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wing lift/drag pins
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hyde.interiors(at)btinter
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

I have recently purchased a Europa and there is a little for/aft movement on the pip pin socket mount . Is this usual?



 [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Sue, the socket is able to pivot in a wing flapping mode, 

but otherwise should be very tight in its fore Nd aft 

retaining shoulders and they should be absolutely rigidly 

fixed to the underlying wood & composite mount. It does 

not sound entirely healthy from your description and I 

would strongly advise you get an inspector to look at it 

before you take to the air.

Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ



On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:15:15 +0100 (BST)

  sue hyde <hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have recently purchased a Europa and there is a little 

for/aft movement on the pip pin socket mount . Is this 

usual?

hyde.interiors(at)btinter
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Many thanks for the reply but I misled you with my description. The play I am talking about can be felt on the tip of the main wings when manouvering the aeroplane and appears to be on the rear drag pin/pip pin area. The socket is secure to the fuselage and the drag pin is secure to the wing. there  is just a little play in the swivel of the socket

 



    

From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 19:06

Subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins



 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

Sue, the socket is able to pivot in a wing flapping mode, but otherwise should be very tight in its fore Nd aft retaining shoulders and they should be absolutely rigidly fixed to the underlying wood & composite mount. It does not sound entirely healthy from your description and I would strongly advise you get an inspector to look at it before you take to the air.

Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ



On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:15:15 +0100 (BST)

sue hyde <hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com (hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have recently purchased a Europa and there is a little for/aft movement on the pip pin socket mount . Is this p; --> http://forums.matronics.com/

sp;   bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List Ad=======

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:24 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Hi! Sue

I don’t profess to be an authority ....however are there visual signs of any wear in the drag pin and swivels?  Is the play identical on both wings ? Are the front lift pins visually worn (or the holes with which they engage ) Are the main spar pins and bushes secure in both the seat backs and spars? Does the spar assembly have a wrap round “cuff” and is it snug to both the spars when assembled ? (best do a trial assembly of the spars and wings clear of the aircraft to see this issue) Is there any free play between the four faces of the ailerons control transfer pads ? Is the main spar pip pin suitably packed out so the pip clamps the starboard spar tip to the aft of port spar and seat back w 

Get positive answers to all these items and you should be fit to fly. 

Where do you fly out of?

Regards

Bob Harrison  G=PTAG  Kit 337 (1000 Hours)

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of sue hyde

Sent: 23 June 2013 07:54

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

 

Many thanks for the reply but I misled you with my description. The play I am talking about can be felt on the tip of the main wings when manouvering the aeroplane and appears to be on the rear drag pin/pip pin area. The socket is secure to the fuselage and the drag pin is secure to the wing. there  is just a little play in the swivel of the socket

 



From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) 

Sent: Saturday, 22 June 2013, 19:06

Subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

--> Europa-List message posted by: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)>

Sue, the socket is able to pivot in a wing flapping mode, but otherwise should be very tight in its fore Nd aft retaining shoulders and they should be absolutely rigidly fixed to the underlying wood & composite mount. It does not sound entirely healthy from your description and I would strongly advise you get an inspector to look at it before you take to the air.

Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ



On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:15:15 +0100 (BST)

sue hyde <hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com (hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have recently purchased a Europa and there is a little for/aft movement on the pip pin socket mount . Is this p; --> http://forums.matronics.com/

sp;   bsp;               -Matt Dralle, List Ad=======
	


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  [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:43 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Sue, Not quite able to picture exactly what you describe,

but if in doubt, and in any case with a newly purchased

homebuilt plane there is much to be said to having an LAA

inspector look it over. You will in any case need to

establish a relationship with one to get your maintenance

signed off. LAA engineering will give you a list of

inspectors or you could ask on this list for

recommendations if you give your home area. And while you

are at it if you haven't already joined I strongly

recommend joining the Europa Club (www.theeuropaclub.org), 

which offers

wide reaching technical support and all sorts of other 

support.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 07:54:12 +0100 (BST)

  sue hyde <hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Many thanks for the reply but I misled you with my 

description. The play I am talking about can be felt on 

the tip of the main wings when manouvering the aeroplane 

and appears to be on the rear drag pin/pip pin area. The 

socket is secure to the fuselage and the drag pin is 

secure to the wing. there  is just a little play in the 

swivel of the socket

 

 

 

 ________________________________

From: David Joyce <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com Sent: Saturday, 22 June 

2013, 19:06

 Subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

 

 

 

<davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 

 

 Sue, the socket is able to pivot in a wing flapping mode, 

but otherwise should be very tight in its fore Nd aft 

retaining shoulders and they should be absolutely rigidly 

fixed to the underlying wood & composite mount. It does 

not sound entirely healthy from your description and I 

would strongly advise you get an inspector to look at it 

before you take to the air.

 Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ

 

 On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 17:15:15 +0100 (BST)

 sue hyde <hyde.interiors(at)btinternet.com> wrote:

> I have recently purchased a Europa and there is a little 

>for/aft movement on the pip pin socket mount . Is this 

>usual?================

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:03 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Sue,



David's advice regarding an LAA inspector is good, especially with a newly

acquired aircraft.  Having said that, if you move the wing tip back and

forth, a few thousandths of an inch play at the rear wing pin will translate

to noticeable movement at the wing tip because of the geometry.  There must

be some clearance or you would not be able to get the pins in or out. My

aircraft has been like this from new and I have been unable to find any

significant play in any of the fittings. It may not be a problem but it is

best to get it checked.



Regards



Brian Davies G-DDBD



--

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:18 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Sue,

 I agree with the guys...

 When in doubt, have the pin and socket measured and checked.

  

 In some aircraft the builder would find that by reaming the hole, the wings  rigged easier.  Of course, over time the pin could move a bit and as a  result the pin and socket can wear a bit more over time.  

  

 In a properly built Europa the wing will move fore and aft a bit at the tip  because the front pin is not up hard against its socket and the spar does bend a  bit.  However, you should not be able to see the pin move in the socket  when an assistant moves the wing tip.  If the pin moves enough in the  socket that you can see it, you may in fact have either a worn wing pin hole,  pip pin or socket hole.

  

 I strongly recommend you remove the wings and use a micrometer and  check the wing pin hole, pip pin and socket hole for wear.  I would think  that it should be no more than a 3-4 thousandths difference from 1/4  inch pin and 1/4 inch holes (the mil spec pin diameter is .2485  inches and the balls go out to .289 inches).  So  7-8 thousandths  total slop is about your normal tolerance for a proper fit between the three  items.  Any more and the pin starts getting pretty sloppy and the  pin holes or the balls on the pip pin could be compromised.

  

 Just check it and be sure.  It is not hard to change out the wing pin,  pip pin or socket hole.

  

 Regards,

 Bud Yerly    

 [quote]   ---

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hi Bud.

Having read all the post on this, I am beginning to think I should have bought a Cessna 150.

Ref ,

"Just check it and be sure. It is not hard to change out the wing pin, pip pin or socket hole." 



What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,

to the size of the new pip pins, and do they come in a few different thicknesses ?



And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into the fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the wing, why is there no pipe]pin here.

I would say the rear one is in compression so keeps itself in.



Regards. 

Alan

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:30 pm Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

On 06/28/2013 10:10 PM, Alan Carter wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,

 to the size of the new pip pins, and do they come in a few different thicknesses ?


	


I would not ream out the spar bushes; imagine your next pin has a

slightly smaller diameter. Instead sand/polish the new pin a bit until

it fits.

But first of all, check whether the pin will fit in the various unrigged

parts. If it fits, then it is an alignment problem. And yes, you can

solve that problem as well but this involves some carefull realignment

of the bushes.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into the fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the wing, why is there no pipe]pin here.


	


If I recall correctly the wings want to fold forewards, escpecially on

high AOA's. Furthermore, there is already a pip pin in the rear pin, and

the sockets are connected to each other via a bar. The front pin can

never fall out of its socket.

If you would put a pip pin in the front pin, you would tranfer the loads

of the fuselage onto the wing root, as the wing root is stiffer than the

fuselage. The fuselage is not designed to take sideway loads near the

front pin, there is no stifness there, so it could never offer any

stability to the wing.



Frans

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hi Frans.

Never built one, so just using my eye.

When I stick my arm out of a car window it wants to go back inline with the bodywork.

So tension at the front and compression at the rear,

hence this mod of putting a bar between the two rear locator sockets.

My eye tells me that the front pin ,if not for the rigidity of the wing, the front pin is trying to pull out.

So can you give some simple reasoning why this is no so, as I said I am only using my eye.

Regards.

Alan

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Alan.



You are , in this instance wrong , the bar between the rear drag pins is designed to be in tension not compression.

Frans is completely correct ,  Sometimes eyes are not enough.

 



Tim



On 28 June 2013 22:37, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>

  

 Hi Frans.

 Never built one, so just using my eye.

 When I stick my arm out of a car window it wants to go back inline with the bodywork.

 So tension at the front and compression at the rear,

 hence this mod of putting a bar between the two rear locator sockets.

 My eye tells me that the front pin ,if not for the rigidity of the wing, the front pin is trying to pull out.

 So can you give some simple reasoning why this is no so, as I said I am only using my eye.

 Regards.

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403584#403584

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:43 pm Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Hello Alan,



 	  Quote: 	
		   What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,


	


None of the bushes or fittings should have to be reamed.  If pins don't fit, 

the problem is one of alignment.



 	  Quote: 	
		   And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into 

 the fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the 

 wing, why is there no pipe]pin here.

 I would say the rear one is in compression so keeps itself in.


	


Correct and also Incorrect.



In normal level flight, what you are saying is correct however, at high 

angles of attack, the wing then pulls forwards.  If you have trouble 

understanding this, ask yourself why the blades of an autogyro don't rotate 

in the opposite direction to what they do.

Cheers

Kingsley

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:14 am Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hi All.

I do not have a problem myself with the pins, i hope,

However i am interested in anything structural on the aircraft.



With regards to my eye,s being wrong, not saying i have it right,

however i need an explanation as to why this bar is in tension.



From my old instructors days i know lift acts upwards and weight downwards

and with an increase in AA the center of pressure moves forward.



But if i push at the wing tip i am compressing that bar.



So anybody out there , help me out here and explain my error.



Regards.

Alan.



But keep it simple please.

g-fizy

Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 46
Location: uk

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:34 am Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

i did buy a cessna 150 aerobat ,because i could not afford a europa ,the first annual ,they told me the wings had a couple of patches put on so the wings will need recovering ,also the seat belts wer ten years old and need replacing 3k yes thats right for a seat belt ,they also said the engine had filings so thats another 20k oh and repaint ,,,,so i saved and saved got to 30k and they said they were to busy to do the work ,,so i bought a europa and sold the cessna for spares "still wish you had bought a cessna "? 



 	  Alan Carter wrote: 	
		  Hi Bud.

Having read all the post on this, I am beginning to think I should have bought a Cessna 150.

Ref ,

"Just check it and be sure. It is not hard to change out the wing pin, pip pin or socket hole." 



What do you have to do, Ream out oversize holes in the spares bushes,

to the size of the new pip pins, and do they come in a few different thicknesses ?



And with regards to the front pin which locates the front of the wing into the fuselage, I would say this pin wants to pull out, ie from drag on the wing, why is there no pipe]pin here.

I would say the rear one is in compression so keeps itself in.



Regards. 

Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hi.

Want to keep with the wing attachments.



Think you were being done over,

At today's prices you could buy 3 old Cessna 150s for the price i paid for my Europa.

Owning a Europe is not cheap.with a mag coil at Â£300. Just had my permit done, the inspector said are that,s the one with all the mods.

I like the speed of the Europa, and i like  the idea that you can detach the wings for storage, but i am not sure where i would place it in the home built aircraft chart,

The Cessna 150 the old Cart Horse of the sky , Slow , ugly old ships,( not saying cart horses are ugly quit the opposite),but  both as strong as hell. Done about 8000 hours o C150s   and given them hell.



Regards

Alan

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:55 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

To answer this, one has to draw the lift and drag vectors on the wing both at low and high angle of attack (and thus g's at high speeds) and you will see that the resultant total vector is well ahead of the wings leading edge, meaning that they are being pulled forward.  



There are also vid clips of wing failures on YouTube which show the wings folding forward.



Cheers,

Pete

A239



On Jun 29, 2013, at 6:14 AM, "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hi All.

 I do not have a problem myself with the pins, i hope,

 However i am interested in anything structural on the aircraft.

 

 With regards to my eye,s being wrong, not saying i have it right,

 however i need an explanation as to why this bar is in tension.

