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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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 Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous) happened to me. After departure (already in 5000 ft) I noticed that the door on the copilot-side was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you saying: "that cannot happen when you worked through the checklist prior take off"). You are so right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate passage of the POH came crystal clear in my mind: "when the door springs open it will most likely depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the handle in front and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!! When leaving the aircraft my Co noticed a resistance when opening the door. It turned out, that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be deformed in a way that the gap between door and frame/roof became too small causing this resistance approximately when half open (then the door frame contacts the roof frame) . When complete open or closed everything seems normal. The hinges and screws where it's mounted are apparently undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the door into a perfect fit again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Roland,
what was a temperature around 5000 ft and in the
ground when you were flying yesterday?
Let me guess - in the ground it was -3C.
Here - just now - it is a bit too low to go fly w
my taste (near -30C /-22F).
I am happy you still have two doors and everything
as a whole.
Raimo
Cheers, Raimo Toivio
Europa XS Mono OH-XRT #417
Updated flight hours /landings: 257,15 /466
37500 Lempaala
FINLAND
p +358-3-3753 777
f +358-3-3753 100
toivio(at)fly.to
www.rwm.fi
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
From: Roland
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:32 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Deformation of canopy
<schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Hi all,
yesterday something embarrassing (and dangerous)
happened to me. After departure (already in 5000
ft) I noticed that the door on the copilot-side
was not locked on the rear side (I almost hear you
saying: "that cannot happen when you worked
through the checklist prior take off"). You are so
right!
After the first shock (suddenly the appropriate
passage of the POH came crystal clear in my mind:
"when the door springs open it will most likely
depart the aircraft") I asked my Co to pull the
handle in front and I did the same on the rear.
I was so lucky to land with my Europa as a whole!!
When leaving the aircraft my Co noticed a
resistance when opening the door. It turned out,
that the frame on the top of the door seemed to be
deformed in a way that the gap between door and
frame/roof became too small causing this
resistance approximately when half open (then the
door frame contacts the roof frame) . When
complete open or closed everything seems normal.
The hinges and screws where it's mounted are
apparently undamaged.
Does anyone have a suggestion how to bring the
door into a perfect fit again?
Thanks for your input!
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
Trigear XS
Rotax 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365518#365518
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FAQ,
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tennant
Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Deformation of canopy |
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Hi Roland,
I would like to have a look at your problem. It's only a 10 min flight from EDLM. Will you be at the airfield on Sunday morning (if it's not below -5).
Best regards
Barry
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_________________
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany |
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let´s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | | If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not. |
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20 Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Hi! Fred/Raimo.
I have a couple of wood “pull handles” on the rear portion of each door to ensure they are shut. I have to say they are never used because I would need to be a damn contortionist to get at them from the Europa seat positions. If Raimo’s system is fool proof then go for it but I use my eyes on the starboard side and ask the passenger to check port side to verify they are closed and the bolt is “home”.
Over 800 hours perhaps 900 and never yet a take off with a door not properly closed.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 06 February 2012 20:44
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let´s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20 Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
[quote] href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c[b]
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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You didn't mention the hot tub and sauna [img]cid:gtalk.328(at)goomoji.gmail[/img]
do not archive.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:
| Quote: | Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
|
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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No I did not but I wrote “ More is coming! ”...
do not archive
From: Paul McAllister (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:21 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
You didn't mention the hot tub and sauna [img]cid:C7E2819BB59E472C8F274ABCFBCBE19C(at)Asus[/img]
do not archive.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:
| Quote: | Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
|
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Roland,
I have calibrated it carefully. Flying a triangle
and counting an average speed. Or flying when zero
winds and compareing to GPS.
Also, I give my panel when new to The Finnish
Airforce´s Tech and they put it to the test bench
to calibrate & adjust ALTs, Varis, ASIs, ALT
Encoder, xpdr, radio etc. (attachment).
Last summer we had a nice trip to Siljansnäs.
Look at first pic: my wife is piloting w her left
hand and writing some notes and talking with ESNO
twr, GPS has 154 knots (notice also; her door is
secured by pip-pin. Awful - she cannot escape!).
Second pic: heading to north-north-east, GPS still
154 knots.
Third pic: Dynon shows HDG 17 degrees, IAS 141
kts, TAS 164 kts, practically level flight, wind
was from south 10-15 knots.
We typically cruise IAS 140 knots.
My happy bird is quite speedy but I would love to
see at least one faster Europa in her life time.
