Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jsimons4(at)triad.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Ok, so I went to the Mid Atlantic Fly-In and came away with a decision and a

blessing. After seeing some of the other aircraft I had been looking at, I

wound up back with the 601 HDS. This will be the one I will attempt to

build. The blessing??? After a long conversation with a seminar spokesman,

my wife gave me her blessing to build an aircraft. (Thank you Mr. Speaker) I

have also been leaning strongly towards using a Corvair conversion (using

WW's bible of course) and would like some solid performance figures from

those of you who use this configuration. Also, any advantages /

disadvantages between using conventional gear and tri-gear. All answers and

opinions will be greatly appreciated.



 



Jerome Simons



Near future scrap builder

frank.hinde(at)hp.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Ya...Buy one already built...Mine of course... 



The HDS is an excellent little airplane, but if were going to build one

I would build an XL unless the loss of the wing baggage was an absolute

show stopper. Its handling is a little twitchy but it is great fun to

fly.



If you are a low time pilot with nosewheel only experience I would keep

away from the taildragger...Nothing wrong with the TD its just easier to

get training in nosewheel irplanes these days and TD's can bite you as

they require you to always be on the ball during landing.



I can' comment on the Corvair, lots of people seem to like them. 



Frank

601 HDS 400 hours, Stratus soob with Ram heads



Frank



--

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Welcome to the club. Have you considered the 601 XL?



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601 XL



--- Jerome Simons <jsimons4(at)triad.rr.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <jsimons4(at)triad.rr.com>

 

 Ok, so I went to the Mid Atlantic Fly-In and came

 away with a decision and a

 blessing. After seeing some of the other aircraft I

 had been looking at, I

 wound up back with the 601 HDS. This will be the one

 I will attempt to

 build. The blessing??? After a long conversation

 with a seminar spokesman,

 my wife gave me her blessing to build an aircraft.

 (Thank you Mr. Speaker) I

 have also been leaning strongly towards using a

 Corvair conversion (using

 WW's bible of course) and would like some solid

 performance figures from

 those of you who use this configuration. Also, any

 advantages /

 disadvantages between using conventional gear and

 tri-gear. All answers and

 opinions will be greatly appreciated.

 

  

 

 Jerome Simons

 

 Near future scrap builder

 

 

 

 

 



 browse

 Subscriptions page,

 FAQ,

 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 Admin.



 

 

 

  

  

  

 

 

 

 


	




__________________________________________________

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Jerome,

Congratulations.  The HDS and the Corvair are an excellent combination 

aircraft.  Despite the passionate

opinions on choice of  tail dragger or trigear, I've flown the tri-gear 

for only 85 hours and find the ability to

drive the aircraft over some rather rough material and getting the 601 

in and out of the hangar easily are the

best advantages over the tail dragger.  I also feel the airframe is less 

disturbed by landings on less than great

turf or gravel or concrete.  Steering is definitely positive and 

directed as easily as the little red wagon.

The HDS has a thicker wing than the XL, but the three piece construction 

lends itself to a really strong design.

I believe the older gear design is a pain to install, but a better, 

lighter design than the solid Cessna configuration.

If you need help with anything or advice, this Zenith group is the best.

I built a 601HDS and really enjoyed the process of building from plans. 

You will too.

See link,

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/completion/full/winter601four.gif



Best recent advice (paint before you fly and save about 100 hours of 

cleanup) 



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com (now painting)



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Ok, so I went to the Mid Atlantic Fly-In and came away with a decision and a

blessing. After seeing some of the other aircraft I had been looking at, I

wound up back with the 601 HDS. This will be the one I will attempt to

build. The blessing??? After a long conversation with a seminar spokesman,

my wife gave me her blessing to build an aircraft. (Thank you Mr. Speaker) I

have also been leaning strongly towards using a Corvair conversion (using

WW's bible of course) and would like some solid performance figures from

those of you who use this configuration. Also, any advantages /

disadvantages between using conventional gear and tri-gear. All answers and

opinions will be greatly appreciated.



