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Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

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tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

Gidday,

I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found the incidence had changed nominally. I have attempted to make a small adjustment with the TE socket position which is reduced but not bolted, yet. It was suggested that I could twist the spar nominally to get the angle accurate but to be honest I didn't like doing that although I suppose it wouldn't have mattered that much because we might only be talking about a % of a single degree of twist. Still, I didn't like that idea. Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees which is to me unacceptable, BUT, its a lot of work to undo things. That probably isn't completely true as I only have the sockets mounted with Redux, so I could heat them and snap them off and start again, but I worry I'm going to do a lot of work and may well end up right back where I've started. My pins fit nicely in the back of the seat, and that took a lot of mucking around, and I worry that to undo things and redo them I mightn't get the same result. I want to know what people think of this angle, whether anyone else has not set it perfectly, what difference they perceive it might make on their plane, and whether anyone has factual consequence of it not being 100% right. I do worry only about the relationship of the tailplane to the wing, but having a fully flyable tailplane removes some of the problems of not having a perfect AoI. The impact could be however that at optimum in trim cruise the tailplane may be at a slightly different angle at an optimum CoG, and the full range of pitch may be not what was originally planned. 

So, if anyone has advice I'd really appreciate input. I should also add that I am building a taildraggers, a Bob Berube mod from Florida, which relies on the same moments as the mono wheel by having the design such that the a/c has a similar stature on the ground. Maybe the higher AoI might be a bonus, and help me fly away better, climb better, but no go quite as fast. To be honest, I don't care anymore as I would prefer to not have to undo stuff I have done. I'm becoming pretty good at that but unfortunately keep practicing the skill. 

Regards

Tony Renshaw

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same.  I set my up with the fuselage bottom only.  I now have both top and bottom on and have 30 hours of flight time.  I have a left wing low.  I went back and measured both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.  



Not sure why!  I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings!



I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft left wing drops in a second.  I'm planning on resetting the front socket.  



I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly.



Do it right the first, second, third time.  If it's right you will have no troubles when you fly it.  Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind aileron end plate to set the sweep.



Rick Stockton

N120EJ

Jabiru 3330L

Whirlwind Ground Adjustable

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

On 07/04/2013 04:11 AM, Tony Renshaw wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.com>

 

 Gidday, I have set up my port wing, pulling it in tight agains the

 rear face of the cockpit module and setting the incidence. I've used

 a digital level and upon bonding on the LE lift pin socket I found

 the incidence had changed nominally.


	


Forget this digital level. Been there, done that. It changes everytime,

depending on where you measure and other obscure variables. It drives

you nuts and leads nowhere. And is not precise enough anyway.



Prepare two blocks of some suitable material (wood, blue foam), about 4

cm or so high, and make sure they are of exactly the same size.

Put them on the trailing edge of the wing, at the same distance from the

fuselage.

Now walk away from the airplane. At least 5 meters, more is better.

Bring the top of the leading edge exactly in line with the block on the

trailing edge (just like aiming a gun, you could as well put a needle on

the block and a hairline cross sticking out of the leading edge). On

both sides (port and starboard) you should have the leading edge and

blocks in line at exactly the same eye height. You will notice that

moving your eye just a cm up or down will make a whole difference.

If you do the math, you will find out that this method is many times

more precise than any digital level and you will be able to sight

fractions of a degree. What's more, you can repeat this with the blocks

at varying distances from the fuselage (but keep port and starboard

always at the same distance to cancel the wash out!) and get some

"avarage" out of it to cancel out minor imperfections of the shape of

the wing.

You can get it even more precise if you use some reflecting material, or

put a bright LED on top of the blocks, or use some sort of back light.

It is just like seeing the exact moment of sun rise or sun set. At 20

meters away it is awfully precise to see if both wings are equal: both

leds (or lamps) should rise at exactly the same moment over the leading

edge while you move your head slowly up! Less than just a millimeter of

difference in trailing edge will be clearly visible.



I ended up doing the wings this way, the outcome was stable, repeatable

and very precise, and during curing of the araldite I kept the blocks on

and "sighted" the wings regularly to be sure that nothing moved.

The airplane can be flown right into a stall and just bobs up and down

like a straight Cessna, not even the smallest tendency to wing drop.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees

 which is to me unacceptable,


	


The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? Then don't worry. I set mine

deliberately at 0.1 steeper because I have a high top and would prefer

just a tad more nose down to cancel out the steeper angle of the roof

and to get more view over the higher firewall. Flies beautifully!



Frans

Richard Lamprey

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 95
Location: Kenya

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

Getting it right first time is good.  But also I dimly remember (from the days of the Europa Newsletter, around 1997) the tale of G-KITS, the first factory demonstrator for the Classic tri-gear, where one wing was accidentally built with 1 degree WASHIN, not 1.5 degree washout.  You would think it would have stall/ wingdrop characteristics from hell, but apparently it flew just fine, and is still flying - I see its picture online.  So perhaps there is some leeway in the AoI.



Richard

Classic Reg 5Y-LRY, Kenya

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:32 AM, Frans Veldman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  Suffice to say I now somehow have 2.8 degrees

which is to me unacceptable,

	


The target was 2.7 if I recall correctly? 	




I believe the XS build manual calls for 2.5 degrees...

Fred

 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:41 am Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Tony,

 Welcome to my world.

 The first Europa I purchased used had the left wing at 2.6 and the right at  3.1.  I moved the sockets in the right fuselage side to 2.6.  It flies  straight and true.  If you were to set both at 2.8 degrees your fuselage  will be nose down a bit at cruise, which shouldn't hurt a thing.  Just go  for it.

  

 As for your gear relationship, deck angle etc. on landing, I can only say  that the extra bit of incidence will allow you to be closer to the stall angle  at the three point touchdown and improve over the nose visibility.

  

 In practice I found that I can correct with flap and aileron trimming up to  .2 degrees incidence difference and you will never see my changes.  At .4  incidence difference, I have to modify the the wing leading edge to get a  perfectly straight stall. 

  

 First consider this:  To be sure as Frans and others might say that  later, that all digital and spirit or bubble levels are not  equal.  In fact I have one that is off .3 degrees when tested at three  degrees.  My test bench is a simple 3 inch block in 60 inches and with the  level facing one direction and when the level is rotated 180 degrees  putting the scale window on the other side it measures 2.7 degrees rather than  the three.  That's 10 percent off.  

  

 So it is best to set your spirit level or digital level on a dead flat  surface and check the zero to 3 degree setting.  I used to set my level at  2.5 degrees (2.5 inch board at 60 inches) 3 degrees, 5 degrees and 12 degrees  for calibration purposes of the wing incidence, and tail planes to make sure  things are fairly close to the manual.

  

 Since your sockets are only in Redux, snap them off and fix them both is  what I would do.

  

 I have found that the best way to make sure things don't move is to shore  up the wing well during cure.  Just in case the temp changes over cure  time, I block the gear also if necessary.  Trigear, I put a pipe in  the main gear, and for the conventional, I block the spring gear itself.

  

 I know that you don't really want to hear this but the standard rule in my  shop is take it apart and put it together (normally about 5 times) until it is  repeatable and easy to do.  That means when building glider wings, or  rigging the plane, or hanging the cowl if you try to do things in one shot, you  will have to redo it to get it right.

  

 The worst thing to happen when rigging wings is to have the left spar  creep aft during the socket build up then it causes so many troubles down the  road.  Take your time, make sure it fits all around then tack it in  place.  

  

 The only difference between a professional build and an amateur build, is I  know how to fix my mistakes before it affects something else.

  

 As for the tail dragger, good luck.  It is best to modify the gear to  get the position of the axle to leading edge of the wing MAC (about 2/3 out  on the wing from fuselage centerline) over the axle with the fuselage in level  position.  Contact Grove, as Bobby Grove has a couple of solutions.   (New gear or 1/4 inch steel plates to increase deck angle and move the axles  back about 4-5 inches.  As the gear as is, I find it un-gratifying to  fly the gear as designed.  It is very tough to wheel land the conventional  due to the spring stiffness and forward position.  With a 10 Knot cross  wind I can land on one main and do a wheel landing with ease and no tire wear  (without the crosswind, tire wear on a wing low slightly slipped landing is  more than I care to pay for).  Three point is not a problem.  It  is quite tough to teach a new guy how to land and takeoff with the gear as  set.  It's a mono except it doesn't fall over when the wings are pulled  off.  If you hit mains first with any vertical component, the tail drops  faster than you can react and combined with the extra lift from the  drooping tail added to the gear spring reaction, you get launched back in  the air, then hit the tail wheel, you over correct and down on the main again  resulting in a porpoise which continues to increase in speed and frequency  naturally and any PIO combination can be a disaster.  Just go around  and get the tail wheel on first.  Don't relax on roll out as between 45 to  a fast walk it tends to wander and you have to "stay on it".  Not difficult  to master, it just takes practice, discipline and  the ability to go around  early when it doesn't work out on first contact.  Go around early and save  yourself and the plane.

  

 I highly recommend you do not install a fully swiveling tail wheel unless  you can lock it from the cockpit as the torque of a 912S with Airmaster is  enough that a moment of inattention or failure to keep the stick full back is a  real eye opener for the new guy on takeoff if the tail wheel is not positively  locked.  Next, on landing or a bounce, if slightly sideways, the tail wheel  may unlock and you will be off to the races with no tail control but the rudder  which is not effective at really low speed on takeoff or roll out...

  

 Find a Luscombe with a bad wheel alignment on steroids to practice with on  asphalt.  Keep it straight, lower your IQ to a 2 and hold it off until hit  the tail wheel first.  You'll be fine.

  

 Regards,

 Bud

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:30 am Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

The AoA that must be accurate is at roughly the outboard end of the spar.

AoA at the wing root is pretty irrelevant. Think about it, there's almost no rolling moment there. 

I made a jig to measure AoA using the leading edge and the trailing edge, a Vee on it's side for the LE and a straight edge to sit on the trailing edge. Straight edge to join the two. This is your datum line, not essential that it is parallel to the wing chord line but you will need to use a digital level.

Next get the first wing set up as per the manual.

Now set up the second wing to match the first. 

It wouldn't do any harm to check the wings at the tips too, this will

tell you if the wings have different washout angle but maybe you didn't want to know that!

Graham





        From: AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Thursday, 4 July 2013, 16:39

 Subject: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

  

 

--> Europa-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>



Tony, I can tell you from experience that both wings have to be the same.  I set my up with the fuselage bottom only.  I now have both top and bottom  on and have 30 hours of flight time.  I have a left wing low.  I went back and measured both wings and the right is 2.4 degrees and the left is 1.7 degrees.  



Not sure why!  I took pictures of the level showing 2.5 degrees on both wings!



I have lower the left wing flap about a degree or two, but at low speed the aircraft left wing drops in a second.  I'm planning on resetting the front socket.  



I'm worried about the holes that I drilled in the metal plate that is in the fuselage and will cut out the fuselage skin and add a plate to the ole one then set the wing up correctly.



Do it right the first, second, third time.  If it's right you will have no troubles when you fly it.  Use a laser measure from the tail plane tubes to the wind aileron end plate to set the sweep.



Rick Stockton

N120EJ

Jabiru 3330L

Whirlwind Ground Adjustable





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na=               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matr                     &nbs//www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.co==================

 

 

  

 [quote][b]

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:03 pm Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Graham,

 Well said.  If a plane comes in here we do the same thing.  It  saves a lot of head scratching.  We measure root, (granted outside of the  filler and fillets), mid wing between the flap and aileron, and tip.  Then  compare the two wing sides.  If you adjust the flap and aileron to even  them up (the aileron has to be contoured to stay where you want it) it makes  trimming a lot less trial and error plus you don't need those ugly bendy  tabs.

 Bud 

 [quote]   ---

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 am Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

Thanks Bud,

I use Gurney flaps for trim, a few inches of draft excluder stuck under the trailing edge of one aileron. I always tried to get the flaps reflexed up a bit to match the digital print out of the airfoil. Most folks assume it should be flat under the TE but it isn't. Another omission in the manual! Poor old Andy, he was under so much pressure when he wrote it, all sorts of things needing attention, especially the hassles they had with the fuel tank. No one told them the tank would expand when filled with Mogas! Took a year to fix that! 

Graham





        From: Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 3:02

 Subject: Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

  

 

          Graham,

 Well said.  If a plane comes in here we do the same thing.  It  saves a lot of head scratching.  We measure root, (granted outside of the  filler and fillets), mid wing between the flap and aileron, and tip.  Then  compare the two wing sides.  If you adjust the flap and aileron to even  them up (the aileron has to be contoured to stay where you want it) it makes  trimming a lot less trial and error plus you don't need those ugly bendy  tabs.

 Bud 

 [quote]   ---

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:41 pm Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

Hi Guys,

  I would like to make a few comments / observations, not in any particular order, on some of the postings on here recently.

  G-KITS, originally had a set of Classic wings, built by a third party, where the port wing had 1.5 degrees of washIN, not evenly distributed along the wing, but mostly in the outboard panel. Wings rigged using the root area as datum. It flew, as you would expect, one wing low.

  Attempts to trim this out with aileron re rigging and flap drooping were unsuccessful, so the port wing was re rigged, can't remember by how much in degrees, but the figure of .3'' down at the leading edge comes to mind.

  Went much better after that, with some stall strip juggling it stalled true, BUT spins in one direction were frightening [ as in change of underpants frightening !].

  G-KITS was then retro fitted with a new set of XS wings,[ the original G-KITS wings went on the then retired G-YURO which was lost from active service in a take off incident when the Arplast prop decided, uncommanded, to go into Beta.........]

  Sockets had been unbolted / sweated off, alloy plates replaced and wing refitted as per Manual. Seatback spar bush re aligned with a hot, tapered pin  ''pugler''. Warm the pin, shove it through the seatback / wing spars and go for a coffee.

  UV degradation.... the paint would have been AERODUR C100UVR, about as good as paints get, the registration decals would have been Fascal vinyl, with a 7 year life... how old is KITS now ?..... Quality  polyurathane paints live quite well in Miami and Bahama marina's, unlike some of the ''unquality'' water thinned cr*p

   

  Wing  incidence cock up.......do it correctly, NOW ! Sweat the sockets off and redo it. Make sure the wings are fully forward, by tieing the spar tangs forward with rope, or chocking with wedges.

   If using a digital level, MAKE SURE YOU READ IT FROM THE SAME DIRECTION [ LOOKING INBOARD AT IT ON THE PORT WING, AND OUTBOARD AT IT ON THE STARBOARD WING] I have seen builders doing ''dry runs'' and looking inboard at the readout on both wings, any error in the tool itself, or in fuselage levelling will be doubled. Tap the level to see which way the reading ''skips'', get the ''skip'' the same on both wings. This will be as close a matters in the real world. 

  Shore the wings in several places so no movement is possible during the overnight Redux cure.

   

  Osmosis.... people are confusing Osmosis with Micro Blistering. What will be evident on a painted Epoxy surface is Micro Blistering, where water has got between the paint and the substrate, usually as a result of covering a wet [ water] surface and letting it sweat like a sauna, the moisture has gone through the paint skin and is trapped. Leaving this out in  the sun will usually dry it out. Left uncovered is a better option than covers. Micro Blisters are not a structural issue, merely water sitting on top of the epoxy substrate.

   Cover a car with a non breathing cover, left wet, the same Micro Blistering will occur over a steel substrate. 

  Osmosis [  in the GRP meaning of the word ] is the reaction with chemicals in / on the glass fibres [ usually the PVA binder holding the CSM together] and water, usually within  polyester resin, which turns to acid [ and will smell of vinegar if the bubble is popped.]

   

  My Inspector said ''that's the one with all the Mods''.......  working from memory, there were 32 Mods incorporated into the XS Kit by 1996, since then there have been 8 MANDATORY MODS, the rest have been upgrades. Put this into perspective, the Slingsby Firefly has 1200 + mods, wonder how many mods apply to a C150 ?

  The tie bar was introduced to allow the Gross weight to be raised to 1370 lbs, if anyone is happy to have the 1300 lb limit, the tie bar is not required [ nor is it required to change to the swivelling rear sockets.]

  Bit of History, the original G-YURO front wing pins were .75'' long, and there was no top hat stiffener from thigh support to door sill. Pete Clark [bless him] was ''vigorously exploring the flight envelope'', and  pulled a ''bit'' of  G, and the front pin popped out of the socket and rode above said socket. Apart from the ''bang'' which scared the s**t out of Pete and Roger Bull [ who was riding shotgun], nothing else happened, though it took some effort to de rig the wing later.

  A longer front pin [ same length as the flap pin,] and the top hat stiffener cured that. 

  Regarding Inspections, if the Inspector chosen for Permit Renewals only ''knowledge'' of the Europa is ''that's the one with all the Mods'', he probably [ or more likely definitely] isn't the Inspector you need to do the Permit, especially if you are not the builder of the aircraft.

  I once worked on a Europa that the current owner had just bought, with 5 hours flight time since the previous Permit, that had been Inspected by an ''old timer'' Inspector, and there were so many flight safety faults with it, I had to ''dob in'' the Inspector to LaaLaaLand. Turns out he was an expert in Austers and the like, but knew SFA about the Europa. LAA didn't take any action as he had since retired from Inspecting.

  Comparing a C150 with the Europa is pure folly, like comparing a Morris 1000 with  a Ford Focus ST ?

  I have 1.4 hrs in a C150, time I am never going to get back..... wasted...

    

   

  

  

  --

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:06 pm Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

NEv

wasn't it an Ivoprop that went into Beta?

Graham 



        From: Neville Eyre <neveyre(at)aol.com>

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Friday, 5 July 2013, 22:37

 Subject: Re: Re: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

  

 

 Hi Guys,

  I would like to make a few comments / observations, not in any particular order, on some of the postings on here recently.

  G-KITS, originally had a set of Classic wings, built by a third party, where the port wing had 1.5 degrees of washIN, not evenly distributed along the wing, but mostly in the outboard panel. Wings rigged using the root area as datum. It flew, as you would expect, one wing low.

  Attempts to trim this out with aileron re rigging and flap drooping were unsuccessful, so the port wing was re rigged, can't remember by how much in degrees, but the figure of .3'' down at the leading edge comes to mind.

  Went much better after that, with some stall strip juggling it stalled true, BUT spins in one direction were frightening [ as in change of underpants frightening !].

  G-KITS was then retro fitted with a new set of XS wings,[ the original G-KITS wings went on the then retired G-YURO which was lost from active service in a take off incident when the Arplast prop decided, uncommanded, to go into Beta.........]

  Sockets had been unbolted / sweated off, alloy plates replaced and wing refitted as per Manual. Seatback spar bush re aligned with a hot, tapered pin  ''pugler''. Warm the pin, shove it through the seatback / wing spars and go for a coffee.

  UV degradation.... the paint would have been AERODUR C100UVR, about as good as paints get, the registration decals would have been Fascal vinyl, with a 7 year life... how old is KITS now ?..... Quality  polyurathane paints live quite well in Miami and Bahama marina's, unlike some of the ''unquality'' water thinned cr*p

   

  Wing  incidence cock up.......do it correctly, NOW ! Sweat the sockets off and redo it. Make sure the wings are fully forward, by tieing the spar tangs forward with rope, or chocking with wedges.

   If using a digital level, MAKE SURE YOU READ IT FROM THE SAME DIRECTION [ LOOKING INBOARD AT IT ON THE PORT WING, AND OUTBOARD AT IT ON THE STARBOARD WING] I have seen builders doing ''dry runs'' and looking inboard at the readout on both wings, any error in the tool itself, or in fuselage levelling will be doubled. Tap the level to see which way the reading ''skips'', get the ''skip'' the same on both wings. This will be as close a matters in the real world. 

  Shore the wings in several places so no movement is possible during the overnight Redux cure.

   

  Osmosis.... people are confusing Osmosis with Micro Blistering. What will be evident on a painted Epoxy surface is Micro Blistering, where water has got between the paint and the substrate, usually as a result of covering a wet [ water] surface and letting it sweat like a sauna, the moisture has gone through the paint skin and is trapped. Leaving this out in  the sun will usually dry it out. Left uncovered is a better option than covers. Micro Blisters are not a structural issue, merely water sitting on top of the epoxy substrate.

   Cover a car with a non breathing cover, left wet, the same Micro Blistering will occur over a steel substrate. 

  Osmosis [  in the GRP meaning of the word ] is the reaction with chemicals in / on the glass fibres [ usually the PVA binder holding the CSM together] and water, usually within  polyester resin, which turns to acid [ and will smell of vinegar if the bubble is popped.]

   

  My Inspector said ''that's the one with all the Mods''......  working from memory, there were 32 Mods incorporated into the XS Kit by 1996, since then there have been 8 MANDATORY MODS, the rest have been upgrades. Put this into perspective, the Slingsby Firefly has 1200 + mods, wonder how many mods apply to a C150 ?

  The tie bar was introduced to allow the Gross weight to be raised to 1370 lbs, if anyone is happy to have the 1300 lb limit, the tie bar is not required [ nor is it required to change to the swivelling rear sockets.]

  Bit of History, the original G-YURO front wing pins were .75'' long, and there was no top hat stiffener from thigh support to door sill. Pete Clark [bless him] was ''vigorously exploring the flight envelope'', and  pulled a ''bit'' of  G, and the front pin popped out of the socket and rode above said socket. Apart from the ''bang'' which scared the s**t out of Pete and Roger Bull [ who was riding shotgun], nothing else happened, though it took some effort to de rig the wing later.

  A longer front pin [ same length as the flap pin,] and the top hat stiffener cured that. 

  Regarding Inspections, if the Inspector chosen for Permit Renewals only ''knowledge'' of the Europa is ''that's the one with all the Mods'', he probably [ or more likely definitely] isn't the Inspector you need to do the Permit, especially if you are not the builder of the aircraft.

  I once worked on a Europa that the current owner had just bought, with 5 hours flight time since the previous Permit, that had been Inspected by an ''old timer'' Inspector, and there were so many flight safety faults with it, I had to ''dob in'' the Inspector to LaaLaaLand. Turns out he was an expert in Austers and the like, but knew SFA about the Europa. LAA didn't take any action as he had since retired from Inspecting.

  Comparing a C150 with the Europa is pure folly, like comparing a Morris 1000 with  a Ford Focus ST ?

  I have 1.4 hrs in a C150, time I am never going to get back..... wasted...

    

   

  

  

  --

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: Angle of Incidence on a Classic Taildragger Downunder

No, it was definitely the Arplast, the Ivoprop gears stripped when being cycled on the bench ! We never flew it. As I said before, if an Ivoprop was used as a ceiling fan, I wouldn't walk under it without a crash helmet on !

  The Arplast had done the same trick on the ground previously, Roger Sheridan P1, with me shotgun, sitting in front of the hangar at Wombleton, Went Beta and we backed up !

  Alan whatshisname came back to sort it, with bits he had left over from what looked like his R/C helicopter bin, never trusted it , pretty poor engineering.

  Nev

  

  

  --

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