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Trailing Edges

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zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Forgive me if this is in the archives, but I have a question about the Aileron and Flap trailing edges.



  After mounting the flaps and ailerons onto the wing, the trailing edges do not match up.  I was kind of hoping they would since the wings and flaps were not built in jigs per say.  But they didn't.



  To make everything line up, I need to pull the 2 flap attach bolts (wing root bolt left on).  The flap actually needs to be raised a little (wing is vertical in the jig)  to make the flap parallel to the top skin rivets.  Then, the bolt holes don't line up.  Bummer!



  Has anbody else seen this and if you did, what did you do about it?



Zack

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: Trailing Edges

Zack,



At first I thought the same thing, make sure the flap leading edge is up against the rear spar, that is it's neutral position. If your bottom skins are not on wait until they are before pressing the bushings into the flap brackets because the skins can't slip over the hinges. The bushings made the difference for me. I found as all the hardware was being installed everything seemed to line up fine after it was fully installed, torqued etc. 



Rick S.

40185

Fuse/Finish

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

jaybrinkmeyer(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Trailing Edges

 	  Quote: 	
		  From your description I have the same flap/aileron trailing edge aligment issue

on one wing (less than 1/4" as I recall). A couple of folks have looked at it
	


(including the local EAA tech advisor) and no one has pointed at anything that

might be amiss. 



One of the guys on the Vans builder line said that I might have warped or

twisted the flap slightly and that could attribute to the funky edge. I voted

to not build a show plan and just keep on going as nothing is falling off.



Hope this makes sense.



Jay

Slow build everything... Fuse

Time: 	02:51:46 PM PST US

Subject: 	Trailing Edges

From: 	"zackrv8" <zackrv8(at)verizon.net>

      


Forgive me if this is in the archives, but I have a question about the Aileron

and Flap trailing edges.

      

After mounting the flaps and ailerons onto the wing, the trailing edges do not

match up.  I was kind of hoping they would since the wings and flaps were not

built in jigs per say.  But they didn't.

      

To make everything line up, I need to pull the 2 flap attach bolts (wing root

bolt left on).  The flap actually needs to be raised a little (wing is vertical

in the jig)  to make the flap parallel to the top skin rivets.  Then, the bolt

holes don't line up.  Bummer!

      

Has anbody else seen this and if you did, what did you do about it?

      

Zack

__________________________________________________

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Rick and Jay,



  Thanks for the replies.    I just found out that I indeed have a "twisted" flap.  You have to take great care when builing those long pieces.  Inducing a twist or warp is very, very easy.



  My flaps are so bad (in my opinion) that I need to redo them.   I will try drilling out the trailing edge rivets and use a heat gun to break the 2216 epoxy.  If I booger it up,  Vans will get more of my money!



  For the rest of you building the flaps, take great care to follow the instructions and make sure you have a flat table and weigh the flap down like the plans call for.



Zack

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: Trailing Edges

Hi Zack,



I talked to Scott at Van's about control surface twist. He said for the

ailerons 3/16" was the QC limit for the QB ailerons that come into the

factory. This is measured by laying the aileron on a flat surface,

finding the corner that is not sitting flat on the table and measuring

the distant between that spot on the skin and the table top.



I also asked if the 3/16" rule applied to the flaps and was told if one

can get 3/16" or less great. But it is a very long surface and not as

critical as the aileron (though still important) because the flap is

fixed in position where the aileron "floats" in the air stream. So

twists in an aileron tend to change the air flow over them and push them

out of alignment in flight.   Hope this is of help.



Vern Smith (#40324 flaps done going back to the fuel tanks!)   



--

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Vern,



  Roger everything you said.  I agree.  I mounted the right flap on the wing the other day and it was much, much straighter than the left flap.  Definetly had a twist in the right flap.  Mine was more pronounced than 3/16 inch.



  Couple things bother me though...My right flap had the bad twist in it and it nested in between the top and bottom wing skin very nicely (this is the flap with the bad twist in it).  However, the left flap which is almost straight, rubs pretty good between the top and bottom wing skins in the "flap up" position.  Why?



