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earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:06 am Post subject: iPad charger?

I have taken a 12V to 110VAC device and used a multiple outlet adapter for power on long trips.  Messy but workable.  Earl



--------

rd2(at)dejazzd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:18 am Post subject: iPad charger?

Eric-

yes, it is a switcher allright, judging by its size. I am going to subject the critter to some harsh testing before I use it on a 24 V bus. It didn't smoke the first time I used it.

The question is how to safely protect equipment these things power - would a fast fuse suffice ?

Wondering if something like ebay item 321224237532 could do the job reliably (need just to add a panel USB receptacle).

Add me please as well to your contact list.

Rumen



---- Eric Page <edpav8r(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 



=============




Rumen:  No worries.  I think I've seen three Erics on the List!  I haven't seen the charger you've got, but I'm sure it's a switcher.  They all are.  Getting enough current at 5V to rapid-charge an iPad through a linear regulator fed with 14V would make an 18-watt heater!



Marvin:  Panel mounted and hard wired is exactly my plan.  Nice, neat installation and zero hassle during use.



Michael and Earl:  Thanks for your interest; I'll add you to my contact list.



Cheers,



Eric



do not archive

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:18 am Post subject: Re: iPad charger?

I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found.



I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month.

5A AVR.pdf

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_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:26 am Post subject: iPad charger?

At 07:10 AM 10/11/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Add me to the list - I already have the panel spot and fuse slot identified.



Is there an 'easy' way to determine externally whether a given 

cheapo or high price cig plug usb charger is the switcher/linear 

regulator type or the type that has some chance of working for 

awhile?  'Easy' being defined as with a multi-meter or perhaps even 

a quick peek inside.


	


    Interesting question. While all the discussion has been

    centered on I-Pad supplies, the problems are not limited

    to the I-Pad. If somebody had told me 10 years ago that

    the whole world will run out of a USB port in the future,

    I would have scoffed.



    But here we are. At first the USB port was a serial data

    specialty connection that just happened to include a

    5VDC source that would support a half-amp or so of

    load by some accessory . . . like a mouse or a keyboard.



    But the mobile phone industry jumped on that 5v source

    as a means by which batteries could be charged. This prompted

    a huge growth in 5v power conditioners from wall-warts,

    cigar-lighter adapters and a boost in power output ratings

    of USB ports on appliances. I have a USB hub on my desktop

    that comes with a 5v, 2A wall wart intended to augment the

    5v, 1/2A capability of the port on the computer.



    Now comes the I-Pad and similar devices with screens that

    need power. Dr. Dee has a Kindle that charges with a 5v

    wall-wart . . . or USB port on a computer . . . but charging

    times are long (6+ hours) and these chargers will not support

    simultaneous charging and operation of the device.



    I found a 5v 2A wall wart that will both charge and power

    her Kindle. The key feature is to identify a power

    source that offers several times the current carrying

    ability of the run-of-the-mill adapters that have served

    us well with mobile phones and MP3 players over the past

    ten years.



    My gut feeling is that the contemporary 5v adapters

    that are failing are simply being taxed beyond their

    design ratings. JUST BECAUSE the thing plugs into

    a USB mini or micro port doesn't mean that it was

    ever intended to supply 5 to 10 watt power demands

    of the new devices.



    I've never seen a cigar lighter adapter where the

    nameplate rating exceeded 600 mA (3 watts). I suspect

    that most are not rated for even that much.



    I have ordered some 5v, 3A current limited, voltage

    regulated step-down converters that will accept up

    to 33 volts of DC input. I'll test these on the bench

    and then craft a project that will offer a row of

    USB connectors (DC power only) and a wide range of

    DC input voltages with the design goal of grunting

    the greater demands of contemporary devices for

    5v power while paying due diligence to noise issues.



    Those who are interested in measuring demands and

    qualifying their adapters could build adapter

    harnesses that would permit a multimeter view of

    both current demand and supply voltage under load.

   Bob . . .

rd2(at)dejazzd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: iPad charger?

Yes Eric, 

the linear 24->19 V  PS you made for me works beautifully.

Rumen



---- "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote: 



=============




I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found.



I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month.



