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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:02 am Post subject: Battery questions

HI Fran.



Having had a regulator failure recently I agree with your message though in my case the capacitor then failed within a few minutes and vented its internals past the windscreen. 

 Just for information if you have the Schicke regulator installed they say that the capacitor is no longer required, also over ten years ago I fitted the overvoltage protection module that was widely mentioned in the Europa Flyer of the time. This actually worked for me and maybe it saved my radio and transponder and other stuff from being damaged .

 



Tim 

G-BZTH



On 20 October 2013 11:22, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>

  

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Hash: SHA1

 

 On 10/19/2013 10:39 PM, Alan Carter wrote:

 

 > But to check the wiring and operation of a working serviceable

 > system, and see it is functioning correctly as per wiring if

 > correctly done, as there is no testing circuit, I guess the only

 > way is to have the engine running and remove on of the battery

 > leads, to check the engine and pumps will solely running on the

 > power from the Alternator. Maybe some one has a better way to check

 > this.

 

 Make sure the capacitor is installed if you do that. Without the

 capacitor, the system may start surging, destroying all running

 avionics in the process.

 

 The capacitor acts as a very tiny battery, just large enough to buffer

 some of the charge, damping out oscillations in the voltage feed back

 system of the "rectifier".

 

 Frans

 

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 ===========

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 [b]

creightonious

Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 40

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:39 am Post subject: Battery Questions

This is an interesting thread.

But we must all keep in mind that the "nominal" 17 amp hours of the Odyssey battery (or of any other) is predicated on a 20 hour discharge rate and has an endpoint of 11volts.

Therefore any discharge rate over one (1) amp will result in a battery capacity of far under 17ah.  At even at a 3 amp discharge rate a fresh Odyssey 17 ah battery will be perilously close to complete discharge after 3 hours.

Food for thought.



Creighton Smith   Classic EFI 912



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Oct 20, 2013, at 3:02 AM, Europa-List Digest Server <europa-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

 

 *

 

 ==================================================

   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

 ==================================================

 

 Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the 

 two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the Digest formatted 

 in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes 

 and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version 

 of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor 

 such as Notepad or with a web browser. 

 

 HTML Version:

 

    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-10-19&Archive=Europa

 

 Text Version:

 

    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-10-19&Archive=Europa

 

 

 ================================================

   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive

 ================================================

 

 

           ----------------------------------------------------------

                           Europa-List Digest Archive

                                      ---

                     Total Messages Posted Sat 10/19/13: 10

           ----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 Today's Message Index:

 ----------------------

 

     1. 03:42 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions  (David Joyce)

     2. 03:56 AM - Re: Classic Centre Console  (spcialeffects)

     3. 04:21 AM - Dummy spars  (spcialeffects)

     4. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: Classic Centre Console  (Carl Pattinson)

     5. 06:42 AM - KEVV - Evansville Indiana EAA Chapter 21 Wings and Wheels this weekend  (Steve Eberhart)

     6. 08:16 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Andrew Sarangan)

     7. 08:43 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (David Joyce)

     8. 08:49 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Richard Wheelwright)

     9. 10:00 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Rob Housman)

    10. 01:39 PM - Re: Battery questions  (Alan Carter)

 

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 1  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 03:42:23 AM PST US

 From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 Subject: Re: Re: Battery questions

 

 

 

 Alan, I work on the assumption that if I keep my Odyssey 

 battery in good nick and replace it before it dies then I 

 should have a significant proportion of the nominal17 amp 

 hrs available when/if the rectifier packs up. The Rotax 

 maintenance manual gives the current demands of the pump 

 as 2 amps at lower pressures rising to 3 at highest 

 pressure. With the ammeter fitted to my plane I can 

 readily see what usage I have as I switch off inessential 

 items. As I remember it when my rectifier packed up over 

 the North Sea the fuel pump took something nearer 2 amps 

 than 3 with radio on as well.

       I wouldn't rely on being able to fly for lots of 

 hours over sea but would be pretty comfortable about 

 flying a few hours over land to get home, rather than put 

 down somewhere totally inconvenient and get stuck until a 

 new rectifier arrived. For glider pilots this is after 

 all, the normal modus operandi, and you get to be fairly 

 relaxed about popping it into a field if your means of 

 staying airborne disappears!

       Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

 

 On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:18:14 -0700

  "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

> <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

> 

> Hi David.

> You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no 

> longer have that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I 

> would have.

> Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all 

> the planes I have flown the engine is entirely separate 

> from the aircrafts electrics and you have just confirmed 

> that with Master off and Alternator off and the a pump 

> and spark keeps the  engine going, or should do.

> So the spark is not influenced by either switch,

> and the pump get it power from either a separate circuit 

> within the Alternator or the battery which will slowly 

> run down.

> Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery 

> and pump only.

> or maybe not?

> We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine 

> will run OK.

> But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure 

> capabilities ??

> 

> Regards 

> Alan

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Un/Subscription,

> Forums!

> Admin.

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 2  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 03:56:44 AM PST US

 Subject: Re: Classic Centre Console

 From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

 

 

 So after much thought I have decided to do mod 24, however I'm abit scared to make

 the first cut of the centre console as it seems to be quite a drastic mod

 to get extra bum room but I am going to do it. I just wanted to ask, before I

 start it, to anyone here who has done this mod if they could post some pictures,

 give any tips but most of all how far into the tunnel did you go? I.e how much

 extra bum space did you achieve. Now the instruction sheet I have says to

 make sure you miss the rudder cables and flap arm but I am looking at doing this

 mod with the bear module so it is easier to lay up the inside so any measurements

 would be appricated. Failing all of that if you are selling an XS module

 please contact me also. Thanks Frank

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410863#410863

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 3  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 04:21:13 AM PST US

 Subject: Dummy spars

 From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

 

 

 If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy I would be very grateful

 as this will allow me to put my fuselage in many more positions within my workshop

 then rigging the wings. Thank Frank

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 4  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 05:09:04 AM PST US

 Subject: Re: Re: Classic Centre Console

 From: Carl Pattinson <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>

 

 

 I don't have a copy of mod 24 to hand but seem to remember the factory method was

 a bit of a "bodge" IMHO which is why we opted for a different solution.  We

 created our LA inserts on the workbench (in the shape of a half kidney) then

 reduxed them onto the hole we had cut in the cockpit module sides - then 4 layers

 of bid inside and outside at the join edges for added strength. 

 

 I would be inclined to leave this as late in the build as possible as you really

 need the swinging arm and tyre in place to get an accurate fit. We got it wrong

 first time around and the tyre jammed in the up position - solved that little

 hitch by fitting a narrower tyre and judicious use of a hot air gun to reform

 the  bulge in the LA inserts.

 

 With hindsight I think it would be possible to construct the innermost bid layer

 of the LA bulge once the wheel was in place. It would then be relatively easy

 (once cured) to bond in the thin foam layer and complete the outside layers

 of bid from outside. If you had access to a vacuum pump you could vacuum mould

 the foam and bid layers onto the original inner layers of glass which would give

 a strong air free structure.

 

 I have some pics somewhere - will try and dig them out.

 

 Carl Pattinson

 G-LABS

 

 

 Sent from my ASUS Pad

 

 spcialeffects <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

 

> 

> So after much thought I have decided to do mod 24, however I'm abit scared to

 make the first cut of the centre console as it seems to be quite a drastic mod

 to get extra bum room but I am going to do it. I just wanted to ask, before I

 start it, to anyone here who has done this mod if they could post some pictures,

 give any tips but most of all how far into the tunnel did you go? I.e how

 much extra bum space did you achieve. Now the instruction sheet I have says to

 make sure you miss the rudder cables and flap arm but I am looking at doing this

 mod with the bear module so it is easier to lay up the inside so any measurements

 would be appricated. Failing all of that if you are selling an XS module

 please contact me also. Thanks Frank

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410863#410863

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 5  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 06:42:43 AM PST US

 From: Steve Eberhart <steve(at)newtech.com>

 Subject: KEVV - Evansville Indiana EAA Chapter 21 Wings and Wheels

 this weekend

 

 

      Our Third Annual Wings and Wheels event is this Saturday

 

 

      We have had over 200 Cruisers at each of our first two Wings and

      Wheels  This year should continue building on our great start. 

      Cruise-In or Fly-In and help us set a new attendance record this year

 

 

      10:00 AM till 3:00 PM Central time.