So far I have not seen any. Roland, maybe you
would like to try...anytime... XD
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
From: Roland
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:38 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
<schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Barry,
I left a message in your private box.
Raimo, check if you need to calibrate your ASI
Roland
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365793#365793
browse
Un/Subscription,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Forums!
List Admin.
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Bob,
you got it – we are not contortionists – we are pilots. At the age 50-100 it is a hard task to practise to be a contortionist – pilot.
I have noticed during last years even pick up the safety belts from the back when sitting there it not too easy (that is why I like to keep children on the back seat – they can give me my belts).
Asking Co-pilot to verify is the door secured or not is a bit risky: how can you be sure if she/he understand what you really mean?
The door rubber seals make the door a bit tight. I have noticed it is easy to close when pressing the frame down by my elbow and same time push the lever gently fore.
***
Total fool proof system would be if you cannot fire your engine in the case bolts are not in.
Van´s 12: you cannot fire the engine if the wing main pip-pins are not correctly installed.
That is better than a note in POH or even a warning light.
Wishes,
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
From: Bob Harrison (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 11:47 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Deformation of canopy
Hi! Fred/Raimo.
I have a couple of wood “pull handles” on the rear portion of each door to ensure they are shut. I have to say they are never used because I would need to be a damn contortionist to get at them from the Europa seat positions. If Raimo’s system is fool proof then go for it but I use my eyes on the starboard side and ask the passenger to check port side to verify they are closed and the bolt is “home”.
Over 800 hours perhaps 900 and never yet a take off with a door not properly closed.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 06 February 2012 20:44
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let´s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20 Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
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Roland
Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Deformation of canopy |
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Raimo,
I'm afraid my bird cannot compete to that numbers. Tango India isn't slow (about 125 KIAS at 4800 RPM, don't ask me for MP, burning approximately 20 litres) but it is a Trigear albeit equipped with speed kit. So you'll have to search further but maybe rather in the Ban Bi community.
I understand your Europa is also powered by the Rotax 914, right?
Don't worry about your wife - there are other reasons keeping her from escaping your plane at 160 kts at 10 k ft - you won't need a pip pin for that.
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS Trigear 914
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ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Hi! Raimo,
Yes I concur with all you say and watch out for “the old man” coming on !
I can still get my head round to see my rear port door but there’s no way I could reach behind  but also I do know it is properly shut when I close it anyway so I don’t really depend on the passenger but it gives them a thrill to be involved !
Motto is never trust anyone , that’s why I would never have a partner during the build .
Best regards ........and love to Marke and “the girls” they must love their flying Dad. Such a pity they aren’t older !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob  G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 07 February 2012 20:14
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Bob,
you got it – we are not contortionists – we are pilots. At the age 50-100 it is a hard task to practise to be a contortionist – pilot.
I have noticed during last years even pick up the safety belts from the back when sitting there it not too easy (that is why I like to keep children on the back seat – they can give me my belts).
Asking Co-pilot to verify is the door secured or not is a bit risky: how can you be sure if she/he understand what you really mean?
The door rubber seals make the door a bit tight. I have noticed it is easy to close when pressing the frame down by my elbow and same time push the lever gently fore.
***
Total fool proof system would be if you cannot fire your engine in the case bolts are not in.
Van´s 12: you cannot fire the engine if the wing main pip-pins are not correctly installed.
That is better than a note in POH or even a warning light.
Wishes,
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
From: Bob Harrison (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 11:47 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Deformation of canopy
Hi! Fred/Raimo.
I have a couple of wood “pull handles” on the rear portion of each door to ensure they are shut. I have to say they are never used because I would need to be a damn contortionist to get at them from the Europa seat positions. If Raimo’s system is fool proof then go for it but I use my eyes on the starboard side and ask the passenger to check port side to verify they are closed and the bolt is “home”.
Over 800 hours perhaps 900 and never yet a take off with a door not properly closed.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 06 February 2012 20:44
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let´s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20 Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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On Feb 7, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | | we are not contortionists – we are pilots. At the age 50-100 it is a hard task to practise to be a contortionist – pilot. |
...fascinating topic...
Raimo...a couple of questions...
- When you say you are not a contortionist, are you saying that...while sitting in the left seat cockpit...you either CANNOT, or find it extremely difficult to, pull the rear of your window/door inward if the rear shoot-bolt doesn't engage properly?...
- If so, what happens when you don't get a "green" lite?
- How often do you not get a "green" lite after latching your window/door?
