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eschlanser
Joined: 08 Apr 2010
Posts: 60
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 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Got it in a PM.
Thanks, Eric
| eschlanser wrote: | Roger or forum users,
I cannot seem to open the attachment. It appears on my screen as a winmail.dat file rather than an adobe pdf or other file that my computer can open. I am seeing the file in the aeroelectric forum at the matronics lists.
Thanks for any help,
Eric
| mrspudandcompany(at)veriz wrote: | Yes but,
I seem to recall a modification procedure that did not
require machining any part of the case. It also did (as I recall) have you
completely remove the internal regulator. So the process of conversion was
different as I recall. All accomplished with simple hand tools. Perhaps
Bob will chime in with his recommendation.
See attached! Is this, perhaps the one you
are looking for?
Roger |
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ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days.
Charlie
On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote] RE: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In the same league as a primer war.
My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from.
For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare.
When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process.
My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me.
Bevan
"I like to build and fix things"
_____________________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day
only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the
reserve battery power give a safe reserve?
Bob Verwey
The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit.
Roger [b]
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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Thanks Charlie,
I have found the info I was initially looking for (and then some) but what you're talking about is very interesting too. I would be interested whenever you have the time to dig it up.
Bevan
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 2:08 PM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Someone recently sent me off-the-shelf part numbers that can be used to convert some Nippon Denso alternators to external regulation with bolt-on parts. I don't have time now to dig up the info, but if you're not in a hurry, I'll try to find it within the next few days.
Charlie
On 04/02/2012 12:39 PM, B Tomm wrote: [quote]
Wow, I didn't think my question would hit such a sensitive nerve. In the same league as a primer war.
My question was about the "how" but many of you are interested in discussing the "why". Here's where I'm coming from.
For better or worse, the decision was made a long time ago to configure my electrical system for external regulation ala Bob M. Now I'm getting close to needing an alternator and looking at the options. I will have an SD-8 backup alternator and therefore don't consider the main alternator as being required to be of the absolute best quality. It just needs to have a failure mode that does not affect other more expensive electronics. As far as I know, there are no "100% guaranteed to work for ever" alternators anyway. So my theory is to have a spare in the hangar ready to go or to be brought to me when/if a failure occurs. I'm thinking I would rather have two $100 alternators that I have converted to external regulation and tested than one $595 alternator and no spare.
When, converting two to external regulation I will learn something and decide whether I can do this when away from my regular tool box. I may be too far from my spare and have to buy an internally regulated one and convert it out in the field. I seem to recall that it's not too difficult of a process. More like a removal of unnecessary parts. Something I am usually pretty good at. I plan on keeping some maintenance papers in the plane's tool bag anyway, one of which could be the alternator process.
My thoughts only. You may have another opinion and that's fine with me.
Bevan
"I like to build and fix things"
_____________________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of ROGER & JEAN CURTIS
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:12 AM
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day
only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the
reserve battery power give a safe reserve?
Bob Verwey
The Conventional crowbar module is used with the external regulator. The internal regulator does not work with the external crowbar circuit.
Roger
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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millner(at)me.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had a
runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which
peppered the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer.
Paul
On 4/2/2012 7:10 AM, Ed Anderson wrote:
| Quote: |
<eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>
I have been flying over 12 years on a Bosch (rebuilt) alternator with
internal regulator - with no problems. The only downside I can see is
that once it has bootstrapped itself, removing voltage to the field
coil does not stop the output. So if I had a runaway alternator it
could theoretically fry my electronics - on the other hand, in all my
life of driving automobiles and the one or two alternator failures
(failed diodes), I've never had a runaway alternator failure mode.
FWIW
Ed
Edward L. Anderson
Anderson Electronic Enterprises LLC
305 Reefton Road
Weddington, NC 28104
http://www.andersonee.com
http://www.eicommander.com
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:43 AM
To: <aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator
>
> <emjones(at)charter.net>
>
> Eric is easily amused...
>
> try:
>
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Converting+to+externally+regulated+alternator
>
> But here is where I will annoy Bob N.: Consider the fact that if
> automobile regulators had a lower failure rate if they were
> externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is that
> BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a
> nearly-zero failure rate.
>
> Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their
> external regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion
> permanently.
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=369828#369828
>
>
|
--
Please note my new email address!
millner(at)me.com
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millner(at)me.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Another anecdotal observation... my Buick Park Avenue had a 135 amp,
internally regulated alternator. It would fail, like clockwork, every
45,000 miles (I drove the car to 222,000 miles). I had one examined,
and discovered the internal regulator had overheated, apparently, and
failed.
On the GM transversely mounted six, the alternator is on top... so no
crawling underneath required. I got very good at the R&R process.
Paul
On 4/2/2012 11:32 AM, longg(at)pjm.com wrote:
[quote]
Beven,
According to Mr. Google, this should take about 30 minutes. http://www.wallaceracing.com/alt-conversion.html
It looks like it's more popular to covert externals to internals (at least in the automotive world where the externals always failed).
