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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel pump use |
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Sorry, the above post to Robert is in the wrong thread.
Bob
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_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB |
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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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When I talked to vans about my observations, they told me they saw low fuel pressure on long extended climb outs so they just turned on the boost pump and the pressure came back up. No problem. Silence on my end, never mind.....
Bob Newman
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2013, at 7:31 PM, Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com (rv10rob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Yes, Bob, it's in the tunnel, per plans. I did read your writeup and haven't noticed any of those issues, though.
-Rob
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com (rnewman(at)tcwtech.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rob. I'm curious, do you have your fuel flow transducer in the plans shown location? Since my write-up on fuel flow (and corresponding change to fuel system), my fuel flow and pressure issues are completely gone.
Bob Newman
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com (rv10rob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | In addition to what's already been stated, I've found that if I don't have my electric pump on in a high power climb, my fuel pressure drops below my alarm threshold (15 psi), though the engine seems to run fine.
-Rob
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Steve,
Well, the Continental fuel system in a Bonanza is quite different from the Lyc. I don't have as much experience with Continentals (Kelly??) but I don't think they run without positive fuel pressure either. And, on some Continentals the engine quits if you run "high boost" at the wrong altitude/power setting...yuck. I'd stick with what Beech says.
As far as the minimum "unboosted" altitude, it has more to do with time to respond to a failure than with any physical correlation to ambient pressure. Personally, I try to keep it on below 2000 AGL.
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Steve Farner <steve.farner(at)bellevue.edu (steve.farner(at)bellevue.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Dave- I fly a Lance and a Bonanza, and in the Lance the pump is supposed to be on as you say below (500 feet and lower was how I was taught). The Bonanza does not require this in the checklist, and it is only used for starting….not sure why that is the case, but am curious if anyone knows.
Steve Farner
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 12:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
The main concept to understand about the boost pump is that it's there in case the engine-driven pump fails.
The fuel injection system on our engines won't function (the engine won't run) without something in the neighborhood of 15 psi of fuel pressure. I might be off a few pounds, but the point is that without some kind of fuel pump, either engine driven or electrically driven, the engine won't run. Even the head pressure from a high-wing is insufficient to operate the fuel injection.
What I take away from this is that if I can't tolerate a temporary loss of power then I use the boost pump. So I use it on take-off and landing, or any other time I'm busy and/or close to the ground.
To my way of thinking, the boost pump is an important piece of redundant safety equipment, like a second mag or electrical supply.
Starting is a whole other mode of operation, and another topic for discussion, but in flight the pump should be on whenever you wouldn't have time to mess with a restart due to engine pump failure.
Fly safe!
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Bruce Johnson <bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com (bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
Good question Leon, I have got 85 hrs and have only used the electric pump for starting, I leave it on during cranking and it seems to start better that way. I recently took a guy up and he said on low wing tanks its better to use it on take off and landings????? On my 210 I only used it for start up as well and it did over fuel the system if used in addition while running. On an Enstrom helicopter with gravity feed tanks they run them all the time. So I guess it will be your preference which way you go.
From: Leeverett <Leeverett(at)msn.com (Leeverett(at)msn.com)>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 10:12 PM
Subject: Fuel pump use
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Leeverett" <Leeverett(at)msn.com (Leeverett(at)msn.com)>
I have finished my 10 except for paint and am ready for first flight. I
finished transition training last weekend with Pierrie Smith. It was a great
experience and I recommend him to anyone looking for a CFI. I noted we
only used the electric fuel pump on engine start and not on takeoff,
landing or fuel tank change. Is this everyone's practice or do other folks
have different ideas. Thank. Leon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391785#391785
- The RV10-List Email Forum -
| Quote: | | such as List Un/Subscription, |
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigu> ==================� - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -[u][/u] "_blank">http://forums.matronics.com0
-Matt Dralle, List Admit; http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================1
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--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
3
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4
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Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
5
[b]
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rv10rob(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Yep, Bob, I do see that issue (I didn't remember that part from your report).
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com (rnewman(at)tcwtech.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | When I talked to vans about my observations, they told me they saw low fuel pressure on long extended climb outs so they just turned on the boost pump and the pressure came back up. Â No problem. Â Silence on my end, never mind..... Â Â
Bob NewmanÂ
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2013, at 7:31 PM, Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com (rv10rob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, Bob, it's in the tunnel, per plans. Â I did read your writeup and haven't noticed any of those issues, though.