 

 

      Tri-State Aero (KEVV), Ramp and Parking Lot.

 

 

      Here are some pics of previous Wings and wheels.  Our 2013 Wings

      and Wheels event will be at Tri-State Aero October 19th, 2013.

 

 

      http://www.eaa21.org/WingsandWheels.jpg

 

 

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka1Sg7tmULc

 

      http://www.eaa21.org/coppermine1/thumbnails.php?album=2

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 6  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 08:16:37 AM PST US

 From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>

 Subject: Re: Dummy spars

 

 

 I do have a dummy spar which I have no use for, so I can send it to

 you if needed.

 

 On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend using the dummy spars for

 aligning the spars to the cockpit module. It only takes a fraction of

 a mm misalignment of the bushings to make the pin insertion and

 retraction very stiff.

 

 

> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:20 AM, spcialeffects <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

> 

> If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy I would be very grateful

 as this will allow me to put my fuselage in many more positions within my

 workshop then rigging the wings. Thank Frank

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 7  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 08:43:49 AM PST US

 From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

 Subject: Re: Dummy spars

 

 

 

 Frank, I would advise making your own, lining them up 

 precicely on your wing spars and only doing it when you 

 are ready to use them. If they are made of wood or  most 

 anything non metallic there is a danger of change in 

 humidity altering their dimensions oherwise. Regards, 

 David Joyce, G-XSDJ

 

 On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:15:42 -0400

  Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> <asarangan(at)gmail.com>

> 

> I do have a dummy spar which I have no use for, so I can 

> send it to

> you if needed.

> 

> On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend using the dummy 

> spars for

> aligning the spars to the cockpit module. It only takes 

> a fraction of

> a mm misalignment of the bushings to make the pin 

> insertion and

> retraction very stiff.

> 

> 

> 

> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:20 AM, spcialeffects 

> <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

>> <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

>> 

>> If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy 

>> I would be very grateful as this will allow me to put my 

>> fuselage in many more positions within my workshop then 

>> rigging the wings. Thank Frank

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Read this topic online here:

>> 

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

> 

> Un/Subscription,

> Forums!

> Admin.

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 8  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 08:49:04 AM PST US

 Subject: Re: Dummy spars

 From: "Richard Wheelwright" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk>

 

 

 Frank,

 

   I also recommend using the wings.

 

 I also have a dummy spar you can have (Never Used)

 

 --------

 Richard Wheelwright

 G-IRPW

 First Flight 24th July 2013

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410872#410872

 

 

 ________________________________  Message 9  _____________________________________

 

 

 Time: 10:00:38 AM PST US

 From: "Rob Housman" <rob(at)hyperion-ef.com>

 Subject: RE: Dummy spars

 

 

 I must take exception to the part about "...make the pin insertion and

 retraction very stiff."  In my case the word "impossible" is substituted for

 "stiff."  The "dummy" in dummy spar is the builder who uses it.

 

 

 Best regards,

 

 Rob Housman

 Europa XS A070

 Rotax 914

 Airframe complete

 Avionics a work in progress

 

 --

_________________
Creighton Smith
A 036

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:59 am Post subject: Battery Questions

Creighton, If you look at the Odyssey technical manual for 

the p680 you will find they give 8 hrs for a 2amp 

discharge rate and 5hrs for the 3amp discharge. Perhaps 

what you say applies to ordinary lead acd batteries but 

not to the superior technology of the Odyssey.

Regards, David Joyce, G - XSDJ

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 09:38:58 -0400

  crouton <crouton(at)well.com> wrote:

[quote] 

<crouton(at)well.com>

 

 This is an interesting thread.

 But we must all keep in mind that the "nominal" 17 amp 

hours of the Odyssey battery (or of any other) is 

predicated on a 20 hour discharge rate and has an 

endpoint of 11volts.

 Therefore any discharge rate over one (1) amp will 

result in a battery capacity of far under 17ah.  At even 

at a 3 amp discharge rate a fresh Odyssey 17 ah battery 

will be perilously close to complete discharge after 3 

hours.

Food for thought.

