 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
 |
|
At 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
Hi,
I read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders had their starter
contractor weld shut.
I am using a Cole Hersee
24047 http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's
what Lancair supplies)
Would it be worth upgrading to a Lamar
X61-0030 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php ?
Make current would go from 750 to 900A and Break current from 100 to 300A
Thanks for your insight!
Happy Thanksgiving,
Giorgio
---------------------------------------------
With all due respect to a staid ol' supplier
of electro-whizzies, this particular 'intermittent
duty' contactor was never well suited to use as a
starter contactor.
RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions of the
Model 70 contactor are also available in an
intermittent duty version (higher coil current
and somewhat enhanced closure forces). Cessna
use to use the intermittent duty versions too on
the starter side . . . . wayyyyyy back when.
The "problem" is centered around the design
of contacts . . .
----------------------------------------------
The Cole-Hersee device is in the same family of contactors as
the 70 Series White-Rogers devices designed for continuous duty,
high carry-current and the switching of moderate loads.
http://tinyurl.com/koq788n
Here's an 'exploded view' for this class of contactor
http://tinyurl.com/mjndr93
Note the massive moving contact with LARGE area, hence LOW PRESSURE
footprint against the stationary contacts. This design will CARRY
lots of current but bounces like a golf ball. Especially vulnerable
to the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat inductive loads . . . like
starter motors.
http://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j
http://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj
Nice stationary contacts integrated with fat-wire studs . . .
http://tinyurl.com/k5674y9
"REAL" starter contactors have features unique to a device
specifically designed for intermittent duty switching of
large loads loads.
http://tinyurl.com/mmvkmeh
http://tinyurl.com/kcme565
Note the light weight moving contact with very small footprint
against the stationary contacts . . . very low mass . . . very
little bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE.
http://tinyurl.com/lgsmf77
Again, stationary contacts are integral with fat-wire studs.
http://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4
Note evidence of small area, high pressure mating of movable and
stationary contacts . . .
http://tinyurl.com/krnf3n5
http://tinyurl.com/k582728
I am surprised to know that Lancair is offering that Cole-Hersee
product for this application. I did a weekend seminar at Lancair
some years back and we talked about characteristics of the two
kinds of contactors in some detail. The 'real' starter contactor
was a prominent character in the relays/switches/contactors segment
of the seminar.
Feel free to forward this email to the Lancair-List and even
directly to Lancair. The problems associated with mis-application
of this particular C-H contactor were predictable . . . but easy
to fix.
Cole-Hersee has a 'later' design that MIGHT be better
suited to task than the current selection
http://tinyurl.com/mxer975
But the architecture appears to be an evolution of the earlier
designs . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if this
device exploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low mass,
high pressure contacts.
I would suggest that the Lancair community consider replacing
the existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533
starter contactor with built in diode suppression.
http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa
Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . .
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:59 pm Post subject: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
|
|
Bob,
I have googled a fair amount but have been unable to find a real spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533. I find random references to a coil-suppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifically describes the solenoid & diode. You'd think with such a popular device the spec sheet would be easier to find. Do you have one?
I have one of these solenoids and when I energize the coil w/ a jumper wire I get more arcing when I remove the coil lead than I see on other solenoids where I have installed a suppression diode. It's not a very conclusive test but it is possible that my solenoid does not have a diode.
Also, that solenoid also has an "I" terminal that could be used to light a "starter engaged" light.
-Jeff
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: Giorgio Cagliero <gc5000(at)gmail.com>; aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 10:05 AM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
Hi,
I read on the Lancair mail list that a few builders had their starter contractor weld shut.
I am using a Cole Hersee 24047 http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/183/24047/ (that's what Lancair supplies)
Would it be worth upgrading to a Lamar X61-0030 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/solenoidx610030.php ?
Make current would go from 750 to 900A and Break current from 100 to 300A
Thanks for your insight!
Happy Thanksgiving,
Giorgio
---------------------------------------------
With all due respect to a staid ol' supplier
of electro-whizzies, this particular 'intermittent
duty' contactor was never well suited to use as a
starter contactor.
RMB/Stancore/White-Rogers evolutions of the
Model 70 contactor are also available in an
intermittent duty version (higher coil current
and somewhat enhanced closure forces). Cessna
use to use the intermittent duty versions too on
the starter side . . . . wayyyyyy back when.
The "problem" is centered around the design
of contacts . . .
----------------------------------------------
The Cole-Hersee device is in the same family of contactors as
the 70 Series White-Rogers devices designed for continuous duty,
high carry-current and the switching of moderate loads.
http://tinyurl.com/koq788n
Here's an 'exploded view' for this class of contactor
http://tinyurl.com/mjndr93
Note the massive moving contact with LARGE area, hence LOW PRESSURE
footprint against the stationary contacts. This design will CARRY
lots of current but bounces like a golf ball. Especially vulnerable
to the ravages of high-inrush, somewhat inductive loads . . . like
starter motors.
http://tinyurl.com/mqpd92j
http://tinyurl.com/mtshbmj
Nice stationary contacts integrated with fat-wire studs . . .
http://tinyurl.com/k5674y9
"REAL" starter contactors have features unique to a device
specifically designed for intermittent duty switching of
large loads loads.
http://tinyurl.com/mmvkmeh
http://tinyurl.com/kcme565
Note the light weight moving contact with very small footprint
against the stationary contacts . . . very low mass . . . very
little bounce . . . much higher PRESSURE.
http://tinyurl.com/lgsmf77
Again, stationary contacts are integral with fat-wire studs.
http://tinyurl.com/kaqevb4
Note evidence of small area, high pressure mating of movable and stationary contacts . . .
http://tinyurl.com/krnf3n5
http://tinyurl.com/k582728
I am surprised to know that Lancair is offering that Cole-Hersee
product for this application. I did a weekend seminar at Lancair
some years back and we talked about characteristics of the two
kinds of contactors in some detail. The 'real' starter contactor
was a prominent character in the relays/switches/contactors segment
of the seminar.
