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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:29 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Not much interest on the YAK List on THIS topic I am sure, but .... oh well.
Some might get a smile from this ....
In reply to Mark Davis:
> If it was used on the ICAP with the analog Doppler nav computer, my
normal response to a call of "Steering's good" from the ECMO in the right
seat was "Is that steering to East or West Jesus?" : )
AOA was indeed used to correct Impact Air on the nav solution on that model.
However, you're right ... the Doppler was not all that reliable, especially over
water. Until we got our first INS on the Prowler, NAV was pretty darn
primitive.
| Quote: | I developed an exceptionally good seat of the pants dead reckoning ability
working blue water ops.
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Yes, TACAN and RADAR were also helpful, assuming you were not EMCOM
and you had someone who could make that RADAR actually work. The one
you flew had it's roots in the APQ-92 first flown on the A-6A. (APQ-129)
| Quote: | My ECMOs finally learned to see if the steering needle was
reasonably close to the nose before they suggested I follow their nav
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solution. Smooth sea states and any altitude over 15,000' over land made
the system pretty unreliable. Add that to a ship that never radiated any
navaids or radars the ALQ-99 could sort out as part of the battle group, it
made it interesting finding your way back to Mother at times!
Sounds like the USS Midway in the Gulf to me!  Anyway......
I had an interesting experience at MCAS Yuma the other day, and the older
military pilots that read this list might get a chuckle out of this. I build jammers
as a hobby, that.... and because I am slightly evil. Anyone who enjoys jamming
cell phones has to be slightly devious. In any case, I built a GPS jammer in order
to test some things at work, etc. Some gents, including the C.O., mentioned that
our particular GPS was "jam resistant". REALLY? Says I. Bar bets started being made.
Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". The point of this?
Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6 aircrew
with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR (yeah we have that now
too ) fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system, and
TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. Neither jet would launch
without GPS.
How things have changed.
Mark
p.s, I was in Iraq a few years back and we managed to uninterntionally jam our own GPS
while flying a mission. The ECMO got back and complained that without the GPS working,
the INS drifted. "Really?" I replied. Imagine that.
--
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:08 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". The point of this?
Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6 aircrew
with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR (yeah we have that now
too ) fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system, and
TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. Neither jet would launch
without GPS.
How things have changed.
|
I know. It is downright scary just how fast we are moving toward single-source nav based on something as easily jammed as GPS. It is good to see the LORAN-C signals reappearing for testing and new modulation being tested on WWVB. It may mean that someone has gotten religion and we may have a good, multi-source, jam-resistant, area-navigation system on the horizon. The Europeans had the right idea when they proposed to use LORAN-C as the WAAS distribution and backup for Galileo, their version of GPS. Too bad it never materialized.
About 10 years back I was at Tailhook and was able to actually hold a Soviet GPS jammer, one of the ones that were being sold on the black market for about $4000(us). It was about the size of a 3x5 card file box as I recall. I have this life-sized picture of some ass-hat taking one to the top of Mt. Wilson overlooking the LA basin on some dark and stormy night after the FAA shuts down all the VORTACs and taking out all the GPS nav. Won't everyone be surprised then!
And speaking of GPS jamming, I have had GPS just go away while feet-wet over the Atlantic. Both my panel mount and my handheld GPS's were saying, "Satellites? What satellites!" I was left with two choices: DR and ADF. Fortunately there was a high-power NDB at my fuel stop (Great Inagua) that I was able to track outbound after my fuel stop. 45 minutes into my outbound leg both receivers miraculously came back on-line at the same time. Jamming? Selective availability? Dunno. But it was both annoying and sobering. People think my insistance on having a good ADF in the airplane is silly but I still find it quite useful once I leave the borders of the lower 48.
And people are starting to throw away perfectly good KR-87s. I just picked up an extra for $100!
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
[quote][b]
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Still off topic, read no further if you don't want to read another sea
story.
