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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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 Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:19 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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I agree I'll have my hands full. Â Geez, I could barely keep up with trimming the airplane during an approach til I installed autotrim.
I've already decided that just about any little glitch is pretty serious, in which case I'm asking for as much help as I can get. Â Maybe a delay vector to sort things out or maybe the E word...it's even on the checklist as a reminder that it's an option.
Again, aviate, navigate, communicate.
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Takes you back to basic failure analysis and goals. What are potential single points of failure, besides CFI covering display or turning it off.
One example...two full size EFIS/MFD for flight instrumentation with dual adahars. Yes, software bug is prime suspect, although if they aren't set to display the same items, unlikely to glitch at same place. Alternator is backed by ships battery. Ship's power backed by independent backup battery for each screen. GNS-430W/GTN650 or better, independent of EFIS giving ground track and ground speed.
Compared to original turn and bank, inclinometer, airspeed, altimeter and low freq range receiver. We have come a long ways in 75 years.
The one thing I learned from a lot of partial panel time was that keeping the dirty side down with a basic six pack keeps your brain so busy scanning and processing your basic attitude while giving you severe case of the "leans" that you have less than 1% left for figuring navigation and pushing buttons, so the simpler system you have, that takes minimal brain power to interpret/extract info, the better. That is why I suggest that if you are in radar coverage you off load all navigation responsibility to a controller. I seriously question the ability to be messing with a cell phone while trying to maintain straight and level in clouds at night with no gyros.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Jim Combs <jiminlexky(at)gmail.com (jiminlexky(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Worse case you have altitude information displayed on the transponder (327) in the right hand side of the display. (You can set it up to show altitude). I also have a free app on my cell phone (GPS STATUS) that shows altitude heading and speed as a fully isolated powered backup.Â
Jim CÂ
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jkreidler
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist |
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When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
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Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist |
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Jason, I think that is why many are recommending 3 sources of information. For me, the Trio autopilot will display a symbolic turn coordinator. So if main and backup efis don't agree there is a tie breaker. Also don't forget that old fashioned wet compass. If your efis shows wings level but that compass is moving chances are good that you are not wings level. GPS based moving map will also show if the wings aren't level.
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist |
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Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could sometimes practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior to an ASR approach.
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:42 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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I believe most EFIS panels will tell you exactly what fails ...... when
the compass/ahars fails it's usually no send data, not erroneous data,
although that may happen in some instances. Degrading instruments (such
as with vacuum failure or gyro failure) are a thing of the past.
Electronics, once passed the infant failure mode are pretty reliable,
but not bullet proof.
On my systems (MGL Odysseys) when items fail I get "X"s or FAIL messages
or alarms when data goes out of limits. It all depends on the system
and how it's programmed.
Linn
On 3/31/2013 5:09 PM, jkreidler wrote:
| Quote: |
When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Does the software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? When we decided to go with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail. I am really not sure which way I would go today. I just wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go. As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:19 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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If you really want a spinning gyro, a turn and bank will give you a more correct indication of whether you are turning or not than a turn coordinator will. The TC responds to bank or turn, and can be confused for pitch that it doesn't have.
On the other hand, it is pretty hard to beat either a Dynon D1 EFIS, or I think it is the D6 that is similar cost but adds static system connection for real airspeed/altitude instead of GPS derived ground speed and altitude. Also avoids needing to switch mental gears from EFIS to round dial.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
I don't have a spinning mass gyro. If I loose all attitude reference it's up to the autopilot's separate gyros and whatever info I can cobble together. If I built it again, or if I do a remodel, I'd add one. My thinking has changed over the years to want to now include at least a TC. But a decent electric attitude indicator is pretty dang expensive. A TC is a lot less and probably more reliable for a given dollar amount.
That's a whole different thread though, I was hoping for (and getting) some feedback on the structure of the checklist.
Thanks!
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 5:37 AM, James McGrew <jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu (jsmcgrew(at)alum.mit.edu)> wrote:
| Quote: | Dave,
I think it is a great idea to work through items of consideration for various failures. I developed several pages of emergency procedures for my POH.
From an electrical systems point of view, I think it is a good idea to lay out what you can do to try to get the EFIS back (or solve other problems). However, from an aircraft control point of view, with a failure in IMC I doubt you will have time to reference a checklist. I'm not to saying this is a bad exercise, nor am I saying that you shouldn't put these checklists in your POH - maybe I'm merely saying, these might be the kind of checklists that you know by heart.
Maybe I missed something, but I think your current checklist version shows that with a black screen, complete failure you no longer have a reference for pitch or wings level. This would be a very bad situation. In my -10 I had 2 separate EFIS plus round-dial airspeed, altitude, VSI, and a turn-and-bank coordinator. If I lost 1 EFIS, I used the other one. If I lost both, I could keep myself right using my 'partial panel' gauges (3 of which work on Pitot-Static alone, the turn and bank was on my emergency electrical bus). Based on the way I designed my system, a lot of things would have to fail to lose all of those.
-Jim
N312JE: Built, Flown and Sold 
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Some time ago Avweb had an article about EFIS failure including some suggestions about what to do.
I've meant ever since to develop a page for my checklist just in case. Using the basic ideas from Avweb I formatted it like my other checklists and added what I thought was appropriate.
So...with the understanding that I don't have a lot of IMC experience, please let me know if this seems appropriate, or if there are obvious errors. I know it's kind of a longshot to have a complete failure IMC with a happy ending. Still, ya gotta try.