What I'm trying to understand is whether or not your window/door installation was perfect or near perfect resulting in virtually 100% engagement of rear shoot-bolt when latching and thus your warning lite system merely gives you some peace of mind.
As mentioned previously, I feared that my rear shoot-bolts would NOT engage properly UNLESS I was able to include some means of pulling the rear of the window inward...and my little ergonomic investigation showed me that if I installed a little tab on the window frame...approximately in line with the CM "head rest"...this would do the trick, without my needing to be a contortionist. This works for both port and stbd windows as I, like others, do not want to depend on a passenger to tell me if everything's aok.
(For the port window, I reach my right arm across my chest to pull the tab inward while my left hand pushes the door handle forward...for the stdb window, I reach my right arm behind the passenger's "head rest" and pull inward while passenger [or I] push the door handle forward...no contorting necessary...and whether I have a warning lite system or not, I still anticipate going thru these motions when securing the window/doors.)
Fred
[quote][b]
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klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:20 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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A little left rudder and you may pick up a couple knots:)
Cheers, Kevin
On Feb 7, 2012, at 11:59 AM, "Raimo Toivio" <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:
| Quote: | Second pic: heading to north-north-east, GPS still 154 knots.
Third pic: Dynon shows HDG 17 degrees, IAS 141 kts, TAS 164 kts, practically level flight, wind was from south 10-15 knots.
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:09 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Grand Uncle Bob from UK,
is not that wonderful: normal ageing men have to get therapy and visit regularly rehabilitation centres but Europa owners just fly and service their machine to keep their body and head in a reasonable shape.
I am happy they are not older – but they will too quickly. Older one has decided to be one day an Army Helicopter Pilot.
Those girls (attached) send you warm wishes and invite you to fly here to be our guest 1-3. of June 2012. How about that?
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
do not archive
From: Bob Harrison (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:07 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Deformation of canopy
Hi! Raimo,
Yes I concur with all you say and watch out for “the old man” coming on !
I can still get my head round to see my rear port door but there’s no way I could reach behind but also I do know it is properly shut when I close it anyway so I don’t really depend on the passenger but it gives them a thrill to be involved !
Motto is never trust anyone , that’s why I would never have a partner during the build .
Best regards ........and love to Marke and “the girls” they must love their flying Dad. Such a pity they aren’t older !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob G-PTAG
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 07 February 2012 20:14
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Bob,
you got it – we are not contortionists – we are pilots. At the age 50-100 it is a hard task to practise to be a contortionist – pilot.
I have noticed during last years even pick up the safety belts from the back when sitting there it not too easy (that is why I like to keep children on the back seat – they can give me my belts).
Asking Co-pilot to verify is the door secured or not is a bit risky: how can you be sure if she/he understand what you really mean?
The door rubber seals make the door a bit tight. I have noticed it is easy to close when pressing the frame down by my elbow and same time push the lever gently fore.
***
Total fool proof system would be if you cannot fire your engine in the case bolts are not in.
Van´s 12: you cannot fire the engine if the wing main pip-pins are not correctly installed.
That is better than a note in POH or even a warning light.
Wishes,
Raimo
OH-XRT
Finland
From: Bob Harrison (ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 11:47 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Deformation of canopy
Hi! Fred/Raimo.
I have a couple of wood “pull handles” on the rear portion of each door to ensure they are shut. I have to say they are never used because I would need to be a damn contortionist to get at them from the Europa seat positions. If Raimo’s system is fool proof then go for it but I use my eyes on the starboard side and ask the passenger to check port side to verify they are closed and the bolt is “home”.
Over 800 hours perhaps 900 and never yet a take off with a door not properly closed.
Regards
Bob Harrison (G-PTAG)
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Raimo Toivio
Sent: 06 February 2012 20:44
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
Fred
that is true. An ideal Europa´s weight is around 350 kgs (below 790 lbs). That is possible w/o any extra. Also, it takes time to plan and build extra. They are also not free!
I have that extra 70 kgs (160 lbs). More is coming!
Why?
- for a good look and luxury (painting, leather, DVD, refridgerator, heating and defrost system etc, golden register plate etc means about 15 kgs 34 lbs penalty).
- for a safety (warning systems, extra navigation, autopilot, 2nd GPS, TCAS, alarms, horn, nav-lights, 3 strobos, landing and taxi lights, panel and a cockpit illumination etc, real aviation safety belts x 4 etc means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a speed and efficiency (CS-prop, very finished surfaces and glossy painting means about 20 kgs 44 lbs penalty).