-Rob
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Bob-TCW <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com (rnewman(at)tcwtech.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Rob. Â I'm curious, do you have your fuel flow transducer in the plans shown location? Â Â Since my write-up on fuel flow (and corresponding change to fuel system), my fuel flow and pressure issues are completely gone. Â Â Â
Bob NewmanÂ
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Rob Kochman <rv10rob(at)gmail.com (rv10rob(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | In addition to what's already been stated, I've found that if I don't have my electric pump on in a high power climb, my fuel pressure drops below my alarm threshold (15 psi), though the engine seems to run fine.Â
-Rob
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Steve,
Well, the Continental fuel system in a Bonanza is quite different from the Lyc. Â I don't have as much experience with Continentals (Kelly??) but I don't think they run without positive fuel pressure either. And, on some Continentals the engine quits if you run "high boost" at the wrong altitude/power setting...yuck. Â I'd stick with what Beech says.
As far as the minimum "unboosted" altitude, it has more to do with time to respond to a failure than with any physical correlation to ambient pressure.  Personally, I try to keep it on below 2000 AGL.
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Steve Farner <steve.farner(at)bellevue.edu (steve.farner(at)bellevue.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Dave- I fly a Lance and a Bonanza, and in the Lance the pump is supposed to be on as you say below (500 feet and lower was how I was taught). The Bonanza does not require this in the checklist, and it is only used for starting….not sure why that is the case, but am curious if anyone knows.
Â
Steve Farner
Â
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2013 12:01 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
Â
The main concept to understand about the boost pump is that it's there in case the engine-driven pump fails.
Â
The fuel injection system on our engines won't function (the engine won't run) without something in the neighborhood of 15 psi of fuel pressure. Â I might be off a few pounds, but the point is that without some kind of fuel pump, either engine driven or electrically driven, the engine won't run. Â Even the head pressure from a high-wing is insufficient to operate the fuel injection.
Â
What I take away from this is that if I can't tolerate a temporary loss of power then I use the boost pump. Â So I use it on take-off and landing, or any other time I'm busy and/or close to the ground.
Â
To my way of thinking, the boost pump is an important piece of redundant safety equipment, like a second mag or electrical supply.
Â
Starting is a whole other mode of operation, and another topic for discussion, but in flight the pump should be on whenever you wouldn't have time to mess with a restart due to engine pump failure.
Â
Fly safe!
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
Â
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Bruce Johnson <bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com (bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
Good question Leon, I have got 85 hrs and have only used the electric pump for starting, I leave it on during cranking and it seems to start better that way. I recently took a guy up and he said on low wing tanks its better to use it on take off and landings????? On my 210 I only used it for start up as well and it did over fuel the system if used in addition while running. On an Enstrom helicopter with gravity feed tanks they run them all the time. So I guess it will be your preference which way you go.
Â
From: Leeverett <Leeverett(at)msn.com (Leeverett(at)msn.com)>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 10:12 PM
Subject: Fuel pump use
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Leeverett" <Leeverett(at)msn.com (Leeverett(at)msn.com)>
I have finished my 10 except for paint and am ready for first flight. I
finished transition training last weekend with Pierrie Smith. It was a great
experience and I recommend him to anyone looking for a CFI. I noted we
only used the electric fuel pump on engine start and not on takeoff,
landing or fuel tank change. Is this everyone's practice or do other folks
have different ideas. Thank. Leon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=391785#391785
Â
| Quote: | | Â Â =============== |
 - The RV10-List Email Forum -
| Quote: | | such as List Un/Subscription, |
s.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigu> ==================�       - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -[u][/u] "_blank">http://forums.matronics.com0
                     -Matt Dralle, List Admit; http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================1
|
2
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
3
|
4
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
5
 |
6
|
--
Rob Kochman
RV-10 Flying since March 2011
Woodinville, WA
http://kochman.net/N819K
[quote][b]
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel injected Cessna.
W. Curtis
On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:22, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have worked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and landing.
Cessna 210 and Bonanza have Continental injection system that is very sensitive to unmetered pressure coming into the fuel servo. Adding boost pump upsets the mixture calibration. Yes, boost pump off in climb is pilot's discretion for ability to respond if engine falters because mechanical pump failed.
FWIW a 210 was totaled at my airport on New Year's eve because it appears mechanical pump failed at 100 ft. With most any injected engine it takes 5-10 seconds for fire to relight after a fuel delivery interruption. Fortunately they made a open soft field about 40 degrees off centerline and walked away uninjured.