For example, I put in Airspeed: VA because it seemed like a good idea. I don't know if there's an accepted practice here. Just seemed prudent.
For reference, I have an AFS EFIS, D10A backup, and 696 for GPS2. My only mechanical instruments are airspeed and vertical card compass. I have aux standby batteries powering EFIS 1&2, GPS 1&2, COM1, autopilot, and trim.
Dave Saylor
[url=tel:831-750-0284]831-750-0284[/url] CL
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:32 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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They still show in my approach plate books. Policy varies by command
whether you can get a practice or not. I know Luke AFB does not allow,
not sure about Davis Monthan or Yuma MCAS. If you are skilled enough or
desperate enough, they can talk you all the way to touch down, but it
will take the E word to get them to continue guidance below minimums
that are normally 200 & one half.
On 3/31/2013 2:34 PM, Bob Turner wrote:
| Quote: |
Q: Does the Air Force still use PAR approaches? Years ago we civilians could sometimes practice them, as long as we did not actually touch down. If you were to find yourself in a bad situation in bad weather the PAR is vastly superior to an ASR approach.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397457#397457
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Kelly McMullen
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dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. Â The AHRS blew something inside and it literally smoked. Â It put a big red X on the screen. Â I flew it home, 12 miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Â Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise normal. Â No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false indication. Â If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown screen. Â But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM, jkreidler <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "jkreidler" <jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)>
When using a backup EFIS how do you know which one is failing? Â Does the software of the EFIS identify that it is failing? Â When we decided to go with mechanical backups of the altimeter, compass, ADI, and airspeed it was so we could go back to the old fashioned way of diagnosing which system was failing. Â Of course back then none of us had experience glass cockpits and how they fail. Â I am really not sure which way I would go today. Â I just wonder when in the soup if I had primary and backup EFISs' not agreeing which direction I would go. Â As someone just said - it's what you don't know....
--------
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=397452#397452
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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You could install just an inclinometer for a few bucks that would at least tell you whether you were coordinated, whether in bank or not. Odds are that in unintended bank you might also be uncoordinated.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I've seen my AFS fail, on the ground. The AHRS blew something inside and it literally smoked. It put a big red X on the screen. I flew it home, 12 miles, VMC, and the X remained the whole time. Very obvious.
I've also seen my D10A fail, indicating about a 10* bank but otherwise normal. No outward signs telling me it failed, just a clearly false indication. If it isn't spooled up it sometimes reverts to a grey-on-grey screen to indicate that all is not well, instead of the normal blue/brown screen. But it didn't do that when it indicated the false bank.
So, no real answer to that question--best case, some do and some don't.
|
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:39 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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I don't think so.
http://utubeclassic.com/watch.php?v=j4IE9DMpj0U
I am having a difficult time sourcing the company page or the original video. Above is a 3rd party video.
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother. I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)>
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:40 pm Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/md302-sam
There is a button to "add to cart" . I bet you could schedule it for Saturday delivery. 
Robin
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother. I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)>
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
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rj_todd(at)yahoo.co.uk
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| Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:35 am Post subject: EFIS failure checklist |
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Hi Robin,
The standby EFIS you are referring to is the Mid-Continent MD 302, $9475 at Spruce. The unit Dave is quoting is the L3 Trilogy which is approx $13k if I remember correctly. A third alternative would be the Aspen standby unit announced at the end of last year.
Best wishes,
Rodger
--- On Tue, 2/4/13, Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com>
Subject: Re: EFIS failure checklist
To: "<rv10-list(at)matronics.com>" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, 2 April, 2013, 6:36
I don't think so.
http://utubeclassic.com/watch.php?v=j4IE9DMpj0U
I am having a difficult time sourcing the company page or the original video. Above is a 3rd party video.
Sent from the new iPad
On Mar 31, 2013, at 12:27 PM, "Dave Saylor" <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Is that the L3 unit? I remember seeing the price and thinking oh brother. I'd rather install a vacuum system, and buy the 3 indicators that are gonna to fail over a couple thousand hours.
Dave Saylor
831-750-0284 CL
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Robin Marks <robin(at)painttheweb.com (robin(at)painttheweb.com)>
This discussion has been beneficial and reconfirms my feeling that in an emergency when everything appears as if you are looking through a straw and your head fills with conflicting decision paths that the safest bet is on a 100% independent back up system on its own battery (if needed).
I was thrilled to see a new back up EFIS advertised in one of the aviation magazines I receive. Its a sweet little unit that appears to be well designed. After reading of its capabilities and watching the company video I was impressed with the SAM back up EFIS. I had to dig a little deeper to find the unit pricing. $10,800.00. Bahhhahahha
Those poor bastards in the certified world will probably have $15K once installed by a certified mechanic. The SAM is a unit that is comparable to the TT Gemini EFIS I have in my 8A for $1,300.
I have been very pleased and impressed with my TT Gemini EFIS and I feel comfortable using that as my sole navigation device in an emergency. For $15K I can install 3 TT Gemini back up units each with its own back up battery, buy two Dynon D1 pocket EFIS, buy 3 iPads and an iPad mini plus a years worth of AV gas.
My point is there are some quality backup devices that will provide full 6 pack info in a small footprint that are eminently affordable. Retrofitting for a TT Gemini or the like is a pretty simple task and gives great peace of mind should primary instruments start going dark on you.
Robin
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