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Open source wig-wag project

 
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

Master byte thrasher Paul is putting some
final touches on the software for the AEC9012
Programmable Wig-Wag controller. I ran some tests
on the bench with 55w halogen lamps and was gratified
at the response rate of these bulbs in a triple-
flash mode.

First passes at the software offered a single-flash
mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash
mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds.
As you can see in this video . . .

http://tinyurl.com/c5uzsjd

. . . the halogen lamps intensity modulate quite nicely in the
triple-flash mode so we're eliminating the single flash
mode. Further, we've added a software option that installer
can select that makes the AEC9012 compatible with either single
or two-switch panel controls.

A production quantity of boards arrived today. Some
additional parts are expected Saturday. The data
package for project will be posted at

http://tinyurl.com/bpoqdj7

Paul is having so much fun at the computer he's already
bugging me for the next project.

Many thanks to Greg and Paul who have so successfully
wrangled the bytes into doing a good thing.
Bob . . .


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

I had a query about source and object code for the wig-wag
controller. As soon as Paul puts the final polish on it,
both the hex and c-source codes will be published as well.


Bob . . .


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millner(at)me.com
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

On 12/7/2012 11:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
First passes at the software offered a single-flash
mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash
mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds.

Bob,

How well would these work with HID lamps?

Paul


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

At 07:11 PM 12/9/2012, you wrote:
Quote:

On 12/7/2012 11:03 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>First passes at the software offered a single-flash
>mode (ostensibly for tungsten lamps) and a triple-flash
>mode for LED lamps due to their faster switching speeds.

Bob,

How well would these work with HID lamps?

Unknown. I think there has been conversation here on
the List indicating that some HID lamps can be flashed
but not all. I've got some I can hook up here on the
bench. When I ran them in my car, I think it took about
20-30 seconds for them to 'warm up' to full light output
after a cold start.

It MIGHT be that they would flash well if they were
operated on-steady for a minute before going to the
wig-wag mode . . .

Have you operated your proposed HID lamps with any
sort of flasher in the past? You could test the
suitability by simply turning one of them on/off
at about 1/2 second per flash. Right now the 9012
is set up for triple flash but COULD be offered in
single flash mode.
Bob . . .


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millner(at)me.com
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

On 12/9/2012 5:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
Have you operated your proposed HID lamps with any
sort of flasher in the past?

I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell
(joint development project). And Precise Flight sells a modified
flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of flashing
stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional PulseLight,
supposedly.

Paul


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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

Quote:
I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell
(joint development project). And Precise Flight sells a modified
flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of
flashing stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional
PulseLight, supposedly.

I've pondered the operating temperature thing. When
you simply wig-wag two lamps, energy feed to each
lamp drops by 50%. I you 'triple-flash' the lamps
as demonstrated in my video, the duty cycle becomes
33% of 50% or 17%.

These lamps MIGHT stay warm enough to accommodate
legacy 50-50 wig wag but probably not at 17-17.

I'll do some fiddling with the lamps I have on hand
at the next opportunity.

Has anyone on the List successfully flashed HID lamps
with even a 50-50 wig-wag control philosophy?

Someone sent me a couple of lamp assemblies to
have on hand for the next opportunity I had to get
into the RF Lab. I also have a pair of aftermarket
conversion lamps that I tried for a time in my Kia
minivan. Took them out after a couple of months.

So I've got three different lamps/ballast combinations
to try.
Bob . . .


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Mark(at)wessonair.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

We have to ask. Why did you pull them out of the KIA?
Mark Wesson
President / Owner

mark(at)wessonair.com
Ph # 407-831-5061
Fax # 407-831-2570
http://www.wessonair.com


--


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difisher43(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

Bob,

My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights andbought a wig-wag module from Perihilion
click on this link: http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htmWe did use another device from
him which I can't recall the name of right now. The wig-wag and lights worked great.

Dick Fisher



On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>


Quote:
I have not, but they are the ones Precise Flight and Knots 2 U sell (joint development project). And Precise Flight sells a modified flasher for them (made of deep unobtanium)... so some kind of flashing stratagem supposedly works, though not the conventional PulseLight, supposedly.

I've pondered the operating temperature thing. When
you simply wig-wag two lamps, energy feed to each
lamp drops by 50%. I you 'triple-flash' the lamps
as demonstrated in my video, the duty cycle becomes
33% of 50% or 17%.

These lamps MIGHT stay warm enough to accommodate
legacy 50-50 wig wag but probably not at 17-17.

I'll do some fiddling with the lamps I have on hand
at the next opportunity.

Has anyone on the List successfully flashed HID lamps
with even a 50-50 wig-wag control philosophy?

Someone sent me a couple of lamp assemblies to
have on hand for the next opportunity I had to get
into the RF Lab. I also have a pair of aftermarket
conversion lamps that I tried for a time in my Kia
minivan. Took them out after a couple of months.

So I've got three different lamps/ballast combinations
======================ifts!)
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corey.crawford(at)gmail.c
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

One of the vendors on VAF got a patent for some device that warms up HIDs before flashing them:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=55463
--
Corey Crawford
corey.crawford(at)gmail.com (corey.crawford(at)gmail.com)

[quote][b]


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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 559
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

Quote:
My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher


Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:

1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.
2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.
3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.

BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.

So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's say…) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.


So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

At 01:25 PM 12/10/2012, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Wesson" <Mark(at)wessonair.com>

We have to ask. Why did you pull them out of the KIA?