--------

Eric M. Jones

www.PerihelionDesign.com

113 Brentwood Drive

Southbridge, MA 01550

(508) 764-2072

emjones(at)charter.net





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410314#410314





Attachments: 



http://forums.matronics.com//files/5a_avr_850.pdf

earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:00 am Post subject: iPad charger?

Another item to throw into the mix:



The iPad cable is more than 'just' a cable.  If you slide down the sleeve on the connector that plugs into the mini iPad you will find a circuit board containing a bunch of components.  Buying a 'cheap' replacement cord from eBay will probably charge the mini but the new iOS upgrade will pop up a warning message informing you it may not..



The 'wall-mart' 110VAC is not the cause of the warning.. I have tried them from three different suppliers with the same results.  Only the original cord mutes the warning.



I've read somewhere that the charging rate of the iPad is also controlled by the cord.  Buyer beware... 



Earl



    >>Now comes the I-Pad and similar devices with screens that

    need power. Dr. Dee has a Kindle that charges with a 5v

    wall-wart . . . or USB port on a computer . . . but charging

    times are long (6+ hours) and these chargers will not support

    simultaneous charging and operation of the device.

    My gut feeling is that the contemporary 5v adapters

    that are failing are simply being taxed beyond their

    design ratings. JUST BECAUSE the thing plugs into

    a USB mini or micro port doesn't mean that it was

    ever intended to supply 5 to 10 watt power demands

    of the new devices.



    I've never seen a cigar lighter adapter where the

    nameplate rating exceeded 600 mA (3 watts). I suspect

    that most are not rated for even that much.



   Bob . . . <<

edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:55 am Post subject: iPad charger?

That would be my recommendation too.  Get a Y-splitter for your cigarette lighter socket.  Plug the Garmin into one side and a small 110V inverter into the other.  Use the OEM wall-wart USB chargers that came with your portables.  As Earl said, messy but functional.



Eric

On Oct 11, 2013, at 2:02 PM, "earl_schroeder(at)juno.com" <earl_schroeder(at)juno.com> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 

 I have taken a 12V to 110VAC device and used a multiple outlet adapter for power on long trips.  Messy but workable.  Earl

 

 --------

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:50 am Post subject: iPad charger?

Eric

Would it be a simple matter to hook up a couple of USB ports to such a device to be able to charge two iDevices simultaneously?

Sacha



On Oct 11, 2013, at 16:29, <rd2(at)dejazzd.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Yes Eric, 

 the linear 24->19 V  PS you made for me works beautifully.

 Rumen

 

 ---- "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote: 

 

 =============

 

 

 I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found.

 

 I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month.

 

 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410314#410314

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/5a_avr_850.pdf

edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:48 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

On Oct 11, 2013, at 10:49 AM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com (uuccio(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Eric

Would it be a simple matter to hook up a couple of USB ports to such a device to be able to charge two iDevices simultaneously?

Sacha



	


Sadly, no.  The proprietary charging scheme adopted by Apple prevents rapid-charging from a USB port that doesn't follow their standard.  iDevices look for signaling voltages on the USB data pins to indicate available charging current.  Absent those signals, they assume they're attached to a standard USB data port and limit themselves to 500mA (2.5W) -- that is, if they don't give you the dreaded, "Charging is not supported with this accessory" message.  2.5W won't even keep up with usage for an iPad with the screen at full brightness.  The iPad 4 consumes ~8W in this state; the 2-4W of overhead in Apple's 10- and newer 12-watt chargers is left for the battery.  

Eric



 [quote][b]

edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

It's certainly a truism that switchers are noisier than linear regs.  I have a switch-mode horror show in my car to charge my phone.  It makes the AM radio unlistenable when I plug it in!



That said, I've learned through my own product development process just what you suggested: that you *can* make a quiet switcher.  Board layout is critical to the effort.  If the switched node is kept as small as possible -- preferably short and wide -- so as not to create an unintentional antenna, you've won half the battle.  A shielded inductor is a given, and judicious use of snubbers to tame ringing and overshoot bring you closer still.  Most remaining noise can be blocked with carefully tuned filtering (thanks, Bob!).



The main advantage of switchers, of course, is their efficiency: greater than 85% is common.  That means less wasted electrons in capacity-limited applications (admittedly not an issue in a vehicle, as long as the alternator is online) and less heat in many cases.