Kelly
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna. YMMV.
*I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common failure with no backup method.
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu (wwc4(at)njit.edu)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu (wwc4(at)njit.edu)>
Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel injected Cessna.
W. Curtis
On Jan 8, 2013, at 15:22, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
>
> You are correct. Every Lycoming powered fuel injected aircraft I have worked on, with Bendix RSA injection called for pump on for takeoff and landing.
> Cessna 210 and Bonanza have Continental injection system that is very sensitive to unmetered pressure coming into the fuel servo. Adding boost pump upsets the mixture calibration. Yes, boost pump off in climb is pilot's discretion for ability to respond if engine falters because mechanical pump failed.
> FWIW a 210 was totaled at my airport on New Year's eve because it appears mechanical pump failed at 100 ft. With most any injected engine it takes 5-10 seconds for fire to relight after a fuel delivery interruption. Fortunately they made a open soft field about 40 degrees off centerline and walked away uninjured.
> Kelly
>
=
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:27 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Kelly,
Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for maximum power but it is usually enough to provide partial power and prevent fuel starvation and give enough time to then turn on the boost pump in the event of a mechanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in the POH below.
www.nerv10.com/manuals/Cessna/C177RG_POH_1975.pdf
The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known failure point in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it replaced with the updated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner ship back in 1998. Once you identify and remediate the few known failure points of the Cardinal RG gear system, it is quite reliable. In 14 years of ownership, I have had very little issues with the gear system and no "incidents."
W. Curtis.
On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna. YMMV.
*I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common failure with no backup method.
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu (wwc4(at)njit.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu (wwc4(at)njit.edu)>
Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel injected Cessna.
W. Curtis |
[b]
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:37 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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|
Yeah, the 1975 gear is much better than the 1971 that I had a failure
on. My recollection from days of reading CFO Digest, none of the main
gear actuator rod ends were truly free of failures, just the originals
with zerks were much worse. A friend has one with the old
turbo-normalizer STC. Watching him work on it and struggle with all the
Cessna "features" I'll stick with the RV-10.
There are times on takeoff that partial power would be a very bad thing,
so I'll use the boost, thank you, high wing or low.
On 1/9/2013 8:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | Kelly,
Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for
maximum power but it is usually enough to provide partial power and
prevent fuel starvation and give enough time to then turn on the boost
pump in the event of a mechanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in
the POH below.
www.nerv10.com/
<http://www.nerv10.com/>*manual*s/*Cessna*/C*177RG*_*POH*_1975.*pdf*
*
*
The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known
failure point in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it
replaced with the updated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner
ship back in 1998. Once you identify and remediate the few known
failure points of the Cardinal RG gear system, it is quite reliable.
In 14 years of ownership, I have had very little issues with the gear
system and no "incidents."
W. Curtis.
On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com
<mailto:apilot2(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
> Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown
> one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings
> is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to
> produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a
> C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna.
> YMMV.
>
> *I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear
> problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common
> failure with no backup method.
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu
> <mailto:wwc4(at)njit.edu>> wrote:
>
>
> <mailto:wwc4(at)njit.edu>>
>
> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG
> for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna
> aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost
> pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the
> difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I
> think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and
> landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered
> aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel
> injected Cessna.
>
> W. Curtis
>
*
*
|
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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davidsoutpost(at)comcast.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:27 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
|
|
I agree with Kelly on this. Why would anyone not want to minimize the risk's at any phase of flight when it is available?
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
From: "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:36:47 PM
Subject: Re: Fuel pump use
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>
Yeah, the 1975 gear is much better than the 1971 that I had a failure
on. My recollection from days of reading CFO Digest, none of the main
gear actuator rod ends were truly free of failures, just the originals
with zerks were much worse. A friend has one with the old
turbo-normalizer STC. Watching him work on it and struggle with all the
Cessna "features" I'll stick with the RV-10.
There are times on takeoff that partial power would be a very bad thing,
so I'll use the boost, thank you, high wing or low.