 

 Creighton Smith   Classic EFI 912

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

> On Oct 20, 2013, at 3:02 AM, Europa-List Digest Server 

><europa-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

> 

> *

> 

> ==================================================

>   Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive

> ==================================================

> 

> Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in 

>either of the 

> two Web Links listed below.  The .html file includes the 

>Digest formatted 

> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features 

>Hyperlinked Indexes 

> and Message Navigation.  The .txt file includes the 

>plain ASCII version 

> of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a 

>generic text editor 

> such as Notepad or with a web browser. 

> 

> HTML Version:

> 

>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 13-10-19&Archive=Europa

> 

> Text Version:

> 

>    http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 13-10-19&Archive=Europa

> 

> 

> ================================================

>   EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive

> ================================================

> 

> 

>           ----------------------------------------------------------

>                           Europa-List Digest Archive

>                                      ---

>                     Total Messages Posted Sat 10/19/13: 

>10

>           ----------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

> Today's Message Index:

> ----------------------

> 

>     1. 03:42 AM - Re: Re: Battery questions  (David 

>Joyce)

>     2. 03:56 AM - Re: Classic Centre Console 

> (spcialeffects)

>     3. 04:21 AM - Dummy spars  (spcialeffects)

>     4. 05:09 AM - Re: Re: Classic Centre Console  (Carl 

>Pattinson)

>     5. 06:42 AM - KEVV - Evansville Indiana EAA Chapter 

>21 Wings and Wheels this weekend  (Steve Eberhart)

>     6. 08:16 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Andrew Sarangan)

>     7. 08:43 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (David Joyce)

>     8. 08:49 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Richard Wheelwright)

>     9. 10:00 AM - Re: Dummy spars  (Rob Housman)

>    10. 01:39 PM - Re: Battery questions  (Alan Carter)

> 

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 1 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 03:42:23 AM PST US

> From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> Subject: Re: Re: Battery questions

> 

> 

> 

> Alan, I work on the assumption that if I keep my Odyssey 

> battery in good nick and replace it before it dies then 

>I 

> should have a significant proportion of the nominal17 

>amp 

> hrs available when/if the rectifier packs up. The Rotax 

> maintenance manual gives the current demands of the pump 

> as 2 amps at lower pressures rising to 3 at highest 

> pressure. With the ammeter fitted to my plane I can 

> readily see what usage I have as I switch off 

>inessential 

> items. As I remember it when my rectifier packed up over 

> the North Sea the fuel pump took something nearer 2 amps 

> than 3 with radio on as well.

>       I wouldn't rely on being able to fly for lots of 

> hours over sea but would be pretty comfortable about 

> flying a few hours over land to get home, rather than 

>put 

> down somewhere totally inconvenient and get stuck until 

>a 

> new rectifier arrived. For glider pilots this is after 

> all, the normal modus operandi, and you get to be fairly 

> relaxed about popping it into a field if your means of 

> staying airborne disappears!

>       Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

> 

> On Fri, 11 Oct 2013 15:18:14 -0700

>  "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote:

>> <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

>> 

>> Hi David.

>> You have flown to some wonderful places, Im UK only no 

>> longer have that confidence, when i was in my 20s yes I 

>> would have.

>> Im no expert on the plane never looked into it, but all 

>> the planes I have flown the engine is entirely separate 

>> from the aircrafts electrics and you have just confirmed 

>> that with Master off and Alternator off and the a pump 

>> and spark keeps the  engine going, or should do.

>> So the spark is not influenced by either switch,

>> and the pump get it power from either a separate circuit 

>> within the Alternator or the battery which will slowly 

>> run down.

>> Rotax must say somewhere how long you have on battery 

>> and pump only.

>> or maybe not?

>> We know with the Master and Alternator off the engine 

>> will run OK.

>> But with a serviceable system how do I check its failure 

>> capabilities ??

>> 

>> Regards 

>> Alan

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Read this topic online here:

>> 

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410354#410354

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> Un/Subscription,

>> Forums!

>> Admin.