- for a family (it is 2+2 seater and that was for structural reasons and extra belts and four place intercom about 10 kgs 22 lbs penalty).
- for me and my wife (good tempur seats, some small details, decoration etc say 5 kgs 11 lbs penalty)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is all together 70 kgs and those kilos make Romeo Tango personalized for our taste.
For me it was the best part of the building to think about all these extras and judge what to do and what do not.
***
Door bolts warning system:
2xmicroswitch (4 is not necessary)
some wire
one led (two is not necessary)
connected to the fuse you already have
Penalty is not more than 0,1 kg = 0,225 lbs.
You will build it about 2 hours only.
And spend money let´s say few bugs like 20 dollars.
It is a bit ackward to check rearbolts. Really. At least my body does not want to twist to the left so much. It is dangerous to your healthy. It is human not to do it always. But it is easy to check one green led. Very easy!
You can still have your statement PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING and then verify you have the green led.
Do it, for me please!
Raimo OH-XRT
Finland
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 8:31 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: AW: AW: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
If green (should be red then!) off means bolts are in, how can you be pretty sure system is ok? If you loose your microswitch or led or fuse your greens are off and you think bolts are in but maybe they are not.
All,
I have followed this thread with interest as it seems to embody the tension between keeping things simple on one hand and fitting out our planes sufficiently to ensure safe flight on the other.
I've paid some attention to the issue of ensuring the rear shoot-bolts engage because when fitting the doors, I found that the rear portion of the door seemed to spring outward just enough for the rear shoot-bolts to miss the aluminum tubing which prevented proper closure...not good!
After sitting in the left seat...twisting my body and reaching about to determine where I could reach in order to pull in the aft portion of the door prior to closing the lever and engaging the shoot-bolts...I installed a simple tab on the window frames (both port and stbd) which I could grip and pull inward. One thing I noticed while checking out my little ergonomics exercise was that I found that I could not feel whether or not the shoot-bolts were properly engaged or not, nor could I readily see likewise. The fundemental idea I took away from these exercises was that it was essential to pull the rear portion of the window/door inward BEFORE moving the latching handle forward.
As luck would have it, after installing the plexiglas windows, I found that the additional weight completely eliminates the tendency for the rear portion of the window/door to spring outward and for the shoot-bolts to not engage; however, I have not as yet fitted the tubular rubber seal...so perhaps the conditions may change.
My hunch at this point is that my checklist MUST include an item stating: PULL DOOR INWARD BEFORE LATCHING.
For the moment, I'm content with that and will not add the additional complexity of a warning light system. I've had a look at about 20 Europas and, I believe, have yet to see a microswitch/LED installation...I'm wondering how common are such installations.
Fred
A194
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:43 am Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Fred
From: Fred Klein (fklein(at)orcasonline.com)
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 7:05 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
On Feb 7, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Raimo Toivio wrote:
| Quote: | | we are not contortionists – we are pilots. At the age 50-100 it is a hard task to practise to be a contortionist – pilot. |
...fascinating topic...
Raimo...a couple of questions...
- When you say you are not a contortionist, are you saying that...while sitting in the left seat cockpit...you either CANNOT, or find it extremely difficult to, pull the rear of your window/door inward if the rear shoot-bolt doesn't engage properly?...
If I had to pull the rear of my door inward, that would be quite challenging. Happily it is not necessary in Romeo Tango´s case at all, because it goes “automatically” right. My practise is to press window frame down by my left elbow and same time push the lever gently fore.
- If so, what happens when you don't get a "green" lite?
I get it always. My doors are not very tight. I did not used Europa suplied door rubber weather strip. I found my own version of the rubber seal. But if I could not get “green”, I would try again in that case. What else?
- How often do you not get a "green" lite after latching your window/door?
In my case so far never. Notice: in my case. You cannot trust it. Me neither.
What I'm trying to understand is whether or not your window/door installation was perfect or near perfect resulting in virtually 100% engagement of rear shoot-bolt when latching and thus your warning lite system merely gives you some peace of mind.
When building I did not know how easy it will be to close the doors when completed. I built the warning systems just in case. BUT – one single time having a rear bolt outside is too much and can lead to fatal. That is why I would build it again with this knowledge. In fact – when the doors close easily you are not concentrating to this procedure. Easy closing doors are kind of risk...that is why you also need a warning system – positive or negative or both.
As mentioned previously, I feared that my rear shoot-bolts would NOT engage properly UNLESS I was able to include some means of pulling the rear of the window inward...and my little ergonomic investigation showed me that if I installed a little tab on the window frame...approximately in line with the CM "head rest"...this would do the trick, without my needing to be a contortionist. This works for both port and stbd windows as I, like others, do not want to depend on a passenger to tell me if everything's aok.
