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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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I guess by now a number of yawl have heard that I trashed my M-14p several weeks back. I have an electric oil tank shutoff valve that I normally close at engine shutdown. On start up, I close a switch which opens the valve and completes the electrical circuit to open the air solenoid. Well after 1,800+ hours, it didn’t work. We were doing a memorial missing man flight, and I got distracted during the start and neglected to note oil pressure after start. I got the green light that indicated the valve was open, and of course the engine started fine. However 5 minutes later after taxiing to the run-up area, I notice that I could not get power to check my prop governor. At first I thought I had lost just the governor and I called the flight lead that I was dropping out. As I turned the airplane to head for the hangar, the engine made a funny sound, that made me look at the oil pressure gage. It read zero of course and I shut down the mags immediately. Too late of course.
At present the engine is at Barretts in Tulsa and may be fixed by June. A couple guys who have the same valve that I had have asked me to take it apart figure what happened. First of all the valve would not work on further tests. It was stuck in the closed position but would open manually HOWEVER with a good deal of resistant. I could operate the switch in the cockpit which would show normal indications, but the valve would move. And yes the engine was making medal.
I disassembled the valve motor, and separated it from the valve itself. The valve by itself operated smoothly, however the motor body did not. When I disassembled the motor body, the little electric motor itself seem to turn smoothly.
There are 3 sections of gears above the motor, that seem be designed to increase the torque of that tiny motor. When I separated those sections, I could not find any damaged teeth on the two lower sections and they themselves seemed OK. However the upper section cannot be seen or checked because of its location. This is also the section that moves 2 micro switches via a rocker arm arrangement. What I found here was 2 things. One, one of the micro switches was not working at all. And two, the gearing section seem to be binding intermittently. Though I can not see into that area, I suspect some kind of damage there nor can I determine its cause.
This valve assembly had 1,800+ hours on it. I was under the impression that the closed position of the valve, would prevent the engine from ever being started and that the green light confirmed the valve was open. Not so on both counts.
In the end, the ONE time (although there may have been others) I didn’t check the oil pressure after starting, is the time it failed.
So be warned this valve setup is not fail safe or idiot proof. The same thing happened to Craig Payne, and like him, I’m going to add a big red low oil pressure light, dead center of the panel. I’ll put a pressure switch on the inlet side of the external oil filter. I’d advise you guys/gals with the same set up to do the same.
My plans right now waiting for my engine, is do some major cockpit refurbishment and clean-up. Along with a bunch of other stuff, I’ve never had time for and wanted to do. I’ll still get plenty of flying (the Collings B-24 and Storch) that not a problem. But I do love to fly my CJ on those acro flights at sunset and will miss it - - - for a while.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
[quote][b]
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune Pappy, but I'm glad you didn't have an in flight failure and you caught it on the ground.
It does say a lot about keeping things simple though. The more systems you add to anything, the more susceptible you are to a failure . It's probably why the Chinese after over 50 years of manufacture have pretty much kept the design unchanged.
Companies have armies of full time engineers, dedicated full time to designing, testing, and re-designing systems long before they are released into production. Imagine our surprise when we experience a failure with our home brew concoctions, despite several hours of trouble free service during ideal conditions.
I remember some advise shared with me several years back, he said, "Ernie... every time you mess with your airplane, you become a Test Pilot".
The man who shared that prophetic bit of wisdom with me was Jimmy Leeward.
Ernie
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:53 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I guess by now a number of yawl have heard that I trashed my M-14p several weeks back. I have an electric oil tank shutoff valve that I normally close at engine shutdown. On start up, I close a switch which opens the valve and completes the electrical circuit to open the air solenoid. Well after 1,800+ hours, it didnt work. We were doing a memorial missing man flight, and I got distracted during the start and neglected to note oil pressure after start. I got the green light that indicated the valve was open, and of course the engine started fine. However 5 minutes later after taxiing to the run-up area, I notice that I could not get power to check my prop governor. At first I thought I had lost just the governor and I called the flight lead that I was dropping out. As I turned the airplane to head for the hangar, the engine made a funny sound, that made me look at the oil pressure gage. It read zero of course and I shut down the mags immediately. Too late of course.
