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mougellionel(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Hi Vic ,
Could you tell a bit more about the Polish option ? Is that a possibility to base the aircraft elsewhere like in UK for me for example ? The CAA here is as many other authorities , long, expensive and no much common sense ... They are talking also to rise the cost from april , only "project" is coming from the LAA to transfer the Yak 52 under their supervision .
I'm quite interested to hear what's going on in Poland as like many other countries over there , their feelings with aviation are a bit more ... let's developed.
Thanks, happy landings
Lio
Le 12 févr. 2013 à 15:45, Vic <vicmolnar(at)aol.com> a écrit :
| Quote: |
Hello,
EASA has issued a modified SAS 095 in February for the 18 T reducing the "lifetime" from 5000 hours to 3500. Even though the Smolensk factory says 7000 hours !!! So who is right ??? I can imagine who the guy is at EASA responsible for this B.S. . Does anybody have an idea what the TO-1000 or -2000 checks mean as shown in the Smolensk pages ? I will try to contact Yakovlev to get their view of things.
As 52s and other Yaks except 18 T, 54 and 55, never had a certification so don´t expect to obtain unlimited flying in Europe or America (experimental). You will have a Permit to Fly to be accepted by each NAA whenever you cross borders. Some Yaks have returned to Lithuanian reg, some gone to San Marino in Italy, and there is an attractive solution in Poland now, all to EASA standards. New cerificates have been issued now for 18 Ts in the German register after dereg from LY, no limitations but no commercial use. So maybe you might try an intermediate registration elsewhere and force French CAA later to accept an "official" dereg from there to have a new French Permit to Fly to EASA standards then.
Vic
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/products/SAS-aircraft.php
http://www.smaz.ru/eng/avia/services.php#jak18
http://www.smaz.ru/eng/avia/jak18t.php
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394140#394140
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William Halverson
Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:05 am Post subject: European registration/certification |
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How bizarre ... why do these various agencies think their opinions carry
more weight than the factory? Is this about liability and insurance?
If an a/c is inspected by a A/P against the manufacturer's standards,
what difference does it make what nation the inspection happens in?
On 2/12/2013 7:45 AM, Vic wrote:
| Quote: |
Hello,
EASA has issued a modified SAS 095 in February for the 18 T reducing the "lifetime" from 5000 hours to 3500. Even though the Smolensk factory says 7000 hours !!! So who is right ??? I can imagine who the guy is at EASA responsible for this B.S. . Does anybody have an idea what the TO-1000 or -2000 checks mean as shown in the Smolensk pages ? I will try to contact Yakovlev to get their view of things.
As 52s and other Yaks except 18 T, 54 and 55, never had a certification so don´t expect to obtain unlimited flying in Europe or America (experimental). You will have a Permit to Fly to be accepted by each NAA whenever you cross borders. Some Yaks have returned to Lithuanian reg, some gone to San Marino in Italy, and there is an attractive solution in Poland now, all to EASA standards. New cerificates have been issued now for 18 Ts in the German register after dereg from LY, no limitations but no commercial use. So maybe you might try an intermediate registration elsewhere and force French CAA later to accept an "official" dereg from there to have a new French Permit to Fly to EASA standards then.
Vic
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/products/SAS-aircraft.php
http://www.smaz.ru/eng/avia/services.php#jak18
http://www.smaz.ru/eng/avia/jak18t.php
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394140#394140
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: Re: European registration/certification |
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Correction :
No Yak 54 or 55 but Sukhois 29 and 31 are cared for by EASA SAS rules 093 and 094 :
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/products/SAS-aircraft.php
Lio, please contact me vicmolnar att aol point comm
Vic
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:17 am Post subject: European registration/certification |
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The situation with certification/maintenance of the 18 T in Europe is quite
complex.
We had previously agreed with the European governing body, EASA, that the 18
T would have an "initial life" before overhaul of 5000 hours. However
responsibility for all light aircraft certification changed, and the new
person involved decided to speak to Yakovlev in Moscow to see what their "
official" view was.
The reply was that all 18 T needed a TOTAL overhaul every 1000 hours. So
this means complete disassembly done to the last component; everything to be
overhauled and then the aircraft reassembled as a new one. This is of course
traditional Russian procedure, and acceptable when they were trying to keep
300 million people employed, but absurd in the context of Western use and
accepted maintenance practice.
After quite a lot of effort we have persuaded Yakolev to accept a rather
less stringent alternative of a maintenance programme based on detailed
checks at 1000 and 2000 hour intervals. Nevertheless, as originally
published by Yakovlev, these are still, in my view, unnecessary demanding,
and so we are discussing the details to see if they can be modified, while
still retaining the same safety element.