Eric

On Oct 11, 2013, at 7:18 AM, "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found.

 

 I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month.

 

 --------

 Eric M. Jones

 www.PerihelionDesign.com

 113 Brentwood Drive

 Southbridge, MA 01550

 (508) 764-2072

 emjones(at)charter.net

uuccio(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

 	  Quote: 	
		   iDevices look for signaling voltages on the USB data pins to indicate available charging current.  Absent those signals, they assume they're attached to a standard USB data port and limit themselves to 500mA (2.5W)


	


Yup. What I was wondering is, suppose you have a 5V supply with the right signaling voltages and plenty of power? Does paralleling two USB ports onto its output work to supply two iPads (or an iPad and fast-charge an iPhone) or does one need some kind of circuit to isolate one from the other?

versoelectric(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:01 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Yup. What I was wondering is, suppose you have a 5V supply with the right signaling voltages and plenty of power? Does paralleling two USB ports onto its output work to supply two iPads (or an iPad and fast-charge an iPhone) or does one need some kind of circuit to isolate one from the other?


	




I can't think of any reason paralleling them wouldn't work, assuming you only want to charge Apple devices.  I haven't paralleled the data pins in my design (because I want the ports to be able to charge two different brands of devices simultaneously) but the bulk charging current is shared.



Eric

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: iPad charger?

At 12:00 AM 10/12/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

<versoelectric(at)gmail.com>



On Oct 11, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Sacha <uuccio(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > Yup. What I was wondering is, suppose you have a 5V supply with 

 the right signaling voltages and plenty of power? Does paralleling 

 two USB ports onto its output work to supply two iPads (or an iPad 

 and fast-charge an iPhone) or does one need some kind of circuit to 

 isolate one from the other?

I can't think of any reason paralleling them wouldn't work, assuming 

you only want to charge Apple devices.  I haven't paralleled the 

data pins in my design (because I want the ports to be able to 

charge two different brands of devices simultaneously) but the bulk 

charging current is shared.



Eric


	


    Paralleling the +5 supply does work. That's

    what happens inside your computer. There may

    be some provisions for circuit protection.

    The +5 supply in a computer (the older ones

    at last) can grunt 30 amps . . . real potential

    for smoke of the USB cord's stranding . . .

    typically 26AWG.



    I've poked around on the pins of a I-GO

    universal cigar lighter adapter to see if

    I could deduce why their mini-A connectors

    always keep my Motorola phone happy, but

    some, not all, wall warts do not. It appears

    that one of the USB data lines is tied to

    either 5v or ground through a resistor. I

    forget which now.



    In any case, I don't think ANY of the USB

    powered appliances are looking for any

    'intelligent' connection to their power

    sources . . . a simple bias network of

    some kind keeps the appliance from complaining

    about 'unauthorized' power sources.



   Bob . . .

ronaldcox

Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 38

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: Re: iPad charger?

Has anyone looked into this device?  I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine.  But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory.



Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off.



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1



Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio.



Ron Cox

Glasair is about to fly!

_________________
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:07 am Post subject: Re: iPad charger?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I've made one of these 10-37V input, variable output 5A linear chargers for a customer. I don't like switch mode power supplies where they can be avoided due to the unknowns of RFI/EMI. Better quality switchers CAN be found. 



I might be persuaded to make a run of these in about a month. 	




Hah! And I'll deny I ever said it.



I will bail out of this project for now. A couple other Eric's might have products that will do the job. I've looked into the design and a unit that will do the job at 1500 mA can be made to sell for $100/socket. Considering that the panel mounted USB socket is $10 and the parts come to $50, that's not so bad. There are cheaper ways to go but they are limited in their recharging power, but still suitable for some devices.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

edpav8r(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:35 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

Ron,



Try a simple test to see if you'll be satisfied with this device's in-flight performance:



  - Run the battery in your iPad down a good amount

  - Turn the screen up to full brightness

  - Set the auto-lock so the screen stays on

  - Launch the aviation app you use in flight

  - Connect the iPad to any external GPS/AHRS box you use

  - Set the app to moving map or EFIS mode so it's processing received data

  - Note its battery level, then plug your iPad into this USB outlet



The rise or fall of your iPad's battery level over time will tell you what you need to know.  If you want to be ambitious, run down your cellphone and plug that in at the same time.



