuration was changed.



With that stated, both Plane Power and Lycoming have responded to my inquiry and have been very actively working on a solution.   The list price on a new ring gear is about $1,700.  Van's has not responded other than to pass the buck to their suppliers.



The following was the first email that I received today from Plane Power.

Lycoming reports that the alignment difference is .130â€ with the alternator pulley forward of the flywheel pulley.  This fits what you have reported as well.  If the alternator is adjusted to move aft (toward the firewall) to align with the flywheel pulley the Tension Arm (99-1004) will also be off alignment.

 

We intend to produce a kit solution for future applications.  We understand your need is now so we offer the following suggestion to you.

 

1.	Verify that you need your alternator to be moved .130â€ (or whatever your requirement is) and make that your new target point.

2.	Leave the 99-1001 spacer attached to the alternator as it presently is.  We donâ€™t think you can remove it with satisfactory results.  Machine grind the 99-1001 spacer by .130â€.  Leave a flat surface.  This will move the entire alternator aft.  In doing so it will create a void at the 99-1002 front spacer.

3.	Add a spacer or washers between the 99-1002 spacer and the mount bracket.  

4.	Add a spacer or washers between the tension arm (99-1004) and alternator where the tension arm connects to the alternator.

5.	The starter strap will be attached on the outside of the mount as usual and no modification should be needed.

 

The above instructions have not gone through our engineering process.  It represents our effort to give you suggestions to assist you in your EXPERIMENTAL effort to fabricate a solution for your application.  It is up to you to verify that the above suggestions are appropriate for your application.



To be honest, my immediate reaction was pretty negative with this response.  I purchased an engine and a fire wall forward kit from Van's with the expectation that the alternator, alternator belt, and the engine ring gear alignment would be plug and play, just like it has been for years.   I don't have the tools to perform these tasks nor the willingness to hire a firm to make them for me.  Van's should have stepped up and admitted to the oversight, then work with the vendors to make all the builders that purchased this variation of the engine and the FWF suppled alternator a solution.  The more I think about it, Van's should publish a service bulletin on this situation. If folks don't notice the 1/8" offset, they will eventually lose a belt due to coming off or premature wear.



Fortunately, Plane Power understanding that I probably didn't have the tools to be sucessful with their original instructions, sent me the following email a little later today.



We have a new solution for you.  We are going to ship you some new spacers which we will cut down the size.  So call me ASAP so we can get address, etc. and discus.

 

We thought removing the existing spacers from the alternator would be very difficult.  So we tried and experiment and liked the results.  To get your current two spacers out of the alternator do this.  Get a container that will allow you to fill to a certain point with lacquer thinner.  Arrange your project so you can soak the ear and spacer of the alternator in the lacquer thinner.  DO NOT GET THE ALTERNATOR CASING IN THE THINNER - JUST THE EAR AND SPACER.

 

Leave submerged for one hour.  Remove from the thinner and using a vice, pliers, etc twist the spacer out of the alternator ear.  Perform the same task on the other ear & spacer.  Then you can replace the old spacers with the new ones we will send you.  



I suspect it will be a week or so before I can attempt to make this modification.  I'll post an update with the results.



Bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

After flying since 2008 I rolled the belt on my second alternator which is 

mounted below the governor and driven by a second belt.  Upon close 

examination of the large pulley I too, have one grove and one semi grove. 

The semi grove is so close I never noticed that it was different until I had 

belt problems.



Someone mentioned that they had theirs machined into a actual belt grove. 

Who did the machining and what did it cost?



Thanks

Gary Specketer



 	  Quote:

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Here's the post that everyone has been waiting to see.



I installed the new spacers from Plane Power this afternoon. They are a perfect fit for those that purchased a YIO-540-D4A5 from Vans and have a LW-12227 ring gear.



If you fall into this category, I would highly recommend that you call Vans and demand that they supply you the appropriate Plane Power spacers for free.



They made the decision to switch ring gears and they packaged the Plane Power 60a alternator in the firewall forward package, whith out performing the necessary engineering to ensure power integration.



I will say that the folks at Plane Power have been great to work with to find the appropriate solution. Lycoming was also cooperative in supplying Plane Power the appropriate data to allow Plane Power to fabricate new spacers.



Also note that if you have a 70a alternator, you'll need a different set of spacers.



I worked with Jason and Dick at Plane Power, Marlous at Lycoming (Van's sales rep), and Gus at Vans. Jason and Dick provided outstanding customer support. 



My last email to Gus recommended that Vans supply all customers that purchased this combination with the spacers at no charge and issue a service bulletin to ensure nobody attempts to fly in this configuration since it isn't safe.



bob

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

woxofswa

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

Just wanted to bump this back up and see if there are any updates.



I need the dual groove ring gear for Airflow Systems AC.  BPE sent me the LW12227 and yes my plane power alternator is slightly forward just like the rest of you guys.



I'm also having trouble aligning the A/C compressor as well.  My engine is a BPE narrow case. (don't know if that makes a difference or not).  Before I start machining things, I wonder if there is a different part number of dual channel ring gear that will work.



Suggestions appreciated.

_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:09 am Post subject: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

The only other number I have is for the single channel.   I would call Lycoming or Alan Barrett to get the correct part number. When I went through my ordeal last year, the single channel ring gear was about $1,700.  A replacement gear isn't cheap.



If you weren't aware, you can get a kit from vans for $30 to fix the alignment issue with a plane power alternator.



Sent from my iPad



On Jul 28, 2012, at 3:14 AM, "woxofswa" <woxof(at)aol.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Just wanted to bump this back up and see if there are any updates.

 

 I need the dual groove ring gear for Airflow performance AC.  BPE sent me the LW12227 and yes my plane power alternator is slightly forward just like the rest of you guys.

 

 I'm also having trouble aligning the A/C compressor as well.  My engine is a BPE narrow case. (don't know if that makes a difference or not).  Before I start machining things, I wonder if there is a different part number of dual channel ring gear that will work.

 

 Suggestions appreciated.

 

 --------

 Myron Nelson

 Mesa, AZ

 Emp completed, QB wings completed, legacy build fuse in mostly done, finishing kit in progress.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=379391#379391

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

woxofswa

Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Plane Power and Lycoming Pulley Alignment Issue

I bought the $30 kit and it worked perfectly.  Fortunately, the old bushing twisted right out so I didn't have to do the solvent soak I've read about.

For the cross brace I just flattened out some of the z-bend in the vice but left a little for retention grip.



I agree that the builder shouldn't have to eat the cost of this fix through no fault of their own.  In my case, I am installing A/C and specifically needed the double pulley so I didn't press the issue of payment.



One would think that if it costs so much to machine the bushing, that the old bushing would have some residual value to Plane Power.  However, IMO, even at $30, having a perfect fix available beats having to create it for yourself.  One can only imagine what the cost would be if it had Beech, Cessna, or Piper stamped onto it.



I appreciate guys like Bob blazing the trails to the benefit of those of us behind.  This issue is also another example of the benefit of the forums and group-think.

_________________
Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014

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