At present the engine is at Barretts in Tulsa and may be fixed by June. A couple guys who have the same valve that I had have asked me to take it apart figure what happened. First of all the valve would not work on further tests. It was stuck in the closed position but would open manually HOWEVER with a good deal of resistant. I could operate the switch in the cockpit which would show normal indications, but the valve would move. And yes the engine was making medal.
I disassembled the valve motor, and separated it from the valve itself. The valve by itself operated smoothly, however the motor body did not. When I disassembled the motor body, the little electric motor itself seem to turn smoothly.
There are 3 sections of gears above the motor, that seem be designed to increase the torque of that tiny motor. When I separated those sections, I could not find any damaged teeth on the two lower sections and they themselves seemed OK. However the upper section cannot be seen or checked because of its location. This is also the section that moves 2 micro switches via a rocker arm arrangement. What I found here was 2 things. One, one of the micro switches was not working at all. And two, the gearing section seem to be binding intermittently. Though I can not see into that area, I suspect some kind of damage there nor can I determine its cause.
This valve assembly had 1,800+ hours on it. I was under the impression that the closed position of the valve, would prevent the engine from ever being started and that the green light confirmed the valve was open. Not so on both counts.
In the end, the ONE time (although there may have been others) I didnt check the oil pressure after starting, is the time it failed.
So be warned this valve setup is not fail safe or idiot proof. The same thing happened to Craig Payne, and like him, Im going to add a big red low oil pressure light, dead center of the panel. Ill put a pressure switch on the inlet side of the external oil filter. Id advise you guys/gals with the same set up to do the same.
My plans right now waiting for my engine, is do some major cockpit refurbishment and clean-up. Along with a bunch of other stuff, Ive never had time for and wanted to do. Ill still get plenty of flying (the Collings B-24 and Storch) that nota problem. But I do love to fly my CJ on those acro flights at sunset and will miss it - - - for a while.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
| Quote: |
et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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picko
Joined: 20 Nov 2013
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:04 am Post subject: My bad day. |
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Nice epitaph
" I got distracted"
Hmmm dont blame the valve old son.
We all forget stuff !
Al
Sent from Alspad.
On 27/01/2014, at 12:21 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune Pappy, but I'm glad you didn't have an in flight failure and you caught it on the ground.
It does say a lot about keeping things simple though. The more systems you add to anything, the more susceptible you are to a failure . It's probably why the Chinese after over 50 years of manufacture have pretty much kept the design unchanged.
Companies have armies of full time engineers, dedicated full time to designing, testing, and re-designing systems long before they are released into production. Imagine our surprise when we experience a failure with our home brew concoctions, despite several hours of trouble free service during ideal conditions.
I remember some advise shared with me several years back, he said, "Ernie... every time you mess with your airplane, you become a Test Pilot".
The man who shared that prophetic bit of wisdom with me was Jimmy Leeward.
Ernie
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:53 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
I guess by now a number of yawl have heard that I trashed my M-14p several weeks back. I have an electric oil tank shutoff valve that I normally close at engine shutdown. On start up, I close a switch which opens the valve and completes the electrical circuit to open the air solenoid. Well after 1,800+ hours, it didn’t work. We were doing a memorial missing man flight, and I got distracted during the start and neglected to note oil pressure after start. I got the green light that indicated the valve was open, and of course the engine started fine. However 5 minutes later after taxiing to the run-up area, I notice that I could not get power to check my prop governor. At first I thought I had lost just the governor and I called the flight lead that I was dropping out. As I turned the airplane to head for the hangar, the engine made a funny sound, that made me look at the oil pressure gage. It read zero of course and I shut down the mags immediately. Too late of course.
At present the engine is at Barretts in Tulsa and may be fixed by June. A couple guys who have the same valve that I had have asked me to take it apart figure what happened. First of all the valve would not work on further tests. It was stuck in the closed position but would open manually HOWEVER with a good deal of resistant. I could operate the switch in the cockpit which would show normal indications, but the valve would move. And yes the engine was making medal.
I disassembled the valve motor, and separated it from the valve itself. The valve by itself operated smoothly, however the motor body did not. When I disassembled the motor body, the little electric motor itself seem to turn smoothly.