I launched off of the Carl Vinson approximately 700 miles southeast of the
Big Island with a TARPS Tomcat to look for an I Hawk site on Lanai as part
of an exercise. Ship in EMCON as well as any Airwing aircraft within 50
miles. Got topped off with gas outbound, but wouldn't have enough gas to
get back to Mother without hitting Texaco again. Got to Lanai, I Hawk site
not radiating, headed home. Mission E-2 to help us get home went down, so
they triple cycled the airborne Hummer. He got short on gas and had to
recover, so no E-2 airborne, leaving me with no nav except the Tomcat's INS.
We were high for best fuel burn. For some unexplainable reason the Tomcat
decided to drop down to the lower altitude we were supposed to meet the A-6
tanker at. The ship wasn't radiating anything and wouldn't answer on any
frequencies even though I told them in the blind that we were critical on
fuel. I finally raised our sister A-6 squadron on their squadron tactical
frequency, got the tanker crew talking and got them headed on a reciprocal
steer toward me, then got an air to air ADF/TACAN cut to sweeten the steer.
I got a tally first on him at my 11:00 and called his turn for a left 180
and told him to get his basket out. I plugged him with 800 pound remaining
well over 150 miles from the Carl Vinson. (For those unfamiliar with a
Prowler, cruise fuel burn is 100 lbs./min.) I'd had my crew clean up their
junk, tighten harnesses and discussed over water ejection procedures and
water survival. I was rather cranky in the mission debrief for the
decision makers that made a peacetime Rule Of Engagement that nearly put an
$80 million dollar jet and crew in the Pacific.
As for the crews that wouldn't launch without GPS, I would rate their
mission ready capability as unacceptable, as would a generation of
Dauntless, Avenger, Hellcat, etc. pilots that had nothing but a wet compass,
stop watch, a navigation board under the instrument and a pair of eyeballs
to judge the winds from the sea state (when you could see it).
Mark Davis
--
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rmhou(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Hi Brian,
Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to put into trash.
Robin
--- On Sun, 7/29/12, Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Brian Lloyd <brian(at)lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: GPS and AOA
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, July 29, 2012, 9:06 AM
It is good to see the LORAN-C signals reappearing for testing
|
[quote][b]
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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On Sunday, July 29, 2012, Robin Hou wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Brian,
Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
|
I don't have any information about the future. I know that one of the transmitters is back on-the-air for testing. I am hoping that this pressages a new LORAN system.
| Quote: | I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to put into trash.
|
I am with you that the Northstar M-1 is one of the best LORAN-C receivers ever produced.
Still, the new signal may not be compatible with old LORAN receivers. Also, in their infinite wisdom, they are continuing to tear down the old LORAN antennas even though it appears they are working on a new system. This means that the new transmitter locations will change the geometry and hence the programming of the old receivers.
So, please don't hold your breath that LORAN will come back anytime soon or that existing receivers will work with the new system. But we can hope that the experiments are a demonstration that someone is actually thinking out there.
[quote][b]
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Considering that cyberwar with the Chinese and Iranians has already started, I'd bet LORAN will be coming back. You can't jam it with a computer virus.
On 7/29/2012 5:27 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
[quote]
On Sunday, July 29, 2012, Robin Hou wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Brian,
Do you have more information about the future of Loran-C?
|
I don't have any information about the future. I know that one of the transmitters is back on-the-air for testing. I am hoping that this pressages a new LORAN system.
| Quote: | I still have 2 Northstar M-1's that I just don't have the heart to put into trash.
|
I am with you that the Northstar M-1 is one of the best LORAN-C receivers ever produced.
Still, the new signal may not be compatible with old LORAN receivers. Also, in their infinite wisdom, they are continuing to tear down the old LORAN antennas even though it appears they are working on a new system. This means that the new transmitter locations will change the geometry and hence the programming of the old receivers.
So, please don't hold your breath that LORAN will come back anytime soon or that existing receivers will work with the new system. But we can hope that the experiments are a demonstration that someone is actually thinking out there.
[b]
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ShayneThill
Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: GPS and AOA |
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[quote="brian(at)lloyd.com"]On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E <mark> wrote:
| Quote: | Next day, two Prowlers went down on launch for "NO GPS". �The point of this?