On 1/9/2013 8:26 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | Kelly,
Yes gravity alone will not provide the full 15 PSI required for
maximum power but it is usually enough to provide partial power and
prevent fuel starvation and give enough time to then turn on the boost
pump in the event of a mechanical fuel pump failure. See page 4-8 in
the POH below.
www.nerv10.com/
<http://www.nerv10.com/>*manual*s/*Cessna*/C*177RG*_*POH*_1975.*pdf*
*
*
The main gear actuator rod end with the zero fitting is a known
failure point in the Cardinal RG gear system which is why I had it
replaced with the updated non-zerk rod end in the first year of owner
ship back in 1998. Once you identify and remediate the few known
failure points of the Cardinal RG gear system, it is quite reliable.
In 14 years of ownership, I have had very little issues with the gear
system and no "incidents."
W. Curtis.
On Jan 9, 2013, at 21:51, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com
<mailto:apilot2(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
> Bill, I don't remember what the C177RG POH said, as I haven't flown
> one for 30 years*. However, I doubt the head pressure from the wings
> is enough to produce the 15 psi minimum that the fuel servo needs to
> produce full power. I'd prefer to have it on for takeoff even in a
> C177 RG or C172 RG or any other Lycoming powered and injected Cessna.
> YMMV.
>
> *I decided one main actuator rod failure in flight was enough gear
> problems in a system design that has that as a moderately common
> failure with no backup method.
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32 PM, William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu
> <mailto:wwc4(at)njit.edu>> wrote:
>
> --> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis <wwc4(at)njit.edu
> <mailto:wwc4(at)njit.edu>>
>
> Well, not quite Kelly. Look at the POH for the Cessna Cardinal RG
> for example. No fuel injected Lycoming powered high wing Cessna
> aircraft including the Cardinal RG have in their checklist, boost
> pump on takeoff and landing. The high wing is what makes the
> difference. Having gravity to help supply fuel to the engine, I
> think makes the difference. Boost pump on during takeoff and
> landing is normal procedure for low wing Lycoming powered
> aircraft but I have yet to see this in a POH for a high wing fuel
> injected Cessna.
>
> W. Curtis
>
*
*
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:41 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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The bottom line is to do what the airframe manufacturer suggest in the POH. As a builder you are the airframe manufacturer.
In addition to what may happen in case of a mechanical pump failure, there could be un-intended consequences of running a pump when it is not stated in the POH. The reason Lycoming leaves it up to the airframe manufacturer is that engine performance is also dependent on the fuel system plumbing. In most Cessna fuel injected high wing, the boost pump is "in line" with the mechanical pump and others it is "In parallel." Running a pump when it is not stated can cause un-intended behaviors such as over rich mixture that may lead to reduced power.
In the case of the RV10, I think the Vans suggested route of running the pump during takeoff and landings should be followed. If you are in a high wing Cessna however, the boost pump should not be run during takeoff and landings.
William
RV10 - 40237
On Jan 9, 2013, at 23:26, davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net (davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net) wrote:
[quote]I agree with Kelly on this. Why would anyone not want to minimize the risk's at any phase of flight when it is available?
David Clifford
RV-10 Builder
Howell, MI
[b]
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deej(at)deej.net
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:04 am Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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On 01/10/2013 12:38 AM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | If you are in a
high wing Cessna however, the boost pump should not be run during
takeoff and landings.
|
As they say, "that depends"... 
I have a high wing Glastar with a carburated O320. It was built
without any pump at all (mechanical or electric), and has been flying
fine for 13 years. I'm converting the carb to a Rotec TBI, and Rotec
recommends the use of an electric boost pump for takeoff, even on a high
wing plane.
The reason is that at very high angles of attack (say like a short
field takeoff), the difference in height between the engine and the wing
decreases, which means that the fuel pressure given by gravity lessens.
At really high angles of attack it is possible for the fuel pressure to
get too low without the use of a boost pump.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:58 am Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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| Quote: |
As they say, "that depends"...
|
Actually, no it does not. This is comparing apples and oranges and underscores why I said to defer to the instructions in the POH. Clearly Rotec/Glastar has recognized the deficiencies of the TBI system at high AOA and has thus adjusted the procedures in the POH accordingly. This same procedure however would not apply in a high wing Cessna.
First, a Glastar is not a Cessna; second, a Glastar does not have a mechanical fuel injection system; third, I'm sure the fuel plumbing on the Glastar is nowhere near the same as on a high wing Cessna.
W.
177RG - N24DM
RV10 - 40237
On Jan 10, 2013, at 14:03, Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 01/10/2013 12:38 AM, William Curtis wrote:
> If you are in a
> high wing Cessna however, the boost pump should not be run during
> takeoff and landings.