  Also, I noticed near the "wing root" area of the flap (both flaps actually), that the flap protrudes down below the bottom wing skin yet is flush with the bottom wing skin near the "outboard" area of the flap  Again...why?



Zack

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: Trailing Edges

I'm not sure what exactly you are saying in the last paragraph, but as far

as the flap hitting the fuse when it is in the up position, that is normal

from my experience.  I guess it is good to have that as close as possible,

so they make it tight tolerance in design which requires some trimming to

get it to fit just right.  We has to do some substantial trimming (filing

mainly) on all 4 flaps that I have fit to get them to fit nicely without

scraping/rubbing the fuse.  As far as the twist, I have not noticed

anything, but we pretty much followed the pattern of weighing it down on the

table to hold it flat while riveting the trailing edge...I think.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Jesse,



  OK.  Pictures are worth a thousand words.  Below are several pics I took of the flap wing gap.



  The first pic was taken between the two inboard flap hinges.  Notice how the flap sticks out below the bottom skin.



  The second picture is a closer look.  Pretty ugly.



  The third pic was taken right next to the middle flap hinge bracket.  Perfect!  



  I write this in hopes that someone else will not go through the same thing I did.  



  I am not a first time builder.  I have built a slow build RV8 and have a working knowledge of how Vans kits go together.  However, this is stumping me at the moment.



  So,  because of these irregularities, I get to build new flaps.  What I would like to know is if anyone else out there seeing the same thing I am?

  

  Btw, this is a slow build RV10 kit.



Zack

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_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Thanks for the explanation.  I haven't seen this on any of ours, or at least

haven't noticed it (and that shouldn't be hard to notice).  It almost seems

as if the leading edge skin didn’t get pulled up tightly against the ribs.

I can't imagine how that could happen unless you got some bad hinge brackets

or the leading edge skin is bad.  Even having a warped flap shouldn't do

that, singe the bracket is forward of the spar.  Could it possibly be

something with the wing or wing brackets (I shudder to even mention this)?



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

W: 352-465-4545

C: 352-427-0285



--

Vern(at)teclabsinc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Hi Zack,



Don't know if I can be of much help. I jumped over the fuel tanks and

skinning the bottom of the wings so I'm not able to hang my flaps at

this time.



After looking at your pictures here are some things to think about. Is

the distance between the hinge pivot and the bottom skin the same for

each hinge (check both the wing half of each hinge and the flap half)?

Is the nose skin of the flap more reflexed (sagging) at the inboard end

of the flap? If you have access to a digital protractor clamp the flap

in place so it won't move and take angle readings off of the main skin

(from front to back) along the length of the flap and wing.



Here is the thinking behind it. If either half of the hinge points

progressively run down hill in reference to the skin the whole flap

would droop at one end. Don't know how this could happen with the

pre-punched kits.



If the protractor reading progressively gets worse down the length of

the flap then the problem may be the twist in the flap is centered

around the spar flap (this would cause the leading edge to droop and the

trailing edge to rise or via versa. Well that's my $.02.



Vern (#40324)



--

toaster73(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Zack

I checked my flaps, I have good alignment of the trailing edges of the flaps 

and ailerons. I built one aileron all dorked up and twisted (in a hurry). SO 

I built another one. But what I did notice on my flaps using your ruler 

technique is that between the nose ribs of the flap along the leading edge 

of  the flap the nose seems to bulge out a bit and I get that nose area to 

be a little lower than the bottom skin.  If I move the flap from neutral 

(neutral being the slightly reflexed position of the nose resting against 

the rear spar at the ing root) the bottom nose of the flap moves in 

alignment with the bottom skin in those bulging areas. It seems too that a 

slight relocation of the hinge centers could affect things too, that could 

be done by machining off center bushings but this would be a pain.  I think 

massaging the bulging area carefully could help too and also not setting the 

flap at the full reflexed postion or a combination. I am going to stick with 

mine. Since you have trailing edge problems you must have twist too.