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 2 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 03:56:44 AM PST US

> Subject: Re: Classic Centre Console

> From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

> 

> 

> So after much thought I have decided to do mod 24, 

>however I'm abit scared to make

> the first cut of the centre console as it seems to be 

>quite a drastic mod

> to get extra bum room but I am going to do it. I just 

>wanted to ask, before I

> start it, to anyone here who has done this mod if they 

>could post some pictures,

> give any tips but most of all how far into the tunnel 

>did you go? I.e how much

> extra bum space did you achieve. Now the instruction 

>sheet I have says to

> make sure you miss the rudder cables and flap arm but I 

>am looking at doing this

> mod with the bear module so it is easier to lay up the 

>inside so any measurements

> would be appricated. Failing all of that if you are 

>selling an XS module

> please contact me also. Thanks Frank

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410863#410863

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 3 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 04:21:13 AM PST US

> Subject: Dummy spars

> From: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

> 

> 

> If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy 

>I would be very grateful

> as this will allow me to put my fuselage in many more 

>positions within my workshop

> then rigging the wings. Thank Frank

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 4 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 05:09:04 AM PST US

> Subject: Re: Re: Classic Centre Console

> From: Carl Pattinson <carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk>

> 

> 

> I don't have a copy of mod 24 to hand but seem to 

>remember the factory method was

> a bit of a "bodge" IMHO which is why we opted for a 

>different solution.  We

> created our LA inserts on the workbench (in the shape of 

>a half kidney) then

> reduxed them onto the hole we had cut in the cockpit 

>module sides - then 4 layers

> of bid inside and outside at the join edges for added 

>strength. 

> 

> I would be inclined to leave this as late in the build 

>as possible as you really

> need the swinging arm and tyre in place to get an 

>accurate fit. We got it wrong

> first time around and the tyre jammed in the up position 

>- solved that little

> hitch by fitting a narrower tyre and judicious use of a 

>hot air gun to reform

> the  bulge in the LA inserts.

> 

> With hindsight I think it would be possible to construct 

>the innermost bid layer

> of the LA bulge once the wheel was in place. It would 

>then be relatively easy

> (once cured) to bond in the thin foam layer and complete 

>the outside layers

> of bid from outside. If you had access to a vacuum pump 

>you could vacuum mould

> the foam and bid layers onto the original inner layers 

>of glass which would give

> a strong air free structure.

> 

> I have some pics somewhere - will try and dig them out.

> 

> Carl Pattinson

> G-LABS

> 

> 

> Sent from my ASUS Pad

> 

> spcialeffects <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

> 

>> 

>> So after much thought I have decided to do mod 24, 

>>however I'm abit scared to

> make the first cut of the centre console as it seems to 

>be quite a drastic mod

> to get extra bum room but I am going to do it. I just 

>wanted to ask, before I

> start it, to anyone here who has done this mod if they 

>could post some pictures,

> give any tips but most of all how far into the tunnel 

>did you go? I.e how

> much extra bum space did you achieve. Now the 

>instruction sheet I have says to

> make sure you miss the rudder cables and flap arm but I 

>am looking at doing this

> mod with the bear module so it is easier to lay up the 

>inside so any measurements

> would be appricated. Failing all of that if you are 

>selling an XS module

> please contact me also. Thanks Frank

>> 

>> 

>> Read this topic online here:

>> 

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410863#410863

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 5 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 06:42:43 AM PST US

> From: Steve Eberhart <steve(at)newtech.com>

> Subject: KEVV - Evansville Indiana EAA 

>Chapter 21 Wings and Wheels

> this weekend

> 

> 

>      Our Third Annual Wings and Wheels event is this 

>Saturday

> 

> 

>      We have had over 200 Cruisers at each of our first 

>two Wings and

>      Wheels  This year should continue building on our 

>great start. 

>      Cruise-In or Fly-In and help us set a new 

>attendance record this year

> 

> 

>      10:00 AM till 3:00 PM Central time.

> 

> 

>      Tri-State Aero (KEVV), Ramp and Parking Lot.

> 

> 

>      Here are some pics of previous Wings and wheels. 

> Our 2013 Wings

>      and Wheels event will be at Tri-State Aero October 

>19th, 2013.

> 

> 

>      http://www.eaa21.org/WingsandWheels.jpg

> 

> 

>      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka1Sg7tmULc

> 

>      http://www.eaa21.org/coppermine1/thumbnails.php?album=2

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 6 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 08:16:37 AM PST US

> From: Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: Dummy spars

> 

> 

> I do have a dummy spar which I have no use for, so I can 

>send it to

> you if needed.