There are 3 sections of gears above the motor, that seem be designed to increase the torque of that tiny motor. When I separated those sections, I could not find any damaged teeth on the two lower sections and they themselves seemed OK. However the upper section cannot be seen or checked because of its location. This is also the section that moves 2 micro switches via a rocker arm arrangement. What I found here was 2 things. One, one of the micro switches was not working at all. And two, the gearing section seem to be binding intermittently. Though I can not see into that area, I suspect some kind of damage there nor can I determine its cause.
This valve assembly had 1,800+ hours on it. I was under the impression that the closed position of the valve, would prevent the engine from ever being started and that the green light confirmed the valve was open. Not so on both counts.
In the end, the ONE time (although there may have been others) I didn’t check the oil pressure after starting, is the time it failed.
So be warned this valve setup is not fail safe or idiot proof. The same thing happened to Craig Payne, and like him, I’m going to add a big red low oil pressure light, dead center of the panel. I’ll put a pressure switch on the inlet side of the external oil filter. I’d advise you guys/gals with the same set up to do the same.
My plans right now waiting for my engine, is do some major cockpit refurbishment and clean-up. Along with a bunch of other stuff, I’ve never had time for and wanted to do. I’ll still get plenty of flying (the Collings B-24 and Storch) that nota problem. But I do love to fly my CJ on those acro flights at sunset and will miss it - - - for a while.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
[b]
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:52 am Post subject: My bad day. |
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I am sorry to hear about Pappy's "bad day". The external oil shut off valve has always been a "band-aide" for the real problem, which is the internal valve in the oil pump. Jill at M14P has proven this to be the problem with oil draining into the engine after shutdown and even published an article in the Red Star magazine a couple of years ago, with photos and drawings, illustrating the problem. Basically, when the internal valve does not close after shut down, the oil can continue to drain into the engine due to head pressure. Any external oil shut off valve only masks the real problem.
Dennis
From: Al Pickering <alpick(at)live.com.au>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: My bad day.
Nice epitaph
" I got distracted"
Hmmm dont blame the valve old son.
We all forget stuff !
Al
Sent from Alspad.
On 27/01/2014, at 12:21 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune Pappy, but I'm glad you didn't have an in flight failure and you caught it on the ground.
It does say a lot about keeping things simple though. The more systems you add to anything, the more susceptible you are to a failure . It's probably why the Chinese after over 50 years of manufacture have pretty much kept the design unchanged.
Companies have armies of full time engineers, dedicated full time to designing, testing, and re-designing systems long before they are released into production. Imagine our surprise when we experience a failure with our home brew concoctions, despite several hours of trouble free service during ideal conditions.
I remember some advise shared with me several years back, he said, "Ernie... every time you mess with your airplane, you become a Test Pilot".
The man who shared that prophetic bit of wisdom with me was Jimmy Leeward.
Ernie
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:53 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I guess by now a number of yawl have heard that I trashed my M-14p several weeks back. I have an electric oil tank shutoff valve that I normally close at engine shutdown. On start up, I close a switch which opens the valve and completes the electrical circuit to open the air solenoid. Well after 1,800+ hours, it didn’t work. We were doing a memorial missing man flight, and I got distracted during the start and neglected to note oil pressure after start. I got the green light that indicated the valve was open, and of course the engine started fine. However 5 minutes later after taxiing to the run-up area, I notice that I could not get power to check my prop governor. At first I thought I had lost just the governor and I called the flight lead that I was dropping out. As I turned the airplane to head for the hangar, the engine made a funny sound, that made me look at the oil pressure gage. It read zero of course and I shut down the mags immediately. Too late of course.
At present the engine is at Barretts in Tulsa and may be fixed by June. A couple guys who have the same valve that I had have asked me to take it apart figure what happened. First of all the valve would not work on further tests. It was stuck in the closed position but would open manually HOWEVER with a good deal of resistant. I could operate the switch in the cockpit which would show normal indications, but the valve would move. And yes the engine was making medal.
I disassembled the valve motor, and separated it from the valve itself. The valve by itself operated smoothly, however the motor body did not. When I disassembled the motor body, the little electric motor itself seem to turn smoothly.