 



Jerome Simons



Near future scrap builder

RWILBERS(at)tampabay.rr.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Jerome:

Welcome to the Zenith builders group. I believe I would consider a 601 XL

due to the fact that it is light sport compliant, and maybe a little faster

with the Corvair. Either way, you are bound to have a great time and

encounter many different mind boggling attitudes before you finish. 

Conventional gear is prettier, so my spouse says.

Richard



Do Not Archive

--

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Huh?  What loss of wing baggage?



Paul

XL wings (with baggage lockers)

do not archive



At 07:08 PM 5/26/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would build an XL unless the loss of the wing baggage was an absolute

show stopper. Its handling is a little twitchy but it is great fun to

fly.


	


---------------------------------------------

Paul Mulwitz

32013 NE Dial Road

Camas, WA 98607

---------------------------------------------

jsimons2

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Burlington, NC

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Maybe I should introduce myself first. I've been lurking around here since January and have really learned a lot just by reading the forums every day. I'm a 52 (almost 53) year old electrical inspector who has had the flying bug since about 1970, but real life got in the way of doing anything about it. I started on this serious quest to get an aircraft and a ppl about 2 years ago (when it finally hit me that my kids were grown, gone and I didn't have to "pay" for them anymore). My brother in law is a commercial pilot working for LabCorp and has taken me up a few times, mostly to make sure my dream has not died. 



I have considered the XL and still am. I just like the looks of the slightly cantilevered wings on the HDS. I want to build a plane that is comfortable, has plenty of speed for cross country and economical to operate (hence, considering the Corvair conversion). The wing baggage lockers was one of the main reasons for considering the HDS over the XL, however, speed and handleing is of more importance. I have yet to begin flight training but have been around aircraft a good part of my life (Navy, VietNam vet working on flight deck of an aircraft carrier in catapults and arresting gear). I have many construction skills from being an electrician for over 28 years, so trying to build an aircraft and reading blueprints doesn't scare me.



By the way, I won't need a sheet metal break to build my plane. I already have 3 heating and air shops offering me the use of their 8' commercial breaks just to see an aircraft built. Lol, lucky me.



I've learned a lot here and hope to learn even more as my building progresses. Thanks to all.

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Hi Jerome,



Welcome aboard.  I am impressed with your decision to scrap build a Zodiac.



I opted to use the kit approach.  That gets the folks at Zenith to do 

the legwork acquiring materials and parts and to use their large 

scale equipment and know-how to make the big parts that would be 

difficult for me to do.  Their volume purchasing allows them to get 

better prices than I ever could buying smaller quantities, but of 

course they get paid for their efforts and make a profit too. I could 

have just bought the difficult parts from them, but I chose to let 

them do the whole kit.



I also chose a Zodiac, but the XL seemed a better choice to me than 

the HDS.  It is a newer design with more performance and it is 

larger.  I understand it is a lot more stable in flight than the HDS 

too, but I am not sure of that.  It is the performance that was the 

deciding factor for me.



I don't see any reason to use conventional landing gear unless your 

heart is set on that.  Tricycle gear is much easier to handle on the 

ground.  Tail draggers were never really meant to handle cross winds 

or paved runways, but they can do both when an excellent pilot is at 

the controls.  Insurance for tail draggers costs more and the 

companies tend to require long checkouts before they will cover you 

at all.  This is all because ground loop accidents are very common 

with tail draggers.  They are not particularly dangerous to the 

occupants, but tend to bend the airplanes pretty badly.



There is a small penalty in cruise speed paid for the nose gear in 

tricycle configuration.  I don't think this one or two miles per hour 

is worth the risks and difficulties of handling conventional gear.



I have never seen any performance information on the Corvair engines, 

but I suspect they don't do all that well.  Their real benefit seems 

to be low cost rather than high performance or reliability.  If you 

are looking for a minimum cost to reach your first flight then the 

Corvair may be your best choice.  If it is performance you are after 

and price is not such a big deal then I suggest you look into the Jabiru 3300.