Well besides winning the bet, the point was here were two jets, with 6 aircrew
with fully operational TACAN, fully operational VOR �(yeah we have that now
too ) �fully operational RADAR, fully operational ALQ-218 system, and
TWO fully operational Ring Laser Inertial Systems. �Neither jet would launch
without GPS.�
How things have changed.
|
I know. It is downright scary just how fast we are moving toward single-source nav based on something as easily jammed as GPS. It is good to see the LORAN-C signals reappearing for testing and new modulation being tested on WWVB. It may mean that someone has gotten religion and we may have a good, multi-source, jam-resistant, area-navigation system on the horizon. The Europeans had the right idea when they proposed to use LORAN-C as the WAAS distribution and backup for Galileo, their version of GPS. Too bad it never materialized.
About 10 years back I was at Tailhook and was able to actually hold a Soviet GPS jammer, one of the ones that were being sold on the black market for about $4000(us). It was about the size of a 3x5 card file box as I recall. I have this life-sized picture of some ass-hat taking one to the top of Mt. Wilson overlooking the LA basin on some dark and stormy night after the FAA shuts down all the VORTACs and taking out all the GPS nav. Won't everyone be surprised then!�
And speaking of GPS jamming, I have had GPS just go away while feet-wet over the Atlantic. Both my panel mount and my handheld GPS's were saying, "Satellites? What satellites!" I was left with two choices: DR and ADF. Fortunately there was a high-power NDB at my fuel stop (Great Inagua) that I was able to track outbound after my fuel stop. 45 minutes into my outbound leg both receivers miraculously came back on-line at the same time. Jamming? Selective availability? Dunno. But it was both annoying and sobering. People think my insistance on having a good ADF in the airplane is silly but I still find it quite useful once I leave the borders of the lower 48.�
And people are starting to throw away perfectly good KR-87s. I just picked up an extra for $100!
--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
No private should allowed to buy GPS jammer. I once heard that a New Jersey driver who installed a gps jammer in his car affect the aviation system in his town. That is dangerous.
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Last edited by ShayneThill on Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:12 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Shayne,
As much as I would love to reply regarding the topic of what people should (or should not) be allowed to buy, build, test, or operate, I have to say that it is pretty far out on the fringe as a topic for the YAK LIST. Thus everyone will be glad to know that I have resisted the temptation!
That said, the thrust of this topic was to make people aware how dangerous it is to rely on a "single-source nav based on something as easily jammed as GPS", (Quote: Brian Lloyd) and that is still a very valid fact.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Good reason to carry the low-tech "HHM" with you at all times... even if it may be a little outdated.
(HHM=Hand Held Map)
Jon Blake
jblake207(at)comcast.net
From: "Mark G CIV NAVAIR Bitterlich, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 12:10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Re: GPS and AOA
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Shayne,
As much as I would love to reply regarding the topic of what people should (or should not) be allowed to buy, build, test, or operate, I have to say that it is pretty far out on the fringe as a topic for the YAK LIST. Thus everyone will be glad to know that I have resisted the temptation!
That said, the thrust of this topic was to make people aware how dangerous it is to rely on a "single-source nav based on something as easily jammed as GPS", (Quote: Brian Lloyd) and that is still a very valid fact.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:23 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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All stories concerning illegal jamming are merely fiction and are told for reasons of personal entertainment.
Of course I am sure you knew that anyway.
That said, the Marine Corps EA-6B Prowlers have a saying: "If you can turn it on, we can turn it off".
Mark
--
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:01 am Post subject: Re: GPS and AOA |
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Absolutely, that goes without saying! If someone could make things like those in your stories I would be really impressed!
S/F
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:51 am Post subject: GPS and AOA |
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Hmmm...if that is so...PLEEZZZZZ... Turn the Bastard's Teleprompter and bully microphone off! Also ground AF One!
Just kidding...
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 4, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
All stories concerning illegal jamming are merely fiction and are told for reasons of personal entertainment.
Of course I am sure you knew that anyway.
That said, the Marine Corps EA-6B Prowlers have a saying: "If you can turn it on, we can turn it off".
Mark
--
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: GPS and AOA |
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"Like"
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