There are 3 sections of gears above the motor, that seem be designed to increase the torque of that tiny motor. When I separated those sections, I could not find any damaged teeth on the two lower sections and they themselves seemed OK. However the upper section cannot be seen or checked because of its location. This is also the section that moves 2 micro switches via a rocker arm arrangement. What I found here was 2 things. One, one of the micro switches was not working at all. And two, the gearing section seem to be binding intermittently. Though I can not see into that area, I suspect some kind of damage there nor can I determine its cause.
This valve assembly had 1,800+ hours on it. I was under the impression that the closed position of the valve, would prevent the engine from ever being started and that the green light confirmed the valve was open. Not so on both counts.
In the end, the ONE time (although there may have been others) I didn’t check the oil pressure after starting, is the time it failed.
So be warned this valve setup is not fail safe or idiot proof. The same thing happened to Craig Payne, and like him, I’m going to add a big red low oil pressure light, dead center of the panel. I’ll put a pressure switch on the inlet side of the external oil filter. I’d advise you guys/gals with the same set up to do the same.
My plans right now waiting for my engine, is do some major cockpit refurbishment and clean-up. Along with a bunch of other stuff, I’ve never had time for and wanted to do. I’ll still get plenty of flying (the Collings B-24 and Storch) that not a problem. But I do love to fly my CJ on those acro flights at sunset and will miss it - - - for a while.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi==
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¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
[quote][b]
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:16 am Post subject: My bad day. |
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Radial engine is meant to leak. Embrace it, feel it, be a part of the round motor history
then mop it up when it misses the bucket, spend more money on oil and smile large.
On Jan 27, 2014, at 6:51, "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote]I am sorry to hear about Pappy's "bad day". The external oil shut off valve has always been a "band-aide" for the real problem, which is the internal valve in the oil pump. Jill at M14P has proven this to be the problem with oil draining into the engine after shutdown and even published an article in the Red Star magazine a couple of years ago, with photos and drawings, illustrating the problem. Basically, when the internal valve does not close after shut down, the oil can continue to drain into the engine due to head pressure. Any external oil shut off valve only masks the real problem.
Dennis
From: Al Pickering <alpick(at)live.com.au (alpick(at)live.com.au)>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: My bad day.
Nice epitaph
" I got distracted"
Hmmm dont blame the valve old son.
We all forget stuff !
Al
Sent from Alspad.
On 27/01/2014, at 12:21 PM, "Ernest Martinez" <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry to hear about your mis-fortune Pappy, but I'm glad you didn't have an in flight failure and you caught it on the ground.
It does say a lot about keeping things simple though. The more systems you add to anything, the more susceptible you are to a failure . It's probably why the Chinese after over 50 years of manufacture have pretty much kept the design unchanged.
Companies have armies of full time engineers, dedicated full time to designing, testing, and re-designing systems long before they are released into production. Imagine our surprise when we experience a failure with our home brew concoctions, despite several hours of trouble free service during ideal conditions.
I remember some advise shared with me several years back, he said, "Ernie... every time you mess with your airplane, you become a Test Pilot".
The man who shared that prophetic bit of wisdom with me was Jimmy Leeward.
Ernie
On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:53 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I guess by now a number of yawl have heard that I trashed my M-14p several weeks back. I have an electric oil tank shutoff valve that I normally close at engine shutdown. On start up, I close a switch which opens the valve and completes the electrical circuit to open the air solenoid. Well after 1,800+ hours, it didn’t work. We were doing a memorial missing man flight, and I got distracted during the start and neglected to note oil pressure after start. I got the green light that indicated the valve was open, and of course the engine started fine. However 5 minutes later after taxiing to the run-up area, I notice that I could not get power to check my prop governor. At first I thought I had lost just the governor and I called the flight lead that I was dropping out. As I turned the airplane to head for the hangar, the engine made a funny sound, that made me look at the oil pressure gage. It read zero of course and I shut down the mags immediately. Too late of course.