I have a high wing Glastar with a carburated O320. It was built
without any pump at all (mechanical or electric), and has been flying
fine for 13 years. I'm converting the carb to a Rotec TBI, and Rotec
recommends the use of an electric boost pump for takeoff, even on a high
wing plane.
The reason is that at very high angles of attack (say like a short
field takeoff), the difference in height between the engine and the wing
decreases, which means that the fuel pressure given by gravity lessens.
At really high angles of attack it is possible for the fuel pressure to
get too low without the use of a boost pump.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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deej(at)deej.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:37 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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On 01/10/2013 02:57 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | >
> As they say, "that depends"...
>
Actually, no it does not.
|
Actually, it does. We are on an experimental aircraft forum talking
about experimental airplanes, and your post started with "The bottom
line is to do what the airframe manufacturer suggest in the POH. As a
builder you are the airframe manufacturer."
The above combined with your comment about the high wing Cessna could
easily be construed as saying "if you are in a high wing experimental
aircraft, there is no need for a boost pump" simply because you can
write it that way in the POH.
I was offering an example of a high wing experimental aircraft where
the maker of one of the fuel system components (the Throttle Body
Injector) recommends the use of a boost pump (not to be confused with
the manufacturer of the experimental airframe kit (Stoddard Hamilton in
the case of the Glastar) or the builder of the aircraft).
Since Rotec recommends the boost pump for all aircraft, if the Cessna
were put into the experimental category, and a Rotec TBI were installed
in place of the carburator, the same recommendation for the boost pump
would apply.
I'm not trying to argue with you. I am merely saying that "it depends"
on many things, such as the parts used in the fuel system and the
recommendations from those manufacturers, in addition to recommendations
from the kit company (Vans, Stoddard Hamilton, etc).
I agree with you that on a factory produced certified aircraft, do what
it says in the POH. On our airplanes, it isn't quite so clear due to
the wide variety of options available to us.
Yes, a Glastar is not a Cessna, however, it CAN have a mechanical fuel
injection system, or a carb, or a TBI, or electronic fuel injection,
etc, and the fuel system can be plumbed to be very similar to the Cessna
should that be desired.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Dj,
Yup, I think we agree on the same thing, we just have different way of saying it.
W.
On Jan 10, 2013, at 15:36, Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
On 01/10/2013 02:57 PM, William Curtis wrote:
>>
>> As they say, "that depends"...
>>
>
> Actually, no it does not.
Actually, it does. We are on an experimental aircraft forum talking
about experimental airplanes, and your post started with "The bottom
line is to do what the airframe manufacturer suggest in the POH. As a
builder you are the airframe manufacturer."
The above combined with your comment about the high wing Cessna could
easily be construed as saying "if you are in a high wing experimental
aircraft, there is no need for a boost pump" simply because you can
write it that way in the POH.
I was offering an example of a high wing experimental aircraft where
the maker of one of the fuel system components (the Throttle Body
Injector) recommends the use of a boost pump (not to be confused with
the manufacturer of the experimental airframe kit (Stoddard Hamilton in
the case of the Glastar) or the builder of the aircraft).
Since Rotec recommends the boost pump for all aircraft, if the Cessna
were put into the experimental category, and a Rotec TBI were installed
in place of the carburator, the same recommendation for the boost pump
would apply.
I'm not trying to argue with you. I am merely saying that "it depends"
on many things, such as the parts used in the fuel system and the
recommendations from those manufacturers, in addition to recommendations
from the kit company (Vans, Stoddard Hamilton, etc).
I agree with you that on a factory produced certified aircraft, do what
it says in the POH. On our airplanes, it isn't quite so clear due to
the wide variety of options available to us.
Yes, a Glastar is not a Cessna, however, it CAN have a mechanical fuel
injection system, or a carb, or a TBI, or electronic fuel injection,
etc, and the fuel system can be plumbed to be very similar to the Cessna
should that be desired.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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deej(at)deej.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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On 01/10/2013 03:49 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | Yup, I think we agree on the same thing, we just have different way of saying it.
|
I think so too, after going back and re-reading the last several posts.
Must be time for my nap...
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Do the math...... Fluid dynamics are know and predictable...
