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jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Alan-



Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor and hire someone in the UK that knows Europas well and have them fix it.  This particular issue is too important to take a chance on screwing it up.  Even those of us who have done the build from step one are not 100% comfortable with this mod.  The result of tailplane flutter can be catastrophic.  It is very hard to find someone who has experienced it to talk to without using a Psychic intermediary.  

Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy a used home built.  The airworthiness criteria are markedly different between certificated and non-certificated airplanes.  Then again, so are the costs.  

Good luck!  Take care of it; it is important!

Jim Puglise

N238JL

Punta Gorda, FL   



From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM

Subject: Re: Mod 73



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>



Hi Carl.

I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.

If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place.



There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9  your idea would only make good the TB12 pins,  and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage.  



 I agree, Yes it is complicated,

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: Mod 73

The play is in the TP12/TP14D pin,  so my fix would be a darn sight better than attempting to GLUE vital pitch control components together. If I get someone else to make up the inserts, it would take me about an hour to implement for one side.



Cheers,



Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Mod 73

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:49:58 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi Carl.

 I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.

 If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now gripping the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was in-place.

 

 There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9  your idea would only make good the TB12 pins,  and the play might be in the TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage.  

 

  I agree, Yes it is complicated,

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408

 

 

 

 

&gt=======================
	


&g================

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	




 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Sage advice Jim. 

     

     If anyone has any doubts as to what tailplane flutter can do, take a     look at the NTSB report on the "Galloping Ghost" incident at Reno     last year.

     

     http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf 

     

     The high-res photos of the distortion to the rear fuselage give a     clue as to the forces involved. 

     I had the misfortune to witness a plane go down right in front of me     at Reno a few years ago as a result of an overstressed elevator trim     tab letting go. What is hard to appreciate is how quickly it happens     - from the onset of flutter to hitting the ground is just seconds.     The sheer violence of the destruction is sickening.

     

     Nigel

     

     On 16/10/2012 00:05,       jimpuglise(at)comcast.net (jimpuglise(at)comcast.net) wrote:

     

     [quote]       p { margin: 0; }       Alan-         

         

         Your curiosity is a good thing, but do yourself a big favor           and hire someone in the UK that knows Europas well and have           them fix it.  This particular issue is too important to take a           chance on screwing it up.  Even those of us who have done the           build from step one are not 100% comfortable with this mod.            The result of tailplane flutter can be catastrophic.  It is           very hard to find someone who has experienced it to talk to           without using a Psychic intermediary.  

         

         

         Unfortunately, these are the chances you take when you buy           a used home built.  The airworthiness criteria are markedly           different between certificated and non-certificated airplanes.            Then again, so are the costs.  

         

         

         Good luck!  Take care of it; it is important!

         

         

         Jim Puglise

         N238JL

         Punta Gorda, FL   

           

           From: "Alan Carter"           <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)

           To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

           Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:58 PM

           Subject: Re: Mod 73

           

           --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter"           <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)

           

           Hi Carl.

           I have the same 1mm. at the TP12 PLATE.

           If you are saying you have removed the Stabilator and are now           gripping the TB12 plate and it moves 1mm , this would scale up           to about 1/2" at the trailing edge of the Stabilator if it was           in-place.

           

           There are pins on the TB12 and on the TB9  your idea would           only make good the TB12 pins,  and the play might be in the           TB9 Bell-crank in the centre of the fuselage.  

           

            I agree, Yes it is complicated,

           Alan

           

           

           

           

           Read this topic online here:

           

           http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385408#385408

           _p;                     &n====================

             

             

             

           

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Hi Karl.

I see its just in the outer pins you have play in, 

How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft,?



Hi Jim.

Many thanks for you concerns, I have many years experience, I am very careful, and meticulous to detail,  so will get it all fixed and signed up properly.

I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture, I hope to get some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on the forum, wobbling of the stabilators, lets have some detail as to what really happens,   always plan 6 miles ahead, 

The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128,000ft

nearly as high as my Europa goes.

Regards 

Alan

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Hi Alan,



You are up late. I have only play in the hole for the TP14D. I grab the two TP13 pins on the TP12 and then try to rotate the TP12, at the same time watching the torque tube. If the tube remains stationary but the TP12 moves, then the play is in between the two.