-Chris Lucas

#40072 (fuselage)



---

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Guys,



  Again, I agree with everything you guys are saying that are possible reasons for the twist in the flaps and the bulging of the nose skin of the flaps below the bottom wing skin.



  Because of the geometry of the way the flaps move when extended, they move away from the wing.  I noticed on one flap/aileron alignment that the trailing edges match up perfectly when the flap is resting its nose against the back spar.  As Chris said, the flaps are reflexed in their neutral position.  However, the bottom of the flap bulges below the skin.  I can move the flap just a hair and the bulging flap problem goes away (because of the geometry).  But then the trailing edges don't line up.



  So, maybe the flap nose skin is not up tight against the nose ribs.  Maybe the spar is so twisted that it forces the nose ribs downward.  Either way, I can't accept it.  



  So, I will build 2 new flaps.  This time, I will deviate from the plans just a little.  I will pin the skeleton on the wing first and check alignment.  I may then clamp the aileron and flap trailing edges together in alignment  with some very long straight edges.  Then, I may even rivet the sucker together right on the wing.  That way, it should turn out fairly well in alignment.  The wing should make a perfect jig for holding the skeleton in place while riveting.



  What do you guys think?  Think it can be done that way?



  Tim,  I am very curious if you have any of these flap problems that I have been talking about.



zack

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

As far as riveting the trailing edge while mounted on the wing, I don't know if I recommend this.  Do you use Proseal on the trailing edge?  This is how we do them...  

We rivet the thing together as per the plans, then we take 1.5" or so aluminum angle with holes the same as the trailing edge, proseal the trailing edge and then cleco through the trailing edge and two of these angles, one on top and one on bottom and let the proseal dry overnight while the flap/aileron/rudder/elevator is laying flat on a flat surface (adding weight is a good idea also).  The next day we take off the angles, pass a bit through the holes to clean out the proseal, scrub all proseal off the skins, then back rivet the whole thing, alternating 7-10 holes (easiest by marking "1 through whatever" the whole way down) on the steel table surface (can also be done on steel angle hanging off the edge of the table).  This ends up in a perfect fit every time and a very straight trailing edge.  Once the proseal sets up, you can check for good alignment prior to riveting.  We have had one time where something moved and the alignment was lost, so we opened up the trailing edge, cleaned off all the proseal, and started over.  

This may be the way most people do it, and it may be the way the plans say to do it, but I haven't read the plans on this part.  I just have seen them done this way so that's how we do them.  One set of 2 pieces of angle the length of the flap can be used for all 7 parts that require leading edge material.  

Jesse Saint  

I-TEC, Inc.  

jesse(at)itecusa.org  

www.itecusa.org  

W: 352-465-4545  

C: 352-427-0285  

--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Zack,



I hope I'm the Tim you meant....so I'll throw in my 1 cent.  (I'd throw

in 2, but I don't know if I have that much left.  )



I'm just confused about what I'm seeing back and forth in the emails.

I saw your 3 pictures and I can't even begin to imagine how it came out

that way.  I'm not trying to be insulting, so please don't take it that

way, but man, somethings wrong there. (I know you know that.  )

I only wish I could come up with a good reason.



I would durn well hope that the problem isn't with how the flap attach

brackets are, that are riveted to the wing....if they're bad, I'd hope

that they're bad on the FLAP side, not the wing side.  You may want

to use a ruler and square and whatever you can, and verify that the 

approximate orientations and distances to the holes on the flap brackets

on the WING side are all symmetrical with eachother.  I mean, measure

from the skin edge or rivet line, or center of rear spar, to the holes

in the flap brackets, and make sure they're all identical.  I'm

almost 100% sure they should be.  If they are, then you can breathe

and sleep better knowing that the wing is OK, and the flaps are all

that's wrong.



When you get them right, it will be just like you imagine....they'll

all look like your 3rd picture.  When the flaps are all the way up to

the rear spar, they're actually reflexed about 3 degrees I think.

I *think* if I remember right, that's the orientation I had them when

I lined up the trailing edges with my ailerons.