For every one foot in head height, you make .43 PSI.. A high wing plane's wing is, at best 3 feet higher then the carb in level flight. If 1.29 PSI is enough to keep your engine running then...... Have at it.. Get that same plane in a nose high attitude during take off/steep climb and the head distance gets reduced to 2 feet , then I have a VERY hard time believing .86PSI is capable to keep a engine running properly with NO fuel pump in the system......YMMV
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
--------
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deej(at)deej.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:21 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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On 01/10/2013 03:59 PM, n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote:
| Quote: | I have a VERY hard
time believing .86PSI is capable to keep a engine running properly with
NO fuel pump in the system......YMMV
|
My Glastar (Lyc O-320-E2D) has flown for 13 years with no fuel pump at
all, just gravity feed to a carb. I believe the min fuel pressure for a
carb is 0.5 PSI, but I can't find the reference right now.
FWIW, the Rotec TBI also has the 0.5 PSI min, and for most operations
in a high wing airplane the boost pump is not required (gravity is
enough). Rotec had a few reports of the engine burbling a little bit
when very high angles of attack occurred in very aggressive takeoff
maneuvers, which is why they now recommend the boost pump.
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/TBI/TBI.htm
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Ben,
OK. Just so I'm clear on what you are saying; Are you saying that after "doing the math" when flying a fuel injected high wing Cessna, you would ignore the procedures in the POH and run the boost pump during takeoff and landings?
If my understanding is correct then as you say "have at it." I don't think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" with fuel fed only with gravity but at least you will not have a complete engine stoppage due to fuel starvation. The difference in time to react that you have with partial power is considerable greater than the time to react with a complete power loss. In the case of Cessna, they obviously thought this outweighed the negatives of running the pump during that same time.
W.
On Jan 10, 2013, at 20:59, "n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)" <n801bh(at)netzero.com (n801bh(at)netzero.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Do the math...... Fluid dynamics are know and predictable...
For every one foot in head height, you make .43 PSI.. A high wing plane's wing is, at best 3 feet higher then the carb in level flight. If 1.29 PSI is enough to keep your engine running then...... Have at it... Get that same plane in a nose high attitude during take off/steep climb and the head distance gets reduced to 2 feet , then I have a VERY hard time believing .86PSI is capable to keep a engine running properly with NO fuel pump in the system......YMMV
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
[b]
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deej(at)deej.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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On 01/10/2013 04:30 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | I don't
think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" with
fuel fed only with gravity
|
This is exactly what I am saying - my Glastar has never had any kind of
fuel pump installed, mechanical or electrical, and it runs just fine
with gravity fed only to a carb.
I've been told there are older certified aircraft that are setup the
same way, but I don't have any specific references to share.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/
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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:51 pm Post subject: Fuel pump use |
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Agreed, which is why I prefaced most by specifying "fuel injected high wing." The high wing Cessna 150/152 that I trained in also did not have boost pumps. Most high wing carbureted engine aircraft can and do run perfectly fine full power with only gravity feeding the fuel.
I know we are "out in the weeds" on this thread now but I'll restate my original statement with clarification and expansion-- I hope:
-In the case of the RV10 with a Lycoming fuel injected engine, follow the Vans suggested recommendation of running the boost pump during takeoff and landings. This is normal procedure for most low wing aircraft.
-For high wing fuel injected Cessnas, all POH that I have seen DO NOT indicate running the fuel pump during takeoff and landings.
-Many, if not all, high wing carbureted aircraft, including the Cessna 150/152/172, DO NOT specify in the POH running the boost pump during takeoff and landings.
W.
On Jan 10, 2013, at 16:51, Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net (deej(at)deej.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej(at)deej.net (deej(at)deej.net)>
On 01/10/2013 04:30 PM, William Curtis wrote:
| Quote: | I don't
think anyone has said or would think an engine would "run properly" with
fuel fed only with gravity
|
This is exactly what I am saying - my Glastar has never had any kind of
fuel pump installed, mechanical or electrical, and it runs just fine
with gravity fed only to a carb.
I've been told there are older certified aircraft that are setup the
same way, but I don't have any specific references to share.
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV - VP EAA Chapter 87
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ - http://deej.net/sportsman/
Glastar Flyer N866RH - http://deej.net/glastar/<========================== - The RV10-List Emailnics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List</=====================================================================================================; - List Contribution Web Site -[b]http://www.m==================================================
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel pump use |
|
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You guys are mixing apples and oranges.
I know of no injected engine that will run properly with just gravity feed.
There are lots of high wing carb engines that do run on just gravity feed.
And there are some high wing, carb engines, that have an aux pump for very nose high situations (172RG, for example).
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