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Mod 73

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:07:43 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi Karl.

 I see its just in the outer pins you have play in, 

 How can i determine if i only have play in the outer pins on my aircraft,?

 

 Hi Jim.

 Many thanks for you concerns, I have many years experience, I am very careful, and meticulous to detail,  so will get it all fixed and signed up properly.

 I ask many searching little question to build up the big picture, I hope to get some feed back on Flutter so i can be prepared it talked about on the forum, wobbling of the stabilators, lets have some detail as to what really happens,   always plan 6 miles ahead, 

 The Internet is a fountain of knowledge. What a great jump 128,000ft

 nearly as high as my Europa goes.

 Regards 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385422#385422

 

 

 

 

========================

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Hi Karl.

Yes i should really try to get to bed earlier, but having flow day and night all my life, i am use to it, but it shortens your life i am told.

Thanks for your answer, It sound good to me,

Hope you fix it Ok let me know how it goes.

All the best

Alan

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: Mod 73

Hi Karl,

   Why wouldn't it work ?

   It would pin the TP12 to the torque tube... but, think where the load from the tailplane is at it's highest, yes, just before it goes into the brass bearing bonded to the fuselage.............. and picture the torque tube as a spar, you have just drilled holes through the spar caps.......................................

    The removal of the assembly, and reaming and fitting oversize pins is the only way to go, quite easy as I have described, as long as you have access to a good machine shop with guys there who know what they are doing, then it is almost guaranteed to be a success. WITH AN  0.007'' INTERFERENCE FIT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO MOVE.

   Use Loctite or Bob's clamps after this fix as a belt and braces if you want peace of mind, either of these without doing the pins first is not good enough.

   Cheers,

   Nev.

 

 

 

   --

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Hi Karl

That,s a good point Neville has mentioned ,the hole is on the outside of the bearing support, i can see what he means ie look at it as a spare, better re think on this one,

As for hole,s, to get at these pins, from the outside of the aircraft.

From the inspection hole under on the side of the fuselage under the  Stabilator can you get to the pins to remove them,

If you placed an inspection hole in the fin above the tube this would seem the best point to do all work from, But we come to the question would this weaken the Fin.?? Bud mentioned a inspection hole ??



Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Karl.

I had forgotten about your solid core, so if you going to bond a solid alloy core inside the tube spanning both side your dowel hole, then clamping up. i would think that the tube is now stronger at that point, as you have re enforced it.

If only the ruddy pins were accessible from a panel the job would be a piece of cake.

Alan

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: Mod 73

I mentioned earlier I also went the solid core option, very quick and easy

to do,

However.. my lack of precision when drilling one of the outboard holes out

to

The 3/8 size resulted in a small misalignment between each of the tail

planes

(About 5mm at the back) so I had to remove one set of the drive pin bushes

And re redux them in to correct this. I do however have my own lathe and

mill

And was able to turn and polish the alloy slugs that go inside the tube to a

very

Neat fit. Paying someone to do it you might be looking at an hour for the

four slugs



Regards

craig  

Karl.

I had forgotten about your solid core, so if you going to bond a solid alloy

core inside the tube spanning both side your dowel hole, then clamping up. i

would think that the tube is now stronger at that point, as you have re

enforced it.

If only the ruddy pins were accessible from a panel the job would be a piece

of cake.

Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Craig.

Slugs over here are pests in the garden , but i know what you mean,all good ideas.  

Lots of solutions have been posted, But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins, Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny,s clamps,

Re Loctite use, or fitting one of Europa,s updated tubes.

Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really usefall to UK owners, as the tube has to come out.

Alan

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Alan-



There has been some discussion on here about additional inspection ports or changing the size of those existing.  As I recall, the recommendation was that you have any such changes reviewed by a structural engineer before making them.  The concern is that these types of change may weaken a structural area.

Jim Puglise

N283JL

Punta Gorda, FL 



From: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:48:52 PM

Subject: Re: Mod 73



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>



Craig.

Slugs over here are pests in the garden , but i know what you mean,all good ideas.  