I think you are wrong to suggest that there are "attractive solutions" in
other countries. The whole point about EASA is that, for good or bad, they
control aviation in Europe, and have established these specific maintenance
programs for the 18 T, and individual country authorities do not have the
ability to modify these at their discretion.
Of course, historically, most of these 18Ts were flown on the Russian
register. Some 12 years ago we obtained full certification in Hungary, this
being before the establishment of EASA, so most 18 Ts are registered there,
while a number continued with Russian registration. However most, if not all
countries are refusing to accept Russian registration, and, as yet some
countries have not worked out how to accept them under the EASA system. This
is why some countries are issuing temporary "permits to fly" while this is
being sorted out.
Frankly it is not a great situation, and Americans should feel extremely
lucky about their freedoms in these areas.
Richard Goode
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
--
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bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: European registration/certification |
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wont last long, regulations are coming, including fees for flying, soon we will be like the europeans
regards to richard
andres
From: Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Re: European registration/certification
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>
The situation with certification/maintenance of the 18 T in Europe is quite
complex.
We had previously agreed with the European governing body, EASA, that the 18
T would have an "initial life" before overhaul of 5000 hours. However
responsibility for all light aircraft certification changed, and the new
person involved decided to speak to Yakovlev in Moscow to see what their "
official" view was.
The reply was that all 18 T needed a TOTAL overhaul every 1000 hours. So
this means complete disassembly done to the last component; everything to be
overhauled and then the aircraft reassembled as a new one. This is of course
traditional Russian procedure, and acceptable when they were trying to keep
300 million people employed, but absurd in the context of Western use and
accepted maintenance practice.
After quite a lot of effort we have persuaded Yakolev to accept a rather
less stringent alternative of a maintenance programme based on detailed
checks at 1000 and 2000 hour intervals. Nevertheless, as originally
published by Yakovlev, these are still, in my view, unnecessary demanding,
and so we are discussing the details to see if they can be modified, while
still retaining the same safety element.
I think you are wrong to suggest that there are "attractive solutions" in
other countries. The whole point about EASA is that, for good or bad, they
control aviation in Europe, and have established these specific maintenance
programs for the 18 T, and individual country authorities do not have the
ability to modify these at their discretion.
Of course, historically, most of these 18Ts were flown on the Russian
register. Some 12 years ago we obtained full certification in Hungary, this
being before the establishment of EASA, so most 18 Ts are registered there,
while a number continued with Russian registration. However most, if not all
countries are refusing to accept Russian registration, and, as yet some
countries have not worked out how to accept them under the EASA system. This
is why some countries are issuing temporary "permits to fly" while this is
being sorted out.
Frankly it is not a great situation, and Americans should feel extremely
lucky about their freedoms in these areas.
Richard Goode
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
--
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:15 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Richard, I thought Yalolev no longer existed....
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tigeryak18t
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:43 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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I spoke today with french CAA about the 18T and the problem as Richard
is saying is a european problem So if we don't find a solution with
this mamouth EASA we will have to register our 18T out of Europe
(Albania????) and hope that our local authorities accept a permit to
fly.
Let us speak with our local authorities and help Richard in his
negociation with EASA
It could be a good time to stick all very very close together all
YAK18T proprietor in Europe. Or forget to fly an 18T in Europe.
What a shame this EASA!!!
Let us try to buid something with our local CAA and hope that this
will help in the negociation with EASA
Good luck Richard we are with you
Didier
2013/2/12 Vic <vicmolnar(at)aol.com>:
--
____________________________
Didier BLOUZARD
Directeur Général DATEXIS
Portable : +33 6 51 84 48 02
Email: didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com
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Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:24 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Used the same logic with an NFO that flew with my during the winter time.
They wore so many clothes that they could hardly walk to climb into the jet.
I wore my flight suit and took off my jacket before I got into the airplane.
He asked me what my survival plan was if we had to punch out. I told him I
planned on shooting him with my pencil flares and just use his shit. Never
did tell him I wasn't serious.....
---
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: European registration/certification |
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Salu Didier,
there are more issues about new registrations than just troubles with EASA. Basically the new procedures of continued airworthiness are to be found here for 18 Ts from last week :
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/products/SAS-aircraft.php
The reduction of "lifetime" from 5000 to 3500 hours is EASA induced. But the national authorities are another matter : Even though EASA gives clear advice for fresh regs the NAA have their own funny ideas how to waste time not to set to work. As I said above there are two 18 Ts fresh on the German reg after LY reg , completely EASA conform, unlimited , not just PtF, but certainly no commercial use. We try to get German reg but after an LY reg there was a FLA period for our Yak so we are having a war with them still.
Vic
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:33 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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We do, Richard but our current socialist in chief is trying to take that away.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 12, 2013, at 2:13 PM, "George Coy" <george.coy(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
Richard, I thought Yalolev no longer existed....
--
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Interesting computer issues today. Hit reply to another note and the reply
was sent to another. Maybe a little MMO is in order for this computer......
Mark
---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:38 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Mark not sure I'm following the logic of this injected in this thread but I'm laughing my ass off! I can see the expression on that dudes' face!
rOFLMAO!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 12, 2013, at 5:21 PM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:
[quote]
Used the same logic with an NFO that flew with my during the winter time. They wore so many clothes that they could hardly walk to climb into the jet. I wore my flight suit and took off my jacket before I got into the airplane. He asked me what my survival plan was if we had to punch out. I told him I planned on shooting him with my pencil flares and just use his shit. Never did tell him I wasn't serious.....
---
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:58 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Somehow hit reply to a friend's note and the reply went to this thread.
I've spent all day fighting computer problems. I'm about to go home and fix
a drink of MMO, 100LL and take up smoking!
As for my curious NFO he soon learned not to ask me questions he didn't want
to hear the answer! Always best to keep them guessing.
Mark
---
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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:52 pm Post subject: European registration/certification |
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Copy. Now that was "pretty funny. I don't care who you are!"
Boring night in LA in a blinding rain!
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 12, 2013, at 6:56 PM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:
[quote]
Somehow hit reply to a friend's note and the reply went to this thread. I've spent all day fighting computer problems. I'm about to go home and fix a drink of MMO, 100LL and take up smoking!
As for my curious NFO he soon learned not to ask me questions he didn't want to hear the answer! Always best to keep them guessing.
Mark
---
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: European registration/certification Yak-52 in France ... |
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Yak-52 in France - Russian aircraft in France ex RA-xxxK (Yak-52, Yak-50, Yak-18T, Yak-55, 54 ... also Sukhoi, Su-29, 31).
======================================================================================
Dear Didier,
The French CAA - DGAC - OSAC in France is trying to find a 'solution' for Russian aircraft in France ...
I don't think going to court will help ...
http://forums.matronics.com//files/iacono_pinon_dgac_appar_158.jpg
They are UK and Lithuanian registered Yaks flying in France ...
so I guess that is an option ...
Below you can read a small text 'La saga des avions russes en France'.
Indeed I think common sense must prevail and European countries should agree on Common Standards
to maintain and operate Yaks (Russian aircraft) in Europe.
I have said this MANY TIMES before 
http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight_international_yak_52_issues_original_363.pdf
http://www.emagazine.flightinternational.com/1Z4dd63f96463e4012.cde/page/downloadPDF.php?id=14895&pages=497523
EASA has a few 'things' for Russian aircraft ...
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification/faq/general-aviation-FAQ.php#11
SPECIFIC AIRWORTHINESS SPECIFICATION (SAS) !
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For the Sukhoi-29 :
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/docs/sas/A.093/EASA%20SAS%20A%20093%20Su-29%20Iss%203.pdf
For the Su-31 :
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/docs/sas/A.094/EASA%20SAS%20A%20094%20Su-31%20iss%203.pdf
And for your aircraft Didier : the Yak-18T :
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/docs/sas/A.095/EASA%20SAS%20A%20095%20Yak-18T_Issue%205.pdf
So as long as your aircraft complies with this EASA SAS, I don't see any reasons why the French CAA (DGAC)
would not issued you a Restricted C.of A.,
Certificat De Navigabilité ou CDN 'restreint'. SORTED.
The French CAA - OSAC seems to be struggling with the Yak-50 and especially the Yak-52.
Vic is right ... Life time extensions (YDB) is a nightmare for Yaks ...
It is bad for the Yak-18T (3500 hours):
http://easa.europa.eu/certification/docs/sas/A.095/EASA%20SAS%20A%20095%20Yak-18T_Issue%205.pdf
A lot worst for the Yak-52 (600 hours):
http://www.yakuk.com/MPD1998-017R5.pdf
And terrible for the Yak-50 (300 hours) :
http://www.yakuk.com/MPD2002-009R1.pdf
Anyway ...
The UK CAA has established a system to organise the maintenance of Yaks.
Maybe the French CAA (DGAC-OSAC) could use this existing system to organise the issue of Certificat de Navigabilité (CDN restreint)
or 'Laissez passez de navigation' to issue their own CONSIGNE DE NAVIGABILITÉ for the Yak-52.