Good luck in your project.  I am sure you will find it rewarding.



Paul

XL wings

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  This will be the one I will attempt to

build. The blessing??? After a long conversation with a seminar spokesman,

my wife gave me her blessing to build an aircraft. (Thank you Mr. Speaker) I

have also been leaning strongly towards using a Corvair conversion (using

WW's bible of course) and would like some solid performance figures from

those of you who use this configuration. Also, any advantages /

disadvantages between using conventional gear and tri-gear. All answers and

opinions will be greatly appreciated.

601zv(at)ritternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

How much bigger are the HDS wing lockers? I would think they would be about 

the same size except for being slightly deeper in the thicker wings. And if 

one were using only two wing tanks instead of four, could one not have four 

wing lockers instead of two in the XL? I have four 12-gal. tanks and two 

wing lockers in my XL, but if I had it to do over, since I think the latest 

tank design is 15 gal, I would probably opt for two tanks and four lockers 

if possible.

---

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

The Zodiac 601XL offers wing lockers as an option even with the two long 

range (15 gallon) tanks, in fact even with four 12 gallon tanks if that 

floats your boat. The plane is reputed to burn about 5 gph at 125 IAS with 

the Jabiru 3300 and a Sensenich wood 2-blade prop (don't recall the length 

and pitch but it is the recommended prop with the FWF kit). The reputed top 

flat out speed is around 140 mph IAS, but for economy, 5 gph (at) 125 mph (25 

mpg) is hard to criticize. Find me a hybrid go cart that will do that on the 

road. All these figures are with tricycle gear and wheel pants. Only the 

elevator response felt twichy to me in the demo at the factory and it was 

not extreme. The rest of the flight control response was brisk but not 

twichy in the least IMHO. It climbed at 900 fpm at about 95 IAS with two of 

us on board (about 370 lbs. total). Takeoff roll was about 500 feet or so 

(no flaps on takeoff).



The wings are fully cantilevered, hence no struts. The term I think you were 

intending was dihedral. The 601 HD and HDS have a flat center wing stub and 

the dihedral begins at the end of the that. The 601XL has dihedral all the 

way from the fuselage out.



The sheet metal shop equipment will come in handy a few times, particularly 

if you choose to make any mods or certainly if you build from scratch. If 

you buy a kit, most of the cutting and almost all the bending is already 

done. All of the welding is done for you in the kit form.



Hope this info helps,



Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL / wings



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have considered the XL and still am. I just like the looks of the 

 slightly cantilevered wings on the HDS. I want to build a plane that is 

 comfortable, has plenty of speed for cross country and economical to 

 operate (hence, considering the Corvair conversion). The wing baggage 

 lockers was one of the main reasons for considering the HDS over the XL, 

 however, speed and handleing is of more importance. > By the way, I won't 

 need a sheet metal break to build my plane. I already have 3 heating and 

 air shops offering me the use of their 8' commercial breaks just to see an 

 aircraft built. Lol, lucky me.

dredmoody(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:17 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

My impression (not an expert opinion by any means) is that leading edge wing 

lockers would not be a good idea. Better ask the designer or the factory 

before giving that idea any serious consideration.



Ed Moody II

Rayne, LA

601XL / wings



 	  Quote: 	
		   



And if  one were using only two wing tanks instead of four, could one not 

have four

 wing lockers instead of two in the XL? I have four 12-gal. tanks and two

 wing lockers in my XL, but if I had it to do over, since I think the 

 latest

 tank design is 15 gal, I would probably opt for two tanks and four lockers

 if possible.

btucke73(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Jerome,



     I would like to add to what others have said.  As

far as I know, we do not currently have an HDS Corvair

combination flying yet.  (Someone please chime in if

there is).  According the the Zenith website, the max

cruise speed for the XL is 134 mph (100 hp) and 135

for the HDS.  We all know that these speeds are

inflated, but...  I think we will soon learn that the

speed advantage of the XL is negligible.  Also, as

someone mentioned, the HDS can meet the requirements

for sport pilot.  If your plane stalls at 53, droop

the ailerons a degree or two, and you have a  sport

aircraft.  