Lots of solutions have been posted, But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins, Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny,s clamps,

Re Loctite use, or fitting one of Europa,s updated tubes.

Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really usefall to UK owners, as the tube has to come out.

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com;              -Matt Dralle, List Admin.========



 [quote][b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Hi Alan,



Your points about access are very valid. You can just about get to the pins, pull out the cotter pins etc. via the access window and viewing window every Europa is supposed to have, but it is a real bitch.

My idea was to replace the round access hole with a larger rectangular opening, suitably re-enforced, 

but I was unable to get any engineering support on this. The idea of having to crawl into the fuselage for maintenance and mods is absolutely absurd.

Craig's and my ideas about the solid core are just common sense. I will do my fix just as I described, but it is not on the top of my list at the moment. 

If you can get the faulty TP14 pin out, then you can do the same, but you probably wouldn't be able to tighten the pin or bolt, because there is no space at the back of the tube for a locknut, just a washer and cotter pin (at least on my Europa). You can still remove any play by turning the insert hard against the pin before the redux has cured. You are then as good as new and don't have to tell anyone about it.

Cheers,

Karl



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Mod 73

 From: alancarteresq(at)onetel.net

 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:48:52 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Craig.

 Slugs over here are pests in the garden , but i know what you mean,all good ideas.  

 Lots of solutions have been posted, But here in the UK the only options we have are Resizing the pins, Fitting Bob Harrison or Pat Tunny,s clamps,

 Re Loctite use, or fitting one of Europa,s updated tubes.

 Anything about inspection panel and access to the pins would be really usefall to UK owners, as the tube has to come out.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385505#385505

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=====================

 _====

 

 

 


	




 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Jim.

Will  make some use of my membership and ask the LAA , it would make the job much easier. Will post reply here.

Alan

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Hi Alan,

   Refer to the Builders Manual, Chapter 23, pages 2, 3 and 4 for view / access panel position and structure.

   This is how it should have been done by the original builder..... but some out there thought they knew better.......

   Do these on the Stb side if you are right handed, on the Port if you are left handed. Very difficult to do once the fuselage top is on. If there is an inspection hole further aft where the XS tailspring was installed, you can work through that to do the lay up's for the new panels. I had to do just that to get to the torque tube on the imported Europa I have in my workshop

   As to the inserts / slugs, next time you are in Ronnie McVomit's, get a straw and flex it between your fingers, it will bend quite a way without failing.... now shove a stiring stick up the straw and apply the same force, it will buckle where the stick ends.[ have a jacket on with deep pockets, liberate a handfull of mixing sticks !]

   Don't reckon on anything fast happening at L.A.A.

   Cheers,

   Nev.

 

 

 

   --

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Thanks Neville.

Phoned the LAA today ref. New Inspection Hole.

Basically No,

As i,m in the UK its new dowels and clamps approved by LAA.

So i have to find a small person to climb down inside the tunnel after having removed the mass balance weight.

I assume this is the easiest way to get at the pins, as you  can see them.

Obviously with the tail propped,and all the panels off for light and air.  

If i go about it this way. 

How long to get it out., and do you see any other problem,

Regards 

Alan

ptag.dev(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Yes, don't do it alone without a mobile phone with you to call for help when

you get cramp and before you pass out with pain !

What b.......drip would leave you without an access panel ? Hope you never

need the trim motor out !!!

Been there got both "tee" shirts !

Bob H  G-PTAG !



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Thanks Bob.

Will have some body with me, and mobile ,good thinking Bob.

Don,t put it on your Tee Shirt, you will get 4 months in the slammer.

Alan

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: Mod 73

Hi Alan,

   Can't believe LaaLaaLand won't let you put Inspection Panels in as per the Manual ?

   If you have no panels back there at all, installing some as directed in the relevant Chapter won't be a ''Mod'', just bringing you airframe in compliance with what has been approved ?

   The small spy hole lets you see in there, the larger access hole is in the correct position for you to get your arm in, folded round the corner and able to work on the torque tube / trim items. 

   I would be tempted to do it, get it signed off by an Inspector, raise a Worksheet and make an entry in the aircraft's Log Book, at the same time as doing the pin work.