At present the engine is at Barretts in Tulsa and may be fixed by June. A couple guys who have the same valve that I had have asked me to take it apart figure what happened. First of all the valve would not work on further tests. It was stuck in the closed position but would open manually HOWEVER with a good deal of resistant. I could operate the switch in the cockpit which would show normal indications, but the valve would move. And yes the engine was making medal.
I disassembled the valve motor, and separated it from the valve itself. The valve by itself operated smoothly, however the motor body did not. When I disassembled the motor body, the little electric motor itself seem to turn smoothly.
There are 3 sections of gears above the motor, that seem be designed to increase the torque of that tiny motor. When I separated those sections, I could not find any damaged teeth on the two lower sections and they themselves seemed OK. However the upper section cannot be seen or checked because of its location. This is also the section that moves 2 micro switches via a rocker arm arrangement. What I found here was 2 things. One, one of the micro switches was not working at all. And two, the gearing section seem to be binding intermittently. Though I can not see into that area, I suspect some kind of damage there nor can I determine its cause.
This valve assembly had 1,800+ hours on it. I was under the impression that the closed position of the valve, would prevent the engine from ever being started and that the green light confirmed the valve was open. Not so on both counts.
In the end, the ONE time (although there may have been others) I didn’t check the oil pressure after starting, is the time it failed.
So be warned this valve setup is not fail safe or idiot proof. The same thing happened to Craig Payne, and like him, I’m going to add a big red low oil pressure light, dead center of the panel. I’ll put a pressure switch on the inlet side of the external oil filter. I’d advise you guys/gals with the same set up to do the same.
My plans right now waiting for my engine, is do some major cockpit refurbishment and clean-up. Along with a bunch of other stuff, I’ve never had time for and wanted to do. I’ll still get plenty of flying (the Collings B-24 and Storch) that not a problem. But I do love to fly my CJ on those acro flights at sunset and will miss it - - - for a while.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Li="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.matronics.com/contributi==
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¦·›~‰í²,Þg(–ŠÓM4ÓGÚqü¢êâz¹ÞÁÊ.®'«8^a©ŠËD™¨¥Šî�,zØ^1«k¢xœ°¸¬´Wš¶êÞ°Ö¯Š¢»hnº0±í…隟"â²ÛŠX‰ë,¹ÈZ°¸¬µIÿJæìr¸©¶*'
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: My bad day. |
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Pappy, sorry to hear this happened.
A note on the positive side. If your engine is at Barretts, and you decide to go ahead and put his pistons and rings in the engine, the oil consumption goes down by a huge amount (I am talking in-flight here) and the oil getting past the rings into the cylinders is also drastically reduced (on the ground) due to closer tolerances and better ring seal when cold. My friend Hubie Tolson has one of his engines with the upgrades mounted on a SU-31 and I've been watching it closely. The engine was dyno'ed at something like 430 HP (PF model). Further, when the engine arrived from Barretts, the thing looked like it had just come from the factory. Flawless rebuild, beautiful paint, everything looked just amazing, and it ran the same as it looked.
Mark
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:17 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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Hi Pappy,
I am interested if any product improvements have been discussed with Kimball? I am considering installing their oil shutoff valve but our experience gives me pause.
I am also wondering now about the possibility of the oil shutoff closing inflight?
Thanks!
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd(at)fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.toddmccutchanairshows.com
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Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
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hess737(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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Todd,
I've had a Darton Clean Kit and the oil shutoff valve on Mongoose for ten years and 800 hours with no operational problems. It does put a stress on the bottom stem of the oil tank so my guys built a little support shelf. My guys also rebuilt the valve this year when we installed an overhauled M-14P. I've never had a problem with it. As a motor operated valve it shouldn't close unless you flip the switch.
Richard Hess
President
International Jets, Inc.
Cell 404-964-4885
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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So sorry to hear about this electrical oil shut-off misery with obvious dramatic consequences, even though the system did its job for a very long time. But indeed this incident just confirmed my decision not to go the electric way . In your country you say : In God we trust . But who really has equal trust in electrickery ?? In this actual case there were at least two failed components, and as it often is with electrical parts, one is unable to check those components by eyesight in order to catch them before they fail. So unless you come up with a dual system of control switches and indicators you really don´t know if and when one set has broken down.