Hopefully you've gotten lucky!



Cheers,



Eric



do not archive

On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "ronaldcox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Has anyone looked into this device?  I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine.  But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory.

 

 Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off.

 

 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio.

 

 Ron Cox

 Glasair is about to fly!

 

 --------

 Ron Cox

 Glasair Super II F/T

 Under Construction at C77

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410391#410391

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject: iPad charger?

I certainly would be interested to know the results of that experiment.  Keep us posted! 



M. Haught 

On Oct 12, 2013, at 4:34 PM, Eric Page wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ron,

 

 Try a simple test to see if you'll be satisfied with this device's in-flight performance:

 

  - Run the battery in your iPad down a good amount

  - Turn the screen up to full brightness

  - Set the auto-lock so the screen stays on

  - Launch the aviation app you use in flight

  - Connect the iPad to any external GPS/AHRS box you use

  - Set the app to moving map or EFIS mode so it's processing received data

  - Note its battery level, then plug your iPad into this USB outlet

 

 The rise or fall of your iPad's battery level over time will tell you what you need to know.  If you want to be ambitious, run down your cellphone and plug that in at the same time.

 

 Hopefully you've gotten lucky!

 

 Cheers,

 

 Eric

 

 do not archive

 

 

 On Oct 12, 2013, at 9:41 AM, "ronaldcox" <flyboyron(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone looked into this device?  I've tried it on the bench and it seems to power my iPad mini just fine.  But then most cheapies do, with the attendant iOS ver. 7 warning about it not being a certified accessory.

> 

> Plan to use it in my Glasair panel unless someone warns me off.

> 

> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

> 

> Looks well made, takes 12v input, and looks nice in panel. Doesn't seem to cause a lot of noise in my handheld radio.

> 

> Ron Cox

> Glasair is about to fly!

> 

> --------

> Ron Cox

> Glasair Super II F/T

> Under Construction at C77

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410391#410391

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: Re: iPad charger?

Google: " How to make your own iPad 2 USB charger ". Looks straightforward, but common to many chargers is the current limit which leads to fairly slow battery charge. Still, it's pretty easy to do.



Rox Cox's post of http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 



Seems pretty good and carries good reviews.



Beware if you are years away from flying. USB-3 will be common soon (looks like USB-2 with a blue insert tongue.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:44 am Post subject: iPad charger?

At 12:46 PM 10/13/2013, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Google: " How to make your own iPad 2 USB charger ". Looks 

straightforward, but common to many chargers is the current limit 

which leads to fairly slow battery charge. Still, it's pretty easy to do.



Rox Cox's post of 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082CXEI8/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 




	


   There is a link to a Wikipedia article in the

   comments for this device. See:



http://tinyurl.com/l3krbv7



   The article clears up some of the questions

   about why some devices balk at being conneted

   to just any ol' USB charger and others do not

   seem to care. There's further discussion about

   a device having a conversation with the USB

   host to see if and when a high power mode of

   charging can be negotiated.



   Interesting stuff. I've archived the article

   for further study.



   Bob . . .

ronaldcox

Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 38

Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:34 am Post subject: Re: iPad charger?

Folks, I hope I haven't led anyone astray on my earlier question about this device.  



http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Blue-Sea-Charger-Socket/dp/B00FBQX23A/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1381860353&sr=1-6&keywords=blue+sea+usb



It works well, seems to provide enough juice to power my iPad mini, and all the other stuff I mentioned is true.  But I've decided my characterization of the noise issue isn't so accurate after more testing.



It does put out quite a bit of EMI "hash" that breaks the non-adjustable squelch on my VHF radio, so it's probably not going to find a permanent home in my panel.



I still like the form factor, physical quality, etc., so if one of you Eric's <g> comes up with a good back end for it, I may just use it for the output ports, and gut the electronic end if one of your devices will do a better (electrically quieter) job.



Standing by for either the new one that Eric Page is designing, or a new run of the ones Eric Jones is talking about.



Let me know if/when one of you gets something you want to put out there, either for testing (I'm game) or it's available for sale.



Thanks,

Ron

_________________
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
Under Construction at C77 - Still just about to fly!

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