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Arplast PV 50 Prop
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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hello All.

 1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. 

Is there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some information on this prop.??

There is no UK agent.

2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with Araldite and repainting  the tips.

The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 hours,?? i have no idear when it was last  balanced, but it seems OK in flight.

"Some say" it will need re balancing, in an ideal world i would go along with that, but its not an ideal world,and the use of common sence needed.

However i stand to be corrected if needed.

I now nothing about balancing props,but think the prop could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but with intolerance.

The only way to really know is to check the balance before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are talking about small repairs not big dobs of paint. 

Has anyone done this, and can give an answer.



Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Alan,

filling dings in the leading edge won't have much effect but uneven painting could. It is possible to check the balance statically using a scale

accurate to a tenth of a gram. You will need to make a jig with a knife edge pivot at one end, which effectively  represents the centre of the prop.



Each blade is fixed on the jig in such a position that it's root end is the correct distance from the centre. Now a second knife edge (or indeed a single point) at roughly half the length of the blade, (not critical) is placed on the scale and the weight noted. This weight is now the "moment" of that blade about the centre of the prop. Obviously the moment of all three blades must be the same for good balance.

It's interesting to note that the weight of each blade may not be identical, it's the  "moment"  (= weight X distance) that must be the same.

Hope that's clear?

We used to balance wooden props to respond to the weight of a postage stamp on one end using a pair of level knife edges and the prop on a central spindle. We used an extra coat of paint to achieve final balance.

The Arplast blades have a 1/4" hole drilled from the root to about 1/3 span. Lead shot was used to achieve balance, sealed in with epoxy resin.



Graham



        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Wednesday, 26  September 2012, 23:11

 Subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hello All.

 1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. 

Is there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some information on this prop.??

There is no UK agent.

2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with Araldite and repainting  the tips.

The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 hours,?? i have no idear when it was last  balanced, but it seems OK in flight.

"Some say" it will need re balancing, in an ideal world i would go along with that, but its not an ideal world,and the use of common sence needed.

However i stand to be corrected if  needed.

I now nothing about balancing props,but think the prop could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but with intolerance.

The only way to really know is to check the balance before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are talking about small repairs not big dobs of paint. 

Has anyone done this, and can give an answer.



Alan





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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Alan, it would be worth contacting Mark Burton, a long 

time Europa owner with an Arplast, who knows all about 

prop balancing. As proprietor of Smart Avionics he 

manufactures an inexpensive prop balancer, as well as the 

prop controller and the SmartASS airspeed 

speaker/director. His email attached.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ



On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:11:15 -0700

  "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hello All.

 1. I have a Arplast PV50, if a prop can be called a 

wobbly prop the PV 50 fits the bill. 

 Is there a PV 50 owner out there who can give me some 

information on this prop.??

 There is no UK agent.

 2.I have been filling the chips in the leading edge with 

Araldite and repainting  the tips.

 The prop is about 10 years old and done about 400 

hours,?? i have no idear when it was last  balanced, but 

it seems OK in flight.

 "Some say" it will need re balancing, in an ideal world 

i would go along with that, but its not an ideal 

world,and the use of common sence needed.

 However i stand to be corrected if needed.

 I now nothing about balancing props,but think the prop 

could now be slightly more or slightly less inbalance,but 

with intolerance.

 The only way to really know is to check the balance 

before then after the repairs, and see the effect. We are 

talking about small repairs not big dobs of paint. 

 Has anyone done this, and can give an answer.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384047#384047

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Admin.

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:33 am Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

I can say that using Mark's prop balancer is so easy its almost like cheating.



 From my limited experience variations in the blades are not big contributor.  On an Airmaster hub it seems like most of the balance / imbalance comes from the hub/spinner. This is counter intuitive to me, I would have expected that with the blade having a larger angular moment that it would be the biggest contributor.

 

Paul



do not archive



On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 1:47 AM, David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

  

 

 Alan, it would be worth contacting Mark Burton, a long time Europa owner with an Arplast, who knows all about prop balancing. As proprietor of Smart Avionics he manufactures an inexpensive prop balancer, as well as the prop controller and the SmartASS airspeed speaker/director. His email attached.

  Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

[b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hello All.

Many thanks for replies.

Graham i think you mean remove the blade first,then use the jig as described , i would bet money that works as good as the modern technology.

But at my time in life all i want to do is fly, so need the cheating way.

I have a Controller by Smart Avionics and see the Prop balancer on there Web Site is about 5 or 600 pounds and not sure but an Android PC, far to expensive for me, so will try talking to Mark.

But i thought the Europa Club had one, i have  e-mail the Club.

As for the PV 50, i have spoken the the aircraft's builder and he tells me movement of up to 10 deg, is OK, I now have the Arplast e-mail address as well.

I also have an e-mail from Airmaster, an a complete prop and complete system for a Europa is about Â£4500 plus carriage. 

My Chips are filled and my tip are 2 1/2" of White and Red so hope alls well.

I lost a blade many years ago and force landed at Brands Hatch all was OK but not sure how these little aeroplane would handle it, I would like to see  steel wires attached Bulk Head to the engine just to keep it in general location if all hell broke loose, but i not a builder.



Alan

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:44 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hi! Alan  Peter Jeffers has the club balancer you would get his e-mail

address from the \Europa Flyer.However I think he is imminently going to the

States for two months.

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Thanks Bob.

I will get in contact with him, maybe i can get him to check the prop and give my plane a look over at the same time, I have flown about 40 hour in it now and frequently put my hand on the top of the combing to check the vibration its a bit crud, its not fine tuning but i would know if there was a change, this is not written down in any manual but you get to know, so far it been very smooth.

Props are very important and regular balancing essential if you want to keep costly repairs down.  



Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Alan

carb balance is equaly as important as prop balance on the Rotax, and is more likely to change 



spontaneously than prop balance.

Graham

        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 27 September 2012, 23:47

 Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Thanks Bob.

I will get in contact with him, maybe i can get him to check the prop and give my plane a look over at the same time, I have flown about 40 hour in it now and frequently put my hand on the top of the combing to check the vibration its a bit crud, its not fine tuning but i would know if there was a change, this is not written down in any  manual but you get to know, so far it been very smooth.

Props are very important and regular balancing essential if you want to keep costly repairs down.  



Alan





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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384100#avigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================



 

 

   

 [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Thanks Graham.

But for now i will settle with having the plane looked over and getting the prop checked for balance when i find some one to do it which is the main problem.



Regards

Alan



.

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hi All. 

Just keep things simple, but with regards  to propellers.

One blade rotating is out of balance, add another blade then more balanced, then add another blade even  more balanced so end up with four blades even better.

Well that's the way i see it, but is that really the case, which can you balance the best a two bladed prop or a three bladed prop for the same out of balance error.

Does a two bladed prop have certain advantages, besides being broader and  stronger, I don,t want to know about Blade Interference, just any other points. Anybody !! You are not being tested.



Graham, good point on carbs, maybe this one in your expertise.

 

Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

3 blades are always smoother. Unless the axis of the engine is exactly coaxial withe line of flight, the assymetric loads as the blades pass through horizontal cannot be balanced. Nothing to do with mass, it's the different AoA of the two blades.

Graham

        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 28 September 2012, 23:07

 Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

Hi All. 

Just keep things simple, but with regards  to propellers.

One blade rotating is out of balance, add another blade then more balanced, then add another blade even  more balanced so end up with four blades even better.

Well that's the way i see it, but is that really the case, which can you balance the best a two bladed prop or a three bladed prop for the same out of balance error.

Does a two bladed prop have certain advantages, besides being broader and  stronger, I don,t want to know about Blade Interference,  just any other points. Anybody !! You are not being tested.

Graham, good point on carbs, maybe this one in your expertise.

Alan

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 [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Grayham.

Yes as i thought, seem to remember something about assymetric blade effect critical speeds on twins, to long ago.

But is there something good about a two bladed prop, Less Gyroscopic effect ??

Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:55 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

I would have thought more not less. The moment of inertia of a 2 blade might be more because of a bigger diameter?

Smoothness is more valuable; less vibration, less disruption of laminar fow, less wear and tear of the engine and airframe

Graham



        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com  

 Sent: Friday, 28 September 2012, 23:39

 Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Grayham.

Yes as i thought, seem to remember something about assymetric blade effect critical speeds on twins, to long ago.

But is there something good about a two bladed prop, Less Gyroscopic effect ??

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384164#384164          - The Europa-List Email cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na=               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS=                               -Matt Drallontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hi Graham.

That all sounds logical to me, but I am just wondering why some Europa,s have two blades and others three, as it seems three would be the best. However i notice in the hanger at Headcorne  many performance and aerobatic aircraft are fitted with a two bladed prop which caused me to think why.?? The only reason i would think that its more stronger but was wondering if there were any other benefits ?

Did 3 hours today all when well.



Alan

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hi Alan,



I think the vast majority of GA aircraft have 2 blade props.

Mine has 2 blades, or at least I did until recently. I chose it partly because of the motorglider wings for better visibility when feathered. Other advantages are: cheaper, less weight, it is much easier to remove the bottom cowling, it sounds better, easier to ship if you need an overhaul.

The only snag with the Europa is: because it has to be longer it is unsuitable for the mono, and the trigear needs to have the nose raised a bit.

It is just as smooth as the 3-blade, so long as your carbs are properly synchronized.

Karl



[quote] Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:48:54 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi Graham.

 That all sounds logical to me, but I am just wondering why some Europa,s have two blades and others three, as it seems three would be the best. However i notice in the hanger at Headcorne  many performance and aerobatic aircraft are fitted with a two bladed prop which caused me to think why.?? The only reason i would think that its more stronger but was wondering if there were any other benefits ?

 Did 3 hours today all when well.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384247#384247

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Hi Karl.

Well we do have some reasons why.

Less weight ?

Smooth as a a 3 bladed prop.?

I no nothing, but i would guess the more blades the smoother, think of of a one bladed propeller.



There quit a lot when you look into it, may be more .

Alan

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Alan,



I know you are right, but I am only going by my own experience, because I have both.

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:53:08 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi Karl.

 Well we do have some reasons why.

 Less weight ?

 Smooth as a a 3 bladed prop.?

 I no nothing, but i would guess the more blades the smoother, think of of a one bladed propeller.

 

 There quit a lot when you look into it, may be more .

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384256#384256

 

 <br=

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

I forgot to mention, less drag is another difference.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:53:08 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 Hi Karl.

 Well we do have some reasons why.

 Less weight ?

 Smooth as a a 3 bladed prop.?

 I no nothing, but i would guess the more blades the smoother, think of of a one bladed propeller.

 There quit a lot when you look into it, may be more .

 Alan

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=384256#384256

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&gt========================

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast PV 50 Prop

Karl.

No, I am never sure of myself, some times things work in the reverse to what one would think, that's why i posted the question. 



Alan

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: Arplast PV 50 Prop

If you look at the current "production" aircraft both fixed wing and rotor

they are all moving to 5 blades or

More, Personally I think that speaks volumes.



Regards and good building



Craig

Do Not Archive 



Well we do have some reasons why.

Less weight ?

Smooth as a a 3 bladed prop.?

I no nothing, but i would guess the more blades the smoother, think of of a

one bladed propeller.



There quit a lot when you look into it, may be more .

Alan

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