After I had read this I went to my winter-hangar, which is behind the wall of my office. Sat down to the P1 seat and noticed this place for a little tab in line with head rest would do without a snakebody. Ten inches back and it would be hard to reach it. But IF you once forget to use your tab OR it is not necessary to use it at all – the destiny is behind you.
(For the port window, I reach my right arm across my chest to pull the tab inward while my left hand pushes the door handle forward...for the stdb window, I reach my right arm behind the passenger's "head rest" and pull inward while passenger [or I] push the door handle forward...no contorting necessary...and whether I have a warning lite system or not, I still anticipate going thru these motions when securing the window/doors.)
If you happen to manage to build perfect doors, they will be closed very easily. As advertised. Then there is a risk sometimes for some reason you are a bit more careless than normal and your rear bolt is out and you have no idea about that w/o a warning device until you notice that airborne at 5000 ft and start to fight for your passenger(s), plane and your soul.
Build a warning or/and ok systems. I will send you all the necessary bits (a DC12V led with a nice collar (colour of your choise), two microswithes and 10ft of high quality teflon aviation wire and a schematic drawing. How about that (valid only for you and one week only)?
What more you need?
Build warning devices – fly more safe!
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
Fred
[quote]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Kevin,
I was sure somebody will pick this jerk. Good.
No, it flies direct.
Me - a stupid first time builder - understood to
assembly the balls (Dynon and conventional)
perfectly direct to the panel.
But when I installed the panel to the cockpit
module, It went unfortunately not perfectly
straight. I was happy I managed to put it there -
no idea to instal a panel straight! There is no
adjustment for instruments - the fixing holes are
round...not a beautiful C-shape.
It is on my long-time-list to straighten this
instrument. An ugly task, really.
Later I installed a CS-prop and it has a
control-head with a digital ball. That - my third
ball - is happily straight!
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
From: klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 4:10 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Deformation of
canopy
klinefelter.kevin(at)gmail.com
A little left rudder and you may pick up a couple
knots:)
Cheers, Kevin
On Feb 7, 2012, at 11:59 AM, "Raimo Toivio"
<raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> wrote:
| Quote: | Second pic: heading to north-north-east, GPS
still 154 knots.
Third pic: Dynon shows HDG 17 degrees, IAS 141
kts, TAS 164 kts, practically level flight, wind
was from south 10-15 knots.
|
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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: Deformation of canopy |
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Roland
I have to say I use typically 5000-5200 revs and
also I am not shy to use constant 5500 rpm.
When low, it shows if I want a manifold pressure
30-31 In hg A (912S).
Typically my MAP is around 25.
BTW earlier Rotax allowed all the combinations
with revs and MAP but I understood they have now
limited that revs must be then 5000 rpm or more.
My long time (over 200 hrs) average fuel burn is
17,7 l/hrs.
I have to say - it is a totally different bird
after she got a CS-prop (Airmaster - I am very
happy about it).
Before it 125(at)4800 was the name of the game too (I
had Warp Blades but do not remember the blade
angles, first 17 degrees, then maybe 19-20
degrees).
***
About Ban Bis /Dyn Aeros: is not it strange that
they advertice their cruise speed is fast than
their VNE ???
Dyn Aero 4S is also interesting; they claim it is
faster (AND lighter as empty) than typical Europa
with same engine and four adults omboard.
But the real miracle will be their new Twin-R -
two Rotaxes but it will fly happily with one
engine only...
***
About wife and escaping: That is true. This time
she was too tired to escape. I have to say this
was very first time ever including commercial
flights I have seen her sleeping (attached).
Finally I and our Europa have earned her full
confidence.
Raimo
OH-XRT
FINLAND
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
From: Roland
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 11:39 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Deformation of canopy
<schmidtroland(at)web.de>
Raimo,
I'm afraid my bird cannot compete to that numbers.
Tango India isn't slow (about 125 KIAS at 4800
RPM, don't ask me for MP, burning approximately 20
litres) but it is a Trigear albeit equipped with
speed kit. So you'll have to search further but
maybe rather in the Ban Bi community.
I understand your Europa is also powered by the
Rotax 914, right?
Don't worry about your wife - there are other
reasons keeping her from escaping your plane at
160 kts at 10 k ft - you won't need a pip pin for
that.
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS Trigear 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365821#365821
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