Funny, I don't see too many folks lying under their cars on the turnpike pulling out their internally regulated jobs. I've run many a car well past 100k and never had the alternator go. That's why I've got an IR in my bird. I took have an SD-8. Wouldn't leave home without it.
Occasionally I talk to pilots who piss and moan about how they had to fly their so and so to the alternator shop so they could have Mr. Alternator specialist provide a special part for their regulator. No Thanks
Cut those wires and go fly. It's summer time.
Glenn, N57
--
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a scenario unworkable.
Rick Girard
On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 7:53 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 08:43 PM 4/4/2012, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Millner <millner(at)me.com (millner(at)me.com)>
Ah! Since anecdotal evidence is apparently compelling, my Ford had a runaway alternator, which resulted in a battery explosion, which peppered the underside of the hood with acid burns. Bummer.
Paul
|
Good morning Paul, long time no hear!
As I was talking to the chief engineer at
MPA about this experiences with alternators,
it would have been interesting to know how
what percentage of alternators coming in
the door had failed regulators . . . and what
the failure modes were.
The only alternators that they routinely examined
for fault analysis were those returned on
warranty. As I stated in the narrative of my visit
the rate of returns had mostly to do with the
skills of the installer. An exceedingly small
number of warranty returns had any failures at
all.
Of course, ALL alternators coming through the
rebuild stream had been replaced for reasons
some mechanic thought were good. At the same
time, I've encountered few mechanics that
REALLY understand how the alternator works and
how to accurately troubleshoot systems that
exhibit less than gross failure.
Virtually none of the normal work stream was
evaluated for failure modes. It would have
been VERY interesting to see how many had
failed regulators in a runaway mode. But alas,
22,000 items passed through that facility
every day. Any effort to glean such information
from those carcasses would have been very
difficult/expensive.
The bottom line is that the best source of
data we have comes from the aviation community
. . . and that data will be anecdotal at best.
The bright side is that the astute system
designer needs only to know that risk for
regulator failure in any system is not zero
and happily, insurance against such failures
is inexpensive.
As the personable spokesperson for Allstate
might suggest, "You're in good hands with
OV protection."
Bob . . .
====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
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http://forums.matronics.com
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le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1938
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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The Rotax dynamo does not have a field winding. Thus, the only way to shut it off is by opening the B lead (or shutting off the engine). A 20 amp relay is capable of opening the Rotax dynamo output. However, a 60 amp alternator would require a much larger relay or contactor to open the B lead. It is much easier to open the 3 amp alternator field circuit.
As for the Rotax capacitor, it can not conduct DC current. It is irrelevant whether the relay contacts are open or closed. The purpose of the capacitor is to smooth the pulsing DC output of the rectified single phase dynamo current.
Joe
| Quote: | Bob, all, Forgive my lack of knowledge here, but I don't understand the problem here. I use the Z-17 architecture that has the Rotax dynamo output connected to the battery via relay. If the relay is powered down the dynamos output goes to ground through a capacitor. At least that's my understanding. If that is correct, why can't a single wire alternator be controlled in the same way. In the event of a voltage regulator failure and a runaway alternator ensues would not the overvoltage module do the same to a relay connecting the single wire to the battery? Obviously this sounds simple for an electronic illiterate like me. What am I missing that makes such a scenario unworkable.
Rick Girard |
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:55 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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Is the alternator in picture "externally regulated"?
Bob Verwey
Safari ZU-AJF
On 02/04/2012, Bob Verwey <bob.verwey(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Does the crowbar module not offer enough protection? With a VFR day
only, electronic ignition setup, minimal elctrogizmos, does not the
reserve battery power give a safe reserve?
Bob Verwey
On 02/04/2012, ROGER & JEAN CURTIS <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:
> Consider the fact that if automobile regulators had a lower failure rate
> if
> they were externally regulated, auto makers would use them. The fact is
> that
> BRAND NEW (not rebuilt) Nippon Denso alternators seem to have a
> nearly-zero
> failure rate.
>
> Then make your decision. I have had several builders send me their
> external
> regulators for examination. This cemented my opinion permanently.
> Eric,
>
> I believe that perhaps Bob does agree with you, in that the
> internally regulated alternator has "nearly-zero" but NOT ZERO failure.
> Apparently there have been some cases of catastrophic over voltage with
> no
> way to shut it down, when in the air. Have you found this to be the case
> with the externally regulated alternators? With the external regulator,
> when you shut off power to the regulator it positively shuts down the
> alternator.
>
> I personally feel that the risk is very low with the
> internal regulation, but also wonder why TC aircraft have continued to
> use
> external regulation.
>
> Roger
>
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: Converting to externally reg alternator |
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At 06:52 AM 4/16/2012, you wrote:
| Quote: | Is the alternator in picture "externally regulated"?
Bob Verwey
Safari ZU-AJF
|
The parts list for spares lists a regulator
so I would guess that the regulator is internal
to the machine.
Bob . . .
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