Now, I built that section 100% following the plans.  I don't know if

you had bad parts, or slipped up somewhere, but if the parts were good,

I don't think it would be that easy to make that nasty looking of

a mistake.  Make sure when you get the new parts that they're

also all symmetrical.



One other thing about building them straight.... I see you guys talking

about building some crooked ailerons and flaps.  I just don't know

how they could come out that bad....and again, I'm not trying to

be insulting, so don't read any "tone" into that.  All I can guess is

that 2 things are causing the problems:



1) Make sure you're using a nice, solid, flat 8' table to build these

on.  My tables had doubled 2x4's and a nice solid rim around the top

with lots of under bracing and a 3/4" particle board top.  Very nice

heavy tables.



2) I really think this is where people shouldn't be trying to get by

without the proseal.  I set mine up, used that angle steel to cleco mine

to, as a backing plate, and used proseal to keep the edges together,

letting them cure for a night or two before I riveted.  I can't say

that this is why they came out great, but I think that angle steel

idea (stolen from I think Mike Howe) was a real key, along with the

proseal.



Anyway, mine are super straight, no bows, no twists, and retracted the

bottoms are slightly reflexed, and the tops make a nice smooth line

all the way down the wing to the trailing edge.  The forward nose is

straight, and runs into the rear spar evenly.  Being a first time

builder, I guess I could call it beginners luck.  But, you never

know if the parts were maybe bad in one batch or something.  Stranger

things have happened.  If you figure out the cause, post it.  It will

be interesting.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



zackrv8 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Guys,

 

 Again, I agree with everything you guys are saying that are possible

 reasons for the twist in the flaps and the bulging of the nose skin

 of the flaps below the bottom wing skin.

 

 Because of the geometry of the way the flaps move when extended, they

 move away from the wing.  I noticed on one flap/aileron alignment

 that the trailing edges match up perfectly when the flap is resting

 its nose against the back spar.  As Chris said, the flaps are

 reflexed in their neutral position.  However, the bottom of the flap

 bulges below the skin.  I can move the flap just a hair and the

 bulging flap problem goes away (because of the geometry).  But then

 the trailing edges don't line up.

 

 So, maybe the flap nose skin is not up tight against the nose ribs.

 Maybe the spar is so twisted that it forces the nose ribs downward.

 Either way, I can't accept it.

 

 So, I will build 2 new flaps.  This time, I will deviate from the

 plans just a little.  I will pin the skeleton on the wing first and

 check alignment.  I may then clamp the aileron and flap trailing

 edges together in alignment  with some very long straight edges.

 Then, I may even rivet the sucker together right on the wing.  That

 way, it should turn out fairly well in alignment.  The wing should

 make a perfect jig for holding the skeleton in place while riveting.

 

 What do you guys think?  Think it can be done that way?

 

 Tim,  I am very curious if you have any of these flap problems that I

 have been talking about.

 

 zack

 

 -------- RV8 #80125 RV10 # 40512

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

PS to my previous post:



This page shows a picture of the flaps all laid up:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/wing/20041214/RV200412120032.html



This one is a link to my flaps section:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/wing/20041214/index.html



This one talks about the angle iron while doing the rudder.

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/rudder/20040325/index.html



Thinking back, I can't remember if I used it while prosealing the

flaps, or just used it during riveting.  Anyway, from the flap

photo above, you can see that with a very sturdy and straight bench,

and overhanging the trailing edge, they'd still be straight while

curing proseal.  Additionally, and NOT shown in the photo, while

I let the proseal cure, I piled on lots of weight to the flaps...

spare steel bars, boxes of clecos, and stuff like that....anything

I could find that would help distribute the weight and keep all

the whole length of both flaps tightly laying against the workbench.



Commenting on Jesse's post, he did a great job explaining....it's

really what I think is the "right" way to do this task, and probably

why he/we didn't have a problem with twists.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying



Jesse Saint wrote:

[quote] As far as riveting the trailing edge while mounted on the wing, I don't 

 know if I recommend this.  Do you use Proseal on the trailing edge?  