> 

> On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend using the dummy 

>spars for

> aligning the spars to the cockpit module. It only takes 

>a fraction of

> a mm misalignment of the bushings to make the pin 

>insertion and

> retraction very stiff.

> 

> 

>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:20 AM, spcialeffects 

>><spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

>> 

>> If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy 

>>I would be very grateful

> as this will allow me to put my fuselage in many more 

>positions within my

> workshop then rigging the wings. Thank Frank

>> 

>> 

>> Read this topic online here:

>> 

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 7 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 08:43:49 AM PST US

> From: "David Joyce" <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>

> Subject: Re: Dummy spars

> 

> 

> 

> Frank, I would advise making your own, lining them up 

> precicely on your wing spars and only doing it when you 

> are ready to use them. If they are made of wood or  most 

> anything non metallic there is a danger of change in 

> humidity altering their dimensions oherwise. Regards, 

> David Joyce, G-XSDJ

> 

> On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:15:42 -0400

>  Andrew Sarangan <asarangan(at)gmail.com> wrote:

>> <asarangan(at)gmail.com>

>> 

>> I do have a dummy spar which I have no use for, so I can 

>> send it to

>> you if needed.

>> 

>> On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend using the dummy 

>> spars for

>> aligning the spars to the cockpit module. It only takes 

>> a fraction of

>> a mm misalignment of the bushings to make the pin 

>> insertion and

>> retraction very stiff.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 7:20 AM, spcialeffects 

>> <spcialeffects(at)aol.com> wrote:

>>> <spcialeffects(at)aol.com>

>>> 

>>> If anyone has a set of dummy spars I could borrow or buy 

>>> I would be very grateful as this will allow me to put my 

>>> fuselage in many more positions within my workshop then 

>>> rigging the wings. Thank Frank

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> Read this topic online here:

>>> 

>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410864#410864

>> 

>> Un/Subscription,

>> Forums!

>> Admin.

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 8 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 08:49:04 AM PST US

> Subject: Re: Dummy spars

> From: "Richard Wheelwright" <rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co.uk>

> 

> 

> Frank,

> 

>   I also recommend using the wings.

> 

> I also have a dummy spar you can have (Never Used)

> 

> --------

> Richard Wheelwright

> G-IRPW

> First Flight 24th July 2013

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410872#410872

> 

> 

> ________________________________  Message 9 

> _____________________________________

> 

> 

> Time: 10:00:38 AM PST US

> From: "Rob Housman" <rob(at)hyperion-ef.com>

> Subject: RE: Dummy spars

> 

> 

> I must take exception to the part about "...make the pin 

>insertion and

> retraction very stiff."  In my case the word 

>"impossible" is substituted for

> "stiff."  The "dummy" in dummy spar is the builder who 

>uses it.

> 

> 

> Best regards,

> 

> Rob Housman

> Europa XS A070

> Rotax 914

> Airframe complete

> Avionics a work in progress

> 

> --

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:52 am Post subject: Battery Questions

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1



On 10/20/2013 04:59 PM, David Joyce wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Creighton, If you look at the Odyssey technical manual for the p680

 you will find they give 8 hrs for a 2amp discharge rate and 5hrs

 for the 3amp discharge.


	


This is for optimum conditions:

1) Perfect temperature

2) Perfect charge state

3) Fresh battery



In reality you can't count on the advertised capacity.

1) In cold weather the battery capacity can easily be 50% of the

advertised capacity. Elevated temperatures (like under the cowling)

are detrimental as well.

2) A full charge van only be obtained when charging with at least 14.5

Volts. My experience with the Rotax "rectifier" is that it tapers of

at around 13.7 Volts. This is good for battery life, but it means you

will roughly only get 70% of the capacity.

Furthermore, the startup sequence can consume quit some capacity, and

it takes a while to recharge this loss. If you get the engine failure

soon after the take off, the recharging might not have been completed.

Last but not least quite some capacity can get lost between the time

of the alternator failure and the pilot taking appropriate action. If

a "low voltage" warning is your first sign of trouble, it means you

have trouble indeed because the battery has already given away most of

its precious amp-hours.

3) Batteries age. Some people keep the battery for 4 years or longer.