Wrong color. The biggest night-time hazard
in this part of the world are the road rats

[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20121210201021.0037cc10(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]

The color temperature of the HID lamps
doesn't reflect as well from the fur
of these critters as the more yellow-red
incandescent lamps.

I could visibly illuminate a stop sign
from 1+ miles away but didn't help pick
one of these guys up in the ditch at
200 yards.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that?

Dee
On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Eric M. Jones <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net (emjones(at)charter.net)>


> My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher


Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:

1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.
2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.
3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.

BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.

So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's say) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.

So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.

--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
[url=tel:%28508%29%20764-2072](508) 764-2072[/url]
emjones(at)charter.net




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Eric M. Jones



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 559
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

Quote:
So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that?


To make this abundantly and perfectly clear:...YES and NO.

Personally I love LEDs more. But HIDs are amazing technology, and I can show you why they are the best source available for putting into a reflector.

But when we tested HID power supplies, we cycled them on/off 10,000 times in heat-stressed environments, NOT 2,500 times an hour.

Is is possible that the OEM of the lamps and/or HID power supplies would provide a written guarantee of the lamps and/or power supplies for the intended use in aircraft Wig-wagging? HELL NO.

Would it be better (only in term of lifetime) to wig-wag HIDs or LEDs? No doubt about it, LEDs.

Is it be vaguely possible that the HIDs will do fine? YES. Could it be that they are worth their weight in gold if it prevents a collision with another aircraft or a fat Canadian goose and to hell with any questions about possible short lifetimes of the HID and/ power supply? YES!

Is it a really bad idea to fly way up off the ground with an airplane you built yourself? Errrrr......

You decide.


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www.PerihelionDesign.com
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emjones(at)charter.net
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

I would like to install a landing light or two and for various reasons I am leaning towards LEDs.

Can anyone recommend some products they are happy with? I mean both the bulbs and the lenses/mounting. If the products are automotive/easy/cheap to source all the better. I have two circular cutouts about 10cm (4.5in) in diameter which would be natural places to mount landing lights. Most of my flying is daytime VFR.

Sacha
On 11/dic/2012, at 15:10, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:

Quote:



> So Eric, although we were told by Vertical Power that our VP-200 will wig/wag our Duckworks HIDs in each wing leading edge, it's a bad idea to do that?


To make this abundantly and perfectly clear:...YES and NO.

Personally I love LEDs more. But HIDs are amazing technology, and I can show you why they are the best source available for putting into a reflector.

But when we tested HID power supplies, we cycled them on/off 10,000 times in heat-stressed environments, NOT 2,500 times an hour.

Is is possible that the OEM of the lamps and/or HID power supplies would provide a written guarantee of the lamps and/or power supplies for the intended use in aircraft Wig-wagging? HELL NO.

Would it be better (only in term of lifetime) to wig-wag HIDs or LEDs? No doubt about it, LEDs.

Is it be vaguely possible that the HIDs will do fine? YES. Could it be that they are worth their weight in gold if it prevents a collision with another aircraft or a fat Canadian goose and to hell with any questions about possible short lifetimes of the HID and/ power supply? YES!

Is it a really bad idea to fly way up off the ground with an airplane you built yourself? Errrrr......

You decide.

--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net




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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Open source wig-wag project Reply with quote

On 12/10/2012 06:17 PM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
Quote:

> My friend and I installed Duckworth HID lights and bought a wig-wag module from Perihilion http://periheliondesign.com/wigwagmnl.htm We did use another device from him.... The wig-wag and lights worked great. Dick Fisher

Thanks, Dick. I still sell the wigwags which work on nearly anything, but the HIDs tripped me up when they first appeared. There are three things to keep in mind:

1) They must be warmed up 20-30 seconds or so first.
2) They need a surge suppressor since the initial lamp turn-on neatly exceeds the mosfet current capability.
3) They need a voltage clipper to prevent the starting voltage from getting back to the mosfet.The zener clippers should be near the ballast but not between the ballast and the lamp.

BTW: here is my tirade against wig-wagging HIDs: In a previous life, I spent almost three decades building high power xenon short-arc, HID, and halogen lamp systems. So I have long experience with both the lamps and their power supplies and their foibles. And I know in excruciating detail what is needed to wig-wag them.

So my problem is--everything I know says not to wig-wag the HID lamps because they will have shorter lamp lifetimes. Everything that is an advantage of HID lamps disappears quickly if one abuses them by (Oh, let's say…) 2500 restarts per hour! Many problems with HIDs don't occur in any simple way either. There are second- and even third- order problems to contend with. Furthermore, switched-mode power supplies and starters are particularly failure-prone when abused. I can guarantee that the manufacturer of the lamp-supply-starter DO NOT warranty their devices to be used in this fashion.

So even though HIDs are the cat's meow, I'd use halogens or LEDs. It's true, you can do deer-jacking at the other end of the runway with HIDs...but do you really need to do that? I still advise people to use LEDs, or hold out for a little while to get the LEDs you want. A couple CREE Ultrafires will land my airplane now.

--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

Hi Eric,


I'm intrigued by your last comment. Assuming you weren't kidding, can
you compare the 'real world' performance of the CREEs to something we're
all familiar with, like the traditional 100W incandescent landing
(tractor) lights or the commonly used 50 & 75 watt MR16 10 degree halogens?

Thanks,

Charlie


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