   On next years Permit Renewal Form, in the ''any repairs / work carried out since the last Permit'' question, list the Pin repair work and the addition of inspection panels as per Chapter 23, P 3,4,5 ?

   The torque tube CAN be got out by working down the ''tunnel''.

   As you have noted, support the rear fuselage with a padded trestle. Fill the baggage area with foam / cushions to the height of the seatback / D panel hole so you can ''surf'' in and out. If you have the Classic fuel filler, take the hose off and plug the tank inlet.

   Get cushions and carpet offcuts in the rear hull so you don't point load the skin with elbows etc, 3 or 4 layers of carpet / underlay should do. Unbolt the pitch pushrod containment tower and remove, should be 8 bolts / nuts holding it to the hull / roof, and 2 on the wooden cross piece [ 3/8'' & 1/4'' spanners].Weight the tailplanes aft down and tie the stick forward to park the mass balance weight up in the roof. Surf aft and unbolt the mass balance arm, 2 bolts / nuts [3/8''&1/4''] and pushrod, 1 bolt / nut [1/2'' &3/8'' ] from the horn. Bung the arm out and lay the pushrod in the hull. Pad under / over the pushrod so any body weight on it doesn't hurt it.Also protect the two glass lay up brackets in the hull for the tower, fill between with stiff foam so they don't get broken.

   Pad your self up from the hull with cushions so you adopt the ''Superman'' position, with your arm outstretched in front of you, you will have to hold yourself up with the palm of your hand while you are straightening the split pin and pulling it out, pointed nose pliers and gently used cutters are needed to pull / curl the split pins out. Start with the outer pins first.

   Pull the drive pin out with Mole Grips.

   You can now rotate the entire torque tube to allow better access to the remaining 2 split pins.

   Mark everything as to its position, I put a red blob inside the bottom of the port end on the main tube [ paint or nail varnish ] this won't get knocked off at the Machine Shop. Mark all else with a indellable marker pen, ie Port / Stb TP12, TP 10 collars, with both the writing as to where, and a line though the lot so it can go together on the bench back in the same way. The red nail varnish on the Port TP12 in a place that won't get knocked off is a good plan.

   Cool lighting in there is needed, so not a 100 watt lead lamp ! and a fan blowing in helps.

   Could take 3 to 4 hours of sweating and swearing to get it out, bit longer to put it back.

   Tools needed. Imperial spanners [ wrenches for those in the US]  & Imperial sockets [ 1/4'' , 3/8'' , 1/2''] needle nose pliers, Mole [Vise] grips, side cutters, copper / hide hammer, a selection of punches, magnetic bowl [ to put the bolts / nuts in when you are in there, to stop them escaping ] and a swear box. I have the cranked arm / long pushrod ratchet spanners which help to reach the bolt heads. To get a spanner on the nuts [1/4'' & 3/8''] I have B&Q plastic13mm double pipe clips [ as used to mount central heating pipes] to bolt the other end of the spanners to, which spring on to the two 1/2'' tube arms [ you can't get both arms up there at the same time ]. 

   Entrust the assembly to a good Machine Shop to drill / ream to suit the O/S pins.

   Fitting is the reverse of dismantling, only more difficult ! Hard bit is getting the new pins aimed to go in and come out the other side ! I am working on a clamp / aiming / thumbscrew / press gizzmo at the moment, watch this space. 

    

    

   --

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Mod 73

Hello Neville.

Many thanks for the detailed instructions, this really sound like one hell of a of job to do.

Have you ever seen a Whale Surf, i think i will send boy Robin down the tunnel while i stay in the bat-mobile.

I will print your instruction off, and check i have all the tools as listed.

As for going down the tunnel, I am 14 stone so plan finding a small person to go down the tunnel for me, this will cost me quite a few Beers!!

I have not looked down the tunnel yet, but was planning maybe two lengths of wood mounted on layers of carpet laid along each side of the tunnel with plywood screwed to them, so as to make a platform to lay on above any controls lines, and to spread the load, then get boy Robin to Surf down there.

Will remove back panel and have a look to see if this is possible.

But if you think this is not a good idea, please post.

Regards

Alan

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