Much of the capacity is gone by then, but you won't notice a thing

until you really need it. Voltage does not sag due to aging, and

starting will remain as usual. As soon as starting capacity is

noticably going down, you have lost about 90% of the capacity.



It might be a good thing to measure the capacity of the battery once a

year. Put on the fuel pump and a few other necessities, and measure

how much time it takes before you hit 11 Volts.

Note that such a run down test is bad for the battery but if you do

that only once a year it doesn't matter too much.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Perhaps what you say applies to ordinary lead acd batteries but not

 to the superior technology of the Odyssey.


	


It is still a lead acid battery and all the physics apply to it

nevertheless.



Anyway, I wouldn't count on an advertised capacity; I would land as

soon as possible if the battery is the only current source to keep the

fuel pump going.



Frans



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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:23 am Post subject: Battery Questions

Frans, As always there is much in what you say, but an 

Odyssey is a gas recombinant lead acid battery and has 

many characteristics quite different from conventional 

lead acid batteries, such as the ability to withstand many 

cycles of deep discharge, to have a significantly longer 

life, to work normally at very cold temperatures and more 

specifically to charge to 97% on a voltage of just 13.5v 

and to retain 80% of its rated capacity until the end of 

its useful life.

        None of that of course makes it a good idea to be 

in the habit of flying around assuming that it will keep 

the pumps going for hours!

Regards, David

On Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:50:31 +0200

  Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

<frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

 

 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Hash: SHA1

 

 On 10/20/2013 04:59 PM, David Joyce wrote:

 

> Creighton, If you look at the Odyssey technical manual 

>for the p680

> you will find they give 8 hrs for a 2amp discharge rate 

>and 5hrs

> for the 3amp discharge.

 

 This is for optimum conditions:

 1) Perfect temperature

 2) Perfect charge state

 3) Fresh battery

 

 In reality you can't count on the advertised capacity.

 1) In cold weather the battery capacity can easily be 

50% of the

 advertised capacity. Elevated temperatures (like under 

the cowling)

 are detrimental as well.

 2) A full charge van only be obtained when charging with 

at least 14.5

 Volts. My experience with the Rotax "rectifier" is that 

it tapers of

 at around 13.7 Volts. This is good for battery life, but 

it means you

 will roughly only get 70% of the capacity.

Furthermore, the startup sequence can consume quit some 

capacity, and

 it takes a while to recharge this loss. If you get the 

engine failure

 soon after the take off, the recharging might not have 

been completed.

 Last but not least quite some capacity can get lost 

between the time

 of the alternator failure and the pilot taking 

appropriate action. If

 a "low voltage" warning is your first sign of trouble, 

it means you

 have trouble indeed because the battery has already 

given away most of

 its precious amp-hours.

 3) Batteries age. Some people keep the battery for 4 

years or longer.

 Much of the capacity is gone by then, but you won't 

notice a thing

 until you really need it. Voltage does not sag due to 

aging, and

 starting will remain as usual. As soon as starting 

capacity is

 noticably going down, you have lost about 90% of the 

capacity.

 

 It might be a good thing to measure the capacity of the 

battery once a

 year. Put on the fuel pump and a few other necessities, 

and measure

 how much time it takes before you hit 11 Volts.

 Note that such a run down test is bad for the battery 

but if you do

 that only once a year it doesn't matter too much.

 

> Perhaps what you say applies to ordinary lead acd 

>batteries but not

> to the superior technology of the Odyssey.

 

 It is still a lead acid battery and all the physics 

apply to it

 nevertheless.

 

 Anyway, I wouldn't count on an advertised capacity; I 

would land as

 soon as possible if the battery is the only current 

source to keep the

 fuel pump going.

 

Frans

 

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Un/Subscription,

Forums!

Admin.

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:36 am Post subject: Battery Questions

This is an issue I've spent a lot of time on recently as I endeavor to ensure safe flight following an alternator failure in my totally electrically dependent MPEFI engine. Much of that time has been spent on the AeroElectric-list (at) matronics which I've found to be an excellent source of information...particularly for one who is an electrical neophyte. 



One of the things I've learned is that a battery's (available) cranking power says nothing about it's ability to provide sustained power when there's a significant load. Don't assume that just because it could start the engine it has an ample reserve of amps to be drawn upon.