Feel free to forward this email to the Lancair-List and even
directly to Lancair. The problems associated with mis-application
of this particular C-H contactor were predictable . . . but easy
to fix.
Cole-Hersee has a 'later' design that MIGHT be better
suited to task than the current selection
http://tinyurl.com/mxer975
But the architecture appears to be an evolution of the earlier
designs . . . without taking one apart, I cannot tell if this
device exploits the quantum leap in performance offered by low mass,
high pressure contacts.
I would suggest that the Lancair community consider replacing
the existing C-H device with something more like the SS598/1533
starter contactor with built in diode suppression.
http://tinyurl.com/pee3msa
Designed for this task, works good, lasts a long time . . .
Bob . . . ar's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts p://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.nbsp; -Matt Dralle, List As such nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<; http://forums.=====================
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
|
|
At 03:57 PM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob,
I have googled a fair amount but have been unable to find a real
spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533. I find random references to a
coil-suppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifically
describes the solenoid & diode. You'd think with such a popular
device the spec sheet would be easier to find. Do you have one?
|
No . . . but if the diode is included, it will
be noted on the base-plate. Here's the bottom
view photo of the ebay offering
http://tinyurl.com/klumbjp
You can see the words "diode suppressed"
stamped onto the bottom surface.
| Quote: | I have one of these solenoids and when I energize the coil w/ a
jumper wire I get more arcing when I remove the coil lead than I see
on other solenoids where I have installed a suppression diode. It's
not a very conclusive test but it is possible that my solenoid does
not have a diode.
|
Add one outside. Two diodes is not bad;
no diodes not so good . . .
| Quote: | Also, that solenoid also has an "I" terminal that could be used to
light a "starter engaged" light.
|
Yes, the I terminal is intended to bypass a Kettering
coil resistor to offer better spark during cranking.
I'm not aware of any other use of this terminal . . .
but you are correct, it provides a +output that could
drive the warning light.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jluckey(at)pacbell.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
|
|
Does anyone have any quality control feedback for the EBay units Bob references. $9.95 is a very low price and I worry that these are cheap Chinese knock-offs.
I see in several Ford truck forums that there are many complaints about cheap Chinese parts. Most people in the Ford forums suggest going w/ Motorcraft/OEM parts at around $30.
Is there any way to tell the difference between the cheapos & the real thing??
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Cole-Hersee relay sticks
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>
At 03:57 PM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Bob,
I have googled a fair amount but have been unable to find a real spec sheet for the SS598 or SW1533. I find random references to a coil-suppression diode but not a real spec sheet that specifically describes the solenoid & diode. You'd think with such a popular device the spec sheet would be easier to find. Do you have one?
|
No . . . but if the diode is included, it will
be noted on the base-plate. Here's the bottom
view photo of the ebay offering
http://tinyurl.com/klumbjp
You can see the words "diode suppressed"
stamped onto the bottom surface.
| Quote: | I have one of these solenoids and when I energize the coil w/ a jumper wire I get more arcing when I remove the coil lead than I see on other solenoids where I have installed a suppression diode. It's not a very conclusive test but it is possible that my solenoid does not have a diode.
|
Add one outside. Two diodes is not bad;
no diodes not so good . . .
| Quote: | Also, that solenoid also has an "I" terminal that could be used to light a "starter engaged" light.
|
Yes, the I terminal is intended to bypass a Kettering
coil resistor to offer better spark during cranking.
I'm not aware of any other use of this terminal . . .
but you are correct, it provides a +output that could
drive ; * The Builder's Bookstore www.homebuisp; * Race Consulting
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:35 pm Post subject: Cole-Hersee relay sticks |
|
|
At 11:42 PM 11/28/2013, you wrote:
| Quote: | Does anyone have any quality control feedback for the EBay units Bob
references. $9.95 is a very low price and I worry that these are
cheap Chinese knock-offs.
|
What are the perceived risks? Starter contactors are generally not
strong drivers for safety of flight issues.
| Quote: | I see in several Ford truck forums that there are many complaints
about cheap Chinese parts. Most people in the Ford forums suggest
going w/ Motorcraft/OEM parts at around $30.
Is there any way to tell the difference between the cheapos & the real thing??
|
Not real sure what 'the real thing' would be.
I have taken some not-so-good examples of this
contactor apart . . . there were observable
differences . . . but I would be hard pressed
to tell you that these parts would not deliver
many YEARS of service on a vehicle that might
get cranked fewer times per year than your
car does in a month.
Obviously, price alone is not a fair indicator
of robustness and suitability to task. You
could go to a Ford dealership parts counter and
purchase a form-fit-function out of their inventory
but I wouldn't bet that it was going to be US
manufactured. It's less likely to be a really
poor specimine . . . those guys deal with local
customers.
Bob . . .
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