 This is how we do them...

 

 We rivet the thing together as per the plans, then we take 1.5" or so 

 aluminum angle with holes the same as the trailing edge, proseal the 

 trailing edge and then cleco through the trailing edge and two of these 

 angles, one on top and one on bottom and let the proseal dry overnight 

 while the flap/aileron/rudder/elevator is laying flat on a flat surface 

 (adding weight is a good idea also).  The next day we take off the 

 angles, pass a bit through the holes to clean out the proseal, scrub all 

 proseal off the skins, then back rivet the whole thing, alternating 7-10 

 holes (easiest by marking "1 through whatever" the whole way down) on 

 the steel table surface (can also be done on steel angle hanging off the 

 edge of the table).  This ends up in a perfect fit every time and a very 

 straight trailing edge.  Once the proseal sets up, you can check for 

 good alignment prior to riveting.  We have had one time where something 

 moved and the alignment was lost, so we opened up the trailing edge, 

 cleaned off all the proseal, and started over.

 

 This may be the way most people do it, and it may be the way the plans 

 say to do it, but I haven't read the plans on this part.  I just have 

 seen them done this way so that's how we do them.  One set of 2 pieces 

 of angle the length of the flap can be used for all 7 parts that require 

 leading edge material.

 

 Jesse Saint

 I-TEC, Inc.

 jesse(at)itecusa.org

 www.itecusa.org

 W: 352-465-4545

 C: 352-427-0285

 --

zackrv8

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Tim and all the others that have been so helpful....



   The first thing I checked when things were not lining up was the hinge brackets on the wings.  The are dead nuts on.  Thank you Tim....I will sleep well tonight!



  Anyway, I'll report back to you guys as soon as I get the new parts.   Also thanks to the many suggestions out there for building straight control surfaces.  You guys are the best for sharing!



Zack

_________________
RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Trailing Edges

Well, I didn't build the flap on the wing but I did make some brackets to

hold the flap hinges in alignment while I built it. In the picture, the

clamp at the nose is to pull the trailing edge tight and remove the waves.

Albert Gardner

Yuma, AZ



--

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_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: Trailing Edges

After reading all the post that came after this email, I can't help but 

wonder whether the flap brackets could be somehow accidentally mixed up so 

that rt became left and left became right.  I mean, backwards.  Because of 

the computer designing and hole seperation spacing, some of the kit parts 

fit together even when they are backwards.



I am no where near this part of the project so forgive me if this is so 

stupid of a posible answer to the problem.



JG.



Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "zackrv8" <zackrv8(at)verizon.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Trailing Edges

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:23:00 -0700






Guys,



   Again, I agree with everything you guys are saying that are possible 

reasons for the twist in the flaps and the bulging of the nose skin of the 

flaps below the bottom wing skin.



   Because of the geometry of the way the flaps move when extended, they 

move away from the wing.  I noticed on one flap/aileron alignment that the 

trailing edges match up perfectly when the flap is resting its nose against 

the back spar.  As Chris said, the flaps are reflexed in their neutral 

position.  However, the bottom of the flap bulges below the skin.  I can 

move the flap just a hair and the bulging flap problem goes away (because 

of the geometry).  But then the trailing edges don't line up.



   So, maybe the flap nose skin is not up tight against the nose ribs.  

Maybe the spar is so twisted that it forces the nose ribs downward.  Either 

way, I can't accept it.



   So, I will build 2 new flaps.  This time, I will deviate from the plans 

just a little.  I will pin the skeleton on the wing first and check 

alignment.  I may then clamp the aileron and flap trailing edges together 

in alignment  with some very long straight edges.  Then, I may even rivet 

the sucker together right on the wing.  That way, it should turn out fairly 

well in alignment.  The wing should make a perfect jig for holding the 

skeleton in place while riveting.



   What do you guys think?  Think it can be done that way?



   Tim,  I am very curious if you have any of these flap problems that I 

have been talking about.



zack



--------

RV8 #80125

RV10 # 40512





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