In my case, the total draw of fuel pump, ECU, fuel injectors, and coils is between 10 and 11 amps...add to that the draw for minimal components on an endurance bus (intercom, xpndr, some minimal cockpit lighting, etc.).



At this point as I continue to refine a basic circuitry diagram, among other things, I will have 2 Odyssey 680s wired as one, and will replace one at some interval (either annually, bi-annually, or at some interval as experience dictates) in order to raise the level of probability that alternator failure will be a low pucker factor event.



..on this misty morning, a pair of bald eagles taunt me over the sea beyond my kitchen window,



Fred

klinefelter.kevin(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:22 pm Post subject: Battery Questions

Atta Boy Fred,

I went with a second alternator on the 914 and one PC680. I have our Subaru Legacy fitted with a PC680, so when I pull the battery every two years out of the Europa, it goes in the car for two years. Just about the time the car seems to crank a little slower in cold weather, it's two years are up.

 Kevin 



On Oct 21, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 This is an issue I've spent a lot of time on recently as I endeavor to ensure safe flight following an alternator failure in my totally electrically dependent MPEFI engine. Much of that time has been spent on the AeroElectric-list (at) matronics which I've found to be an excellent source of information...particularly for one who is an electrical neophyte. 

 

 One of the things I've learned is that a battery's (available) cranking power says nothing about it's ability to provide sustained power when there's a significant load. Don't assume that just because it could start the engine it has an ample reserve of amps to be drawn upon.

 

 In my case, the total draw of fuel pump, ECU, fuel injectors, and coils is between 10 and 11 amps...add to that the draw for minimal components on an endurance bus (intercom, xpndr, some minimal cockpit lighting, etc.).

 

 At this point as I continue to refine a basic circuitry diagram, among other things, I will have 2 Odyssey 680s wired as one, and will replace one at some interval (either annually, bi-annually, or at some interval as experience dictates) in order to raise the level of probability that alternator failure will be a low pucker factor event.

 

 ...on this misty morning, a pair of bald eagles taunt me over the sea beyond my kitchen window,

 

 Fred

f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:41 am Post subject: Battery questions

          At the risk of sounding the Old Man Bell, may I support Fred, Frans, Kevin and David in their suggestions on care and feeding of batteries?

            The F-86 had four hydraulic systems mainly because one is never enough. Without suitable hydraulic power, the Sword became a lawn dart as there was no direct physical connection with the flight controls. The engine produced preferred hydraulic pressure, the battery a back-up.

            The word was - if you must reduce demand from or shut down the engine, the battery would produce sufficient power to operate one system and get you back to the bar in good order. With this puerile acceptance we wheeled and spun about the blue. 

            One day, a thinking Engineering Officer cranked a Sword up on orange boxes and sat aboard with only the battery, gear retracted, wheeling and dealing with abandon. Of course there was no resistance from moving the flight controls in the air at speed, but it lasted four and a half minutes. Even supersonic dives couldn’t get you on the runway before she froze.

            In those days there was no hacking of the web, so everything was done by telephone. Don’t tell the drivers - so alternate circumstances grounded each machine until new batteries were tested and installed. I still think about this, sixty-five years later.

            Mind the battery.

Ferg

 [quote][b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: Battery questions

Love it Ferg...thanks...Fred



do not archive



On Oct 22, 2013, at 6:43 AM, <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca (f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca)> <f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca (f.kyle(at)sympatico.ca)> wrote:

[quote]            At the risk of sounding the Old Man Bell, may I support Fred, Frans, Kevin and David in their suggestions on care and feeding of batteries?

[b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Battery questions

Hi All.

Went flying today first time for a couple of weeks.

Tested out a few things, on the 914.

Master Switch OFF, Alternator On, engine kept running,

Alternator OFF, Master ON, engine kept running, Ammeter 11.9

Both OFF, engine kept running ,Alternator providing spark, then later stopped starved of fuel.

I must say even sitting on the ground when the engine quit it was alarming, I was under the impression it was the same as the spark, with its own little separate circuitry that would keep one pump going regardless of switch position.

Having seen 11.9 volts on battery with everything turned off , I think I would make for the nearest airfield, Anyone every done a test on this, Obviously it will depend on how good you battery is, so a middle of the road figure would be useful.

Regards.

Alan

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