     If you are scratch building, I feel that the HDS

spar is much easier to fabricate and build.  You can

also take what you like of the XL and build it into

your HDS.  I scratch built LE tanks, and the forward

tilt canopy from the XL plans.  I also custom built an

aluminum spring gear morphing the 701 and XL plans. 

If you are exceedingly tall, the XL might be the right

choice, as it has a couple more inches of leg room. 

The XL has a slightly bigger baggage compartment,

while the HDS wing lockers are slightly deeper, but

unless you are a marijuana or popcorn smuggler, you

are going to run out of weight before you run out of

space - especially if you are the average homebuilder

size...



     Unless you have a significant amount of tail

dragger experience, you should probably stick with

tri-gear.  Insurance savings being the biggest

advantage.  I have hundreds of tail hours in travel

airs, texans, citabrias and cubs, so I decided to

stick with conventional gear.  Some will point out

that rougher strips can be handled in a tail dragger,

but most build them for bragging rights.  



     I built the HDS because I got a bunch of parts

for cheap from a guy who's priorities changed.  I

would have happily built either one, but I do think

the HDS looks a little sexier.  If mine is the first

HDS Corvair flying, I will quickly report performance

numbers.  It will hopefully be flying in a month or

so.



R/



Brandon



__________________________________________________

dave.thompson(at)verizon.
Guest

Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Jerome,



 



I asked the same question of "Taildragger or tricycle" to William Wynne. All

his aircraft are taildraggers. He said something like this: Typically,

unless you have a large amount of time in taildraggers, Insurance will be

considerably more. Most people are "tricycle trained". If you build

tricycle, more of your friends can fly it, insurance will be cheaper and it

should be easer to sell, if that time comes.



 



That's my two cents worth! I'm planning to build a tricycle 601XL. 128 total

hours logged; 5 in a cub, the rest in Cessna 150's and 172's, 25 years ago.



 



By the way, at the risk of sounding picky, the 601HD has been upgraded and

now it is the 601XL., Not that anything is wrong with the HD, the XL is the

latest model.



 



Dave Thompson



dave.thompson(at)verizon.net

jsimons2

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Burlington, NC

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Thanks to all who have replied so far. A little more info as to why I chose the HDS over the XL may be in order. 

1. If I could afford it, I would try to build a 2 seater P-40 or Spitfire replica. However, I work for a municipal government that doesn't pay all that well (but the benefits are great). Therefor my choice of scratch building and rebuilding a Corvair (100hp) vs. a VW (80hp).

2. I am about 5'11" and 190 - 195 lbs.. My wife and I with full fuel in a Corvair powered HDS would still leave about 60 some pounds below HDS gross for luggage. On our recent 2 day trip to the Mid Atlantic Fly-In we only carried about 25 lbs. of luggage (and that included the small Coleman cooler with 6 drinks and ice). The same full fuel setup in a XL would only allow us an additional 30 pounds or so.

3. My basement workshop will allow me to assemble the HDS fuselage on it's gear and still be able to walk around it. The XL would only allow me access to 3 sides. Yes, the extra 12" makes that much difference.

4. Like some of you, I just think it looks sexier, lol.



I plan to use the plane to travel without having to fight traffic. I live right in between the Greensboro area and the Raleigh-Durham area of North Carolina on the I-85/40 corridor. To go anywhere by interstate I have to go through one of these two areas. The traffic and road construction has been horrible for over 10 years now. Our local airport is still a "country" airport, no tower, no heavy traffic and very friendly. Yet the runway is 100' wide and over 5000' long. Not a bad combination and in unclassified air space.

btucke73(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Snip:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Re performance-- while I have heard that the cruse

and top speeds of 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  XL and HDS are inflated I find them to be

conservative. I know of at 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  least one local Jab powered XL that is probably

capable of  150 plus >mph WOT.  Mine is  slower than
	


that but not a lot.  I cruse at >125-128 >mph and burn

 about 4.3 gph.