I have attached a copy of the UK CAA documents issued by the UK CAA for the Yak-52. Maybe it can help.
Good luck,
Etienne.
http://forums.matronics.com/files/img_6467_photo_flying_days_zoersel_18_augustus_2012_frank_etienne_stephen_890.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com/files/2010_05_15_tom_houquet_10_942.jpg
http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46362
http://ukga.com/images/content/image29581.jpg
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_________________
Yak-50 Display Pilot - Airshows - Яковлев Як-50
Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
https://www.yakoteam.com/
https://www.yakovlevs.com/the-team/pilots-and-crew/ |
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: Re: European registration/certification |
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Another French document ...
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Délivrance et renouvellement des laissez-passer des avions anciennement RA-xxxK..pdf |
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:12 pm Post subject: European registration/certification -French documents YAK-52 |
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European registration/certification -French documents YAK-52 DGAC - OSAC
==================================================
Ex RA-xxxK
http://www.regles-osac.com/OSAC/fascicules.nsf/b2916504c56ce9d0c12566c0005a60d0/2de871a35eec6a22c1257b1f004ada1e/$FILE/P2219IA.pdf
DEMANDE DE LAISSEZ-PASSER « ex RA-xxxK » : Download ci-dessous.
Bonne semaine.
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Etienne Verhellen
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:25 am Post subject: Re: European registration/certification |
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Click here for latest on Registration.
European registration and airworthiness issues (14th December 2013).
===================================================
Hello Richard,
I see you have updated your website today ... Friday 13 December 2013
http://www.russianaeros.com/Registration%20issue.htm
(New Page 1 - dated ... 14th December 2013).
You are absolutely right when you write :
'there is ABSOLUTELY NO UNIFORMITY as to how these non-certificated aircraft - Yaks - are handled in Europe'.
What a shame !
I hope you are right when you write :
'I believe that Yaks are now able to fly in all EU countries,
albeit subject to different aviation frameworks in the different countries of Europe ...'
BUT ... for example, some German/Belgian/French/Dutch/Swiss/Italian/British/Spanish/Italian/Polish pilots
have their Yaks registered in Lithuania (LY -xxx), Poland (SP-xxx), England (G-xxxx), Spain (EC-xxx),
France (F-AZxx or F-WR ... F-HRxx), Dutch (PH-xxx) ... or even San Marino ... ! (T7-xxx) ... !!!
http://www.caa-mna.sm/registered_aircraft.php
They are not allowed to fly freely everywhere in Europe ...
And that's a real shame !!
Airworthiness of EASA Annex II (= NON EASA aircraft !!) are controlled on a national basis and ... in an ideal world ...
would logically be recognised by other EASA members of course !
Not obvious at the moment I'm afraid ...
Wouldn'it be nice if ALL European National Aviation Authorities (EASA)
agreed on common standards to maintain and operate Yaks (and other flying machines) in Europe !!
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification/faq/general-aviation-FAQ.php#11
http://forums.matronics.com//files/flight_international_yak_52_issues_original_363.pdf
Isn’t it FINALLY about time all European National Aviation Authorities agreed on common standards
to maintain and operate Yaks in Europe
Is it too much to ask ?
Maybe one day ... one never knows ...
In the meantime I will continue to fly my UK CAA registered Yak-52 (G-CBSS) everywhere in Europe
because the UK CAA were the first European NAA to establish very strict maintenance requirements
and that these comply with the requirements of the Yakovlev Design Bureau (YDB) regarding Airframe, Powerplant, etc ...
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=Yak-52
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=Yak-50
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=Yak-18
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=Yak%20C.11
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=Yak-3
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=YAKP
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=PFKD
...
My Yak-52 is based in Belgium but I regularly fly in France with no problem with the French CAA (DGAC).
I have even been controlled by the French 'Air Police' BGTA (Brigade de Gendarmerie Transport Aérien) and they were happy with everything ...
But now we are planning to buy a French Registered Yak-50 ...
Will I be able to fly in the UK ?
We'll see. 
Cheers, Etienne.
http://forums.matronics.com/files/g_cbss_yak_52_zoersel_11_180812_116.jpg
http://fanairplane.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=15649
http://fanairplane.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=15648
http://m8.i.pbase.com/g1/60/43760/2/146113478.wDacpLqQ.jpg
http://m8.i.pbase.com/g2/60/43760/2/146788728.zbf8HiHc.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/fournier/image/146113628
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_________________
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Yak-52 training anywhere - FI(A) Aerobatic Instructor - Specialised Yak-52.
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