These considerations have lead me to a strictly mechanical system as described earlier in this posting :
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=98977
The oil shut-off ball valve is linked by push-pull rod with the fuel shut-off lever, so before starting the engine you won´t miss to open the fuel tap - and the oil valve gets activated the same time. An additional spring keeps the oil valve open in case the pushrod failed in flight.
In case of a broken mag earth wire you will have to kill the engine by fuel shut-off. So for this rare event I included a Bowden cable operated hook that disengages the oil valve to remain open when the fuel tap gets closed. And no, I don´t pretend this system was easier to fabricate than the electrics but somehow I feel better with this ........
Cheers
Vic
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:59 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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I also did not want to add another possible point of failure, how good it
might be.
My engine (M14R) is rare and expensive, so I'd rather have it leaking oil
.
So, a very simple solution: a hose connected to the oil barrel.
Immediately after each flight I drain the oil from the barrel.
At the end of that hose, at the left side of the cowling, I have a
connector (as in hydraulics, don't know the proper term in English).
Since I can easily reach the shut-off valve at the bottom of the barrel
without opening the cowling, the whole exercise takes only two minutes.
BR,
Jan
Yak 50 F-AZUK
On 28/01/14 07:32, "Vic" <vicmolnar(at)aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
So sorry to hear about this electrical oil shut-off misery with obvious
dramatic consequences, even though the system did its job for a very long
time. But indeed this incident just confirmed my decision not to go the
electric way . In your country you say : In God we trust . But who really
has equal trust in electrickery ?? In this actual case there were at
least two failed components, and as it often is with electrical parts,
one is unable to check those components by eyesight in order to catch
them before they fail. So unless you come up with a dual system of
control switches and indicators you really don´t know if and when one
set has broken down.
These considerations have lead me to a strictly mechanical system as
described earlier in this posting :
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=98977
The oil shut-off ball valve is linked by push-pull rod with the fuel
shut-off lever, so before starting the engine you won´t miss to open the
fuel tap - and the oil valve gets activated the same time. An additional
spring keeps the oil valve open in case the pushrod failed in flight.
In case of a broken mag earth wire you will have to kill the engine by
fuel shut-off. So for this rare event I included a Bowden cable operated
hook that disengages the oil valve to remain open when the fuel tap gets
closed. And no, I don´t pretend this system was easier to fabricate than
the electrics but somehow I feel better with this ........
Cheers
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417744#417744
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/shutoff_891.jpg
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keithmckinley
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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(at)Vic, now that is impressive!
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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I have installed several and am using the Kimball valve . I can not see how the valve could close on itself. It is a rotating ball valve style. I have mounted the control cable such that it sticks out in the way of my leg so it hits me in the knee when pulled out to the closed position. The microswitch also does not allow me to energize the start switch unless the control cable pushed in all the way and at that time the bright yellow indicator light goes out that is next to the start switch telling me the valve is open. And at that time I should be looking at the oil pressure next during run up. I don't see how the oil shutoff could close on it's own since it takes a fair amount of work to move it in either direction even with the control . In my opinion the only way to close is for me to pull it to the off position which is in my way to fly and look at the glaring yellow light telling me the valve moved off the full open position.
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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Hi Dale,
your system sounds quite reasonable. How do you activate the valve, by push-pull wire like most of the cockpit levers do ? I suppose the yellow light switch is triggered by the valve lever and not by the cable handle ? I´d place the air start coil switch there as well - respectively a two position switch: When the yellow light is on the other contact is open -- when the light is out the other contact closes for starting. So you effectively control the function of the switch by looking at the lamp to go and off as well - the only way for checking a malfunction.
Vic
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:21 am Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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Non locking push pull control (aircraft spruce) I uses two stops on both sides of wire where it connects to arm on valve so it won't ever slip.
24 volt light wired to the micro-switch
Micro switch on Kimball shutoff ( supplied with valve )
Voltage must pass from one side of start button through micro-switch back to start switch where it connects to start solenoid wire (Not to switch)
there are two connections on micro-switch so you can wire light to other connector on so it is on when valve is off and on when valve is closed.