     Not splitting hairs here, but the Jab is capable

of putting out more than the 65 - 115 hp, which is why

WOT speed is high.  Their test bed was the 80hp Rotax.

 Your reported cruise speed is actually 7 mph slower

than their listed cruise speed (80 hp) at:

http://zenithair.com/zodiac/601-hds.html

While anything over 120 is good enough for me, I would

hesitate to call their 135 mph "conservative."  



Respectfully,



Brandon

HDS Corvair



__________________________________________________

btucke73(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Snip:



 	  Quote: 	
		  3. My basement workshop will allow me to assemble the

HDS fuselage >on it's gear and still be able to walk
	


around it. The XL would only allow >me access to 3

sides.  Yes, the extra 12" makes that much difference.



     The HDS center wing is much wider than the XL,

which made it more difficult to get around in my

garage.  Mine would not fit in my garage once I built

the cowling, so I just removed the rudder until I was

ready to take it to the airport.  What dimension of

the XL is 12" shorter than the HDS?  



R/



Brandon

__________________________________________________

jsimons2

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Burlington, NC

Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Hi Brandon,

   Yes, the center wing is wider on the HDS. However, the gear track (center to center of wheels) on the XL is 84" (7'). Now if you add 3" to each wheel for the rest of the tire and wheel pants............................. gee, you have 90". The same as the width of the center wing on the HDS. The length I was refering to was the fuselage length, front of nose bowl to back edge of rudder. The HDS is 19' long, the XL is 20'. My basement is approximately 21' long maybe 22' at the most. But it is about 15' wide. This gives me room for the aircraft and my workbench without being pinched. Not as much room as I would like to have, but it's enough.

Peter Barthold

Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 25
Location: Germany

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Hi Jerome,



one of the main reasons I chose the HDS was the size of the parts. I am alone most of the building time, so I figured that handling a 3piece wing would be way easier for a single person than a 2 piece wing. A recent visit at a friends XL workshop confirmed my opinion. 

Second reason, a HDS is (in theoretical numbers) more rugged than a XL (+6g compared  to +4g or so) although very theoretical this will help with my heart frequency in bumpy German weather 



..took the taildrag just for cosmetic reasons. The one and only thing I hate about 601s is the look of the trigear undercarriage...too short coupled between nose and mains. I never got to fly a 601TD yet but if it is even half as docile as the trigear it is more than ok for me.



one more thing: if you consider building from scratch, get the DVD set from HomebuildHelp.com . Very well invested money, no matter how experienced you are.....just my opinion of course 



Greetings from Germany



Peter

HDS TD VW

Tailkit done

Wing in progress

www.petersprojekt42.de

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Ditto to the HBH video. Wish I'd had it earlier

                                                                Bill



 	  Quote: 	
		   one more thing: if you consider building from scratch, get the DVD set 

 from HomebuildHelp.com . >

jsimons2

Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Burlington, NC

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Zodiac 601 HDS and Corvair engine

Hi guys,

     Thanks for the advice about the 2 DVD set from homebuildhelp.com.

However......................................it should be here tomorrow. Hehe, I ordered it last week. Figured it would be of use to study before I got in over my head.

 

To Ron Butterfield,

     Nice to know someone lives that close to me. I see in the phone book you live on Cornwallis Ct.. We will deffinately have to share ideas once I start building. I'm still in the prep stages right now, you know, gathering tools, getting workshop ready, still have to purchase plans, ect..  I'm not too far away. I live on Carolina Rd. close to Five Points store. 



Does anyone know how much can be "stolen" from the XL and used on the HDS. I know the canopy can be. What about the gear? The spring gear, I would think, would be lighter and stronger than the traditional HD/HDS gear. Any ideas?



Jerome

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum