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Mountain Flying

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: Mountain Flying

I have just come across a superb NZ Safety publication on 

mountain flying (courtesy of the Highlands Strut 

newsletter) at : 

www.caa.govt.nz/safety_info/GAPs/Mountain_Flying.pdf 

Highly recommended. I will put the reference on the club 

website in theflying section.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

pestar

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mountain Flying

Am doing a mountain flying course this Winter in the South Island.  NZ is great little place for flying, please ignore my bias.  Mountain flying is now part of the PPL curriculum.



Cheers Peter

_________________
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me Smile

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Mountain Flying

Hi,



I'm planning for a trip to the Alps this summer and go up there to about 15.000 ft. I wonder about the necessity to use oxygen. Is there anyone who regularly flies high altitude and which system do you use? I'm thinking about the Mountain High O2D2 with cannulas which is also quite popular in the sailplane community. There are also little emergency oxygen cans available but their intended use is for an emergency descent in case of a malfunction in the regular O2-system.



I've heard of some who fly even at FL 200 without O2, but also heard of few who cannot share their experiences about that any longer.   



I know the rules and wouldn't myself encourage anyone to break them. I only want to assess risks and maybe get tips about O2-systems.



Btw: I'm a nonesmoker. 



Thanks 

Roland



XS Trigear 914

PH-ZTI

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: Mountain Flying

Hi Roland 



I always used to use oxygen above 10,000 feet when I had my Twin Com.  When

doing my initial pilot training we went in a depressurization chamber to

demonstrate the effects of lack of oxygen.  I was the member of the group

who had my oxygen turned off by the instructor on the way up.  I passed out

just above 15,000 feet.  At the time I was 19 years of age, very fit and a

non smoker so it just depends on your physiology.



Since then I have skied at 15,000 feet but obviously I had had time to

acclimatize to he altitude.



Can't advise on portable oxygen systems never used one.



Personally I would not take the risk of high altitude without oxygen.  The

biggest danger is that you don't realize hypoxia is happening to you. 



Regards



Pete



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: Mountain Flying

Roland, When I researched the question a few years back 

(whilst planning to fly to Australia at 10,000ft - which 

was abandoned in the end) the Mountain High system seemed 

the clear best bet. It is not cheap but you can (at least 

in this country) hire them or possibly borrow one from a 

gliding friend. If you are just planning to fly through 

the Alps then none of the passes are significantly more 

than 10,000ft and you can get away without oxygen. I ski 

comfortably at 10,000ft along with several friends the 

wrong side of 70. Historically lots of glider pilots have 

been up to 17,000ft without oxygen and only a few of them 

fell out of the sky!

           One thing I would reccomend is a pulse oximeter 

which can be bought online for 50 euros or less and can 

give you some way of checking you are not going hypoxic, 

although speaking as a doctor, knowing quite what % oxygen 

saturation to accept is not easy! None of my anaesthetic 

friends who use them all the time could give me a sensible 

answer about what level is acceptable & compatible with 

normal brain function in a conscious healthy person. I had 

planned an experimental sortie going up with another pilot 

with him using oxygen and me not to record oxygen 

saturation, mental agility and flying correctness at 

various density altitudes, and also checking whether 

things deteriorated when staying at the same altitude for 

a length of time. My Oz trip was abandoned before I got to 

that - a pity really!

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:56:35 -0700

  "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<schmidtroland(at)web.de>

 

 Hi,

 

 I'm planning for a trip to the Alps this summer and go 

up there to about 15.000 ft. I wonder about the necessity 

to use oxygen. Is there anyone who regularly flies high 

altitude and which system do you use? I'm thinking about 

the Mountain High O2D2 with cannulas which is also quite 

popular in the sailplane community. There are also little 

emergency oxygen cans available but their intended use is 

for an emergency descent in case of a malfunction in the 

O2-system.

 

 I've heard of some who fly even at FL 200 without O2, 

but also heard of few who cannot share their experiences 

about that   

 

 I know the rules and wouldn't encourage anyone to break 

them. I only want to assess risks and maybe get tips 

about O2-systems.