 

> From my old instructors days i know lift acts upwards and weight downwards

 and with an increase in AA the center of pressure moves forward.

 

 But if i push at the wing tip i am compressing that bar.

 

 So anybody out there , help me out here and explain my error.

 

 Regards.

 Alan.

 

 But keep it simple please.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=403608#403608

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hello Peter.

Allouette Flying Club Biggin Hill, many years ago, ??

Sorry you may well be right , but I am not convinced yet.

To move forward thrust must be greater than drag, and in level flight thrust must equal drag, this is all from memory, and it was a long ago so some number may not be correct, however can,t remember all ,but the total drag is made from a many different types of drag, one being Foam drag or it may have another name!, but this increases by the square of the speed, all I remember is,( double the speed 4 times the drag), so think the total force is rearwards.

I do remember seeing a bombing raid, and a bomb falling from above went through a Superfortress wing and took it clean off, and the only way that went was up.

So I still remain undecided. Does it say in the Europa manual the name of this bar, I believe it was a mod. Sorry I am such a nuisance, but my old instructor told me to be sure in your own mind, and that what I have done over the years.     

Regards.

Alan

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:00 pm Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

Alan

It's true, at high AOA the wings pull themselves forward as well as up. Took me a while to get my

head round this paradox but if you turn the airplane upside down set it up in high lift configuration then load

it up the wings will pull forwards as well as down. Draw the vectors in and you  will see. 

Graham

        From: Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2013, 21:50

 Subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hello Peter.

Allouette Flying Club Biggin Hill, many years ago, ??

Sorry you may well be right , but I am not convinced yet.

To move forward thrust must be greater than drag, and in level flight thrust must equal drag, this is all from memory, and it was a long ago so some number may not be correct, however can,t remember all ,but the total drag is made from a many different types of drag, one being Foam drag or it may have another name!, but this increases by the square of the speed, all I remember is,( double the speed 4 times the drag), so think the total force is rearwards.

I do remember seeing a bombing raid, and a bomb falling from above went through a Superfortress wing and took it clean off, and the only way that went was up.

So I still remain undecided. Does it say in the Europa manual the name of this bar, I  believe it was a mod. Sorry I am such a nuisance, but my old instructor told me to be sure in your own mind, and that what I have done over the years.     

Regards.

Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?pics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

 

  

  

 [quote][b]

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: wing lift/drag pins

"Alan Carter"   wrote . . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		   So anybody out there , help me out here and explain my error.


	


Hello again Alan,



Please open the attached file which will hopefully explain the fore and aft 

forces on the wings as I understand it.



I'm sure someone will make me aware if I am telling any untruths !



Cheers

Kingsley in Oz

LD_Scenarios.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

LD_Scenarios.pdf

Filesize:

15.28 KB

Downloaded:

347 Time(s)

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: wing lift/drag pins

Hello Graham and Kingsley.

Well thank you both very much, Indeed the diagrams show a forward component, and it says the wings pull forward, and indeed the bracket has a pin through it which one would associate with pulling forward maybe.  , But i am still not convinced wish i was.

I guess you are all probably right , but i see the possibility of a forward 

pull at high angles of attack , but in normal flight i see the a backward

component , this being most of the time in normal flight, so you have both forward and backward movements of the wing.

But i think you are looking at the lift envelope, so i still think the Total

of all the components is backward, Stall turn or Tail slip the 

exceptions.



I have this. It mentions Tensile, But it dose not really state the normal condition of this bar, well not to me,

This modification introduces a new wing rear-attachment pin with a longer threaded portion and a

Nyloc nut and load spreading washer added behind the inboard flap hinge-plate to react the tensile

load in the pin and so increase the tolerance to incorrectly constructed hard points. In addition,

a tie-bar is incorporated to efficiently react tensile loads between the wing rear attachments. The

tie-bar forms part of optional Mod 52, however, unless all the other features of Mod 52 are installed, 

no increase in maximum gross weight will be permitted.



I asked a friend who was head of physics he said the same as me.

But We could both be wrong, At the moment my thoughts are mostly backwards but on High AA possible forward, but i am not sure.

I will follow this up and try to write to somebody Aerodynamics.

As i am really interested now. Maybe i will start with Europa them self, this is going to take me some time.

But i need to satisfy myself that my understanding is maybe wrong??.

  



Regards.

Alan

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