Micro-switch is activated on arm of valve not on wire or control wire and comes already screwed to valve (don't over tighten screws on switch).
Dale
Tried to erase one of these post- Sorry
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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Non locking push pull control (aircraft spruce) I uses two stops on both sides of wire where it connects to arm on valve so it won't ever slip.
24 volt light wired to the micro-switch
Micro switch on Kimball shutoff ( supplied with valve )
Voltage must pass from one side of start button through micro-switch back to start switch where it connects to start solenoid wire (Not to switch)
there are two connections on micro-switch so you can wire light to other connector on so it is on when valve is off and on when valve is closed.
Micro-switch is activated on arm of valve not on wire or control wire and comes already screwed to valve (don't over tighten screws on switch).
Dale
This is the valve with micro-switch . Unfinished install.
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: My bad day. |
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Dale;
I recently installed the Kimball valve on my CJ. The installation is
basically the same as yours with some minor differences. I used a two light
system taking advantage of the NO & NC features of the micro-switch and
installed a lockable cable assy. with an 0.072" wire.
Engine start power (for boost coil & air solenoid) is re-routed from the
Start Master CB/Switch to the Start button through the valve micro-switch.
With the valve arm in any position other than fully open the RED light is
illuminated from the NC contact. With the valve fully open power is
supplied (through the NO contact) to energize the start button and
illuminate the GREEN light.
In flight at any time the valve position can be confirmed by energizing the
Start Master.
The Press to Test circuit of the indicator lights is powered directly from
the 27VDC bus. so the lamps can be tested any time the Bat. Master is on.
There is no doubt that the position of the valve arm is the position of the
actual valve as may not be the case with an electrically driven valve.
I too have concerns with the control wire attachment to the valve arm. A
single set screw just does not meet any reasonable safety requirement. I
could not find suitable wire clamps as you did so I manufactured a new
stainless steel arm bushing with the 8-32NC thread extending over the full
length of the bushing. This allows a screw to be driven on top of the set
screw as a safety. Better than nothing?
Over a period of at least two weeks I tried to share this concern with
Kimball but they were simply not answering the phone!!
The Kimball valve is not a ball type. It is unique and probably their own
design and looks very good.
Valve operation is very smooth. Any binding after installation is a
function of the control installation which needs some careful planning. One
necessary item not well provided for in the valve design is the fact that
for smooth operation the cable housing clamp must be allowed to swivel a
small amount.
Cheers;
Walt
--
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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I do realize it is not a ball valve I stated ball style. Don't know the technical name for what it actually is .I will call it a cylindrical rotating single orifice super custom do-hickey dildo valve (Dildo for short to quote a Yak friend of mine , some of you know of whom I speak)
I installed it pretty much straight forward of the way Kimball uses it on the Pitts Model 12. been using it for years. works for me. Anyone can make something more complex than it needs to be. I custom made the SS wire stops in my machine shop. The best way to fix the issue is sell the plane.
Sooner or later everyone will pick this fix. No one way to do anything.
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: My bad day. |
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Now that looks very racy indeed ! I guess the valve is mounted on the oil tank ? In this forum I think to remember that there have been reports of fractures of the oil tank joint as the valve assembly is a bit massive. Wouldn´t it be safer to place the valve somewhere on the fire wall with a hose connecting to the tank? On the 18 T I put the actual ball valve on the right side next to the oil "filter" .
Vic
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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Correct.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Vic [vicmolnar(at)aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:28 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: My bad day.
Now that looks very racy indeed ! I guess the valve is mounted on the oil tank ? In this forum I think to remember that there have been reports of fractures of the oil tank joint as the valve assembly is a bit massive. Wouldn´t it be safer to place the valve somewhere on the fire wall with a hose connecting to the tank? On the 18 T I put the actual ball valve on the right side next to the oil "filter" .
Vic
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417844#417844
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: My bad day. |
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As far as I know those reports referred to the motorized valve which is
considerably heavier. That does not relieve the concern though and I spent
much time trying to find a way to firewall mount it. The valve
configuration does not lend itself to firewall mounting on the CJ.
So it is tank mounted but it is also directly braced to the firewall
eliminating any possibility of relative motion between the valve and the
tank.
Walt
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