 

 Btw: I'm a nonesmoker. 

 

 Thanks 

 Roland

 

 XS Trigear 914

 PH-ZTI

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398494#398494

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:27 pm Post subject: Mountain Flying

If your interested, you can buy the finger size pulse ox machines online,

they are small

Light and give you sats for oxygen in your blood as well as pulse rate, they

are normally

Around $100 or so, could be a good investment even if you are ON oxygen,

should the system fail

You would have an early warning your blood oxygen levels are dropping



Good flying



craig

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Mountain Flying

Hi,



Normals sats for a healthy (and non-COPD) person are 94-98%. Below 88% is considered poor and would warrant high flow oxygen (15 LPM) through a non-rebreathing mask in the emergency situation.



Cheers,



Mark

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:34 am Post subject: Mountain Flying

Mark, I realise I was being idle in not doing a bit more 

research before mentioning pulse oximeters. There is a 

good article at : 

www.avweb.com/news/aeromedical/181896-1.html

That gives normal (ie average in healthy people) O2 

saturations as follows:

10k ft - 88-93%

13k.    - 83-88%

16k -     75-80 %

20k.  -   70-75%

The authors point out that some people without 

acclimatisation wil be fully functional at 20,000 ft 

whereas others will be unconscious, and that here is no 

critical level appropriate for everyone. That means to me 

that if anyone is contemplating flying at a level 

appreciably above 10k without O2 they would be well 

advised to carry out experiments with an oximeters and a 

safety pilot on oxygen.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 23:33:25 -0700

  "Mark Burton" <markb(at)ordern.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<markb(at)ordern.com>

 

 Hi,

 

 Normals sats for a healthy (and non-COPD) person are 

94-98%. Below 88% is considered poor and would warrant 

high flow oxygen (15 LPM) through a non-rebreathing mask 

in the emergency situation.

 

 Cheers,

 

 Mark

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398536#398536

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

Mark Burton

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 74

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Mountain Flying

Hi David,



That's useful sats/alt info.



The figures I quoted are, of course, only good for low-altitude.



Cheers,



Mark

f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: Mountain flying

- and ancillary considerations:

            In early days, O2 was dispensed as a free gas. This was Ok until the altitude produced a pressure lower than the partial pressure of O2. ** We were wearing soft leather gloves to offset burnt skin in a cockpit fire.

Down came the order - be prepared to doff one glove when you begin to feel even slightly strange - it may be your oxygen system is defunct and you haven’t seen the breath gauge if installed.

            With the glove off, press down the thumb nail on the bare hand with your first finger. The nail should go white (blood pressed out of it). WHEN you let go, it should immediately go red (blood resumed). If it doesn’t, you’re in the preliminary stages of oxygen starvation. Descend, descend, descend.

            Alcohol, smoking and several other endeavours arrange to starve you partially of O2 - (that’s where the fun is). Familiarity with this state conditions your body to accept lower O2 levels and so some can suspect loss later than others.

            Drink less, smoke less and poke your thumbnail more often and save money. That’s what opposing digits are for.

Ferg

**Of course with the advanced fighters, O2 came pressurised above 36,000 or so and the gloves came back on because you had to physically breathe OUT and loss was evident instantly.

 [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 808

Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: Mountain flying

Hi Group 

 	All this talk of supplemental oxygen raises a question: 

 	Has anyone used or flown at altitude with an oxygen concentrator instead of an oxygen bottle? Please share details (cost, what model, where it was purchased, size, weight and power consumption). 

 	Thx. 

 	Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Mountain Flying

Thank you very much to all those who respondet to my questions, also by e-mail and even offered me to lend their Mountain High for testing (nochmals Danke, Alfred)! I got some valuable tips (especially the one with the pulse oxymeter, which I've ordered already) and I know now for sure that I'm right to take hypoxia very serious.



Roland

XS Trigear 914

PH-ZTI

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