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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Thanks Joe;
I keep forgetting about the 3 blade prop. - never had one.
Of course these are minimum requirements. Out of long habit from R1340 days
I usually pull 9 blades but as you suggested once you have done a CLEAN full
cycle you are ready to go.
Any more is great exercise!
The one fairly common procedure I strongly dis-agree with is pulling the
prop through after priming the engine. Sure, it may show that your intake
drains are open, etc. but, as I have posted many times before, ANY type of
failure of a mag. switch or the "P" lead is a LIVE magneto. It's a game of
Russian Roulette and eventually someone will lose.
Walt.
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:15 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Hi Dennis;
All that math gives me a headache before lunch! I think you may have forgotten that one cycle requires 720 degs. of crank rotation rather than 360.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
Someone please check my math because this is what I calculate for the Housai engine. One complete revolution covers 7 cylinders. ie: 360 degrees/9 = 40 degrees per cylinder. 360 degrees * .787 = 283 degrees/40 degrees = 7 cylinders per 2 blades (360 degrees). Therefore 1 blade covers 3.5 cylinders. 2 blades = 7 cylinders and 3 blades = 9.5 cylinders. Thus to cycle through all cylinders completely for a Housai engine is 3 blades
For the M14, using the same analogy, 360 * .658 = 237 degrees/40 = 5.9 cylinders per 2 blades. Therefore 1 blade covers 2.9 cylinders. Therefore to cycle all cylinders completely on an M14, would require 4 blades, not 3 because 3 blades is not quite 9 cylinders.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 2/19/2014 9:47 AM, Joe Enzminger wrote:
[quote] | Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Joe Enzminger" mailto:panchoandlefty2002(at)yahoo.com (panchoandlefty2002(at)yahoo.com)
"The actual minimum CRANKSHAFT rotation necessary to cycle all cylinders is
4.5 for all 9 cyl. radials. That is 9 blades for a direct drive engine.
Minimum for the M14P is 6 blades ( 4.5 X 0.658 X 2) and for the Huosai 7
blades (4.5 X 0.787 X 2). "
Walt,
Thanks for that! I've always suspected I didn't quite have that right.
So the chart would be:
Engine Prop Blades
M14 2 6
M14 3 9
HS6A 2 7
HS6A 3 11 (is there such a thing?)
Joe
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418998#418998
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Your numbers are inverted. One prop revolution on m14p is 360/.658 or 547 deg or 13.7 cyl and on the housai it is 360/.768 or 468 deg or 11.7 cyl.
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:28 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
Someone please check my math because this is what I calculate for the Housai engine. One complete revolution covers 7 cylinders. ie: 360 degrees/9 = 40 degrees per cylinder. 360 degrees * .787 = 283 degrees/40 degrees = 7 cylinders per 2 blades (360 degrees). Therefore 1 blade covers 3.5 cylinders. 2 blades = 7 cylinders and 3 blades = 9.5 cylinders. Thus to cycle through all cylinders completely for a Housai engine is 3 blades
For the M14, using the same analogy, 360 * .658 = 237 degrees/40 = 5.9 cylinders per 2 blades. Therefore 1 blade covers 2.9 cylinders. Therefore to cycle all cylinders completely on an M14, would require 4 blades, not 3 because 3 blades is not quite 9 cylinders.
Dennis
| Quote: | | A. Dennis Savarese334-285-6263334-546-8182 (mobile)www.yak-52.comSkype - Yakguy1 |
On 2/19/2014 9:47 AM, Joe Enzminger wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Joe Enzminger" <panchoandlefty2002(at)yahoo.com> (panchoandlefty2002(at)yahoo.com) "The actual minimum CRANKSHAFT rotation necessary to cycle all cylinders is 4.5 for all 9 cyl. radials. That is 9 blades for a direct drive engine. Minimum for the M14P is 6 blades ( 4.5 X 0.658 X 2) and for the Huosai 7 334-285-6263 |
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3 - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b]Skype - Yakguy1[/quote]4
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:06 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Hi Walt,
Yep, you're 100% correct, as usual. Thanks for keep me in line.
Best regards,
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 2/19/2014 11:14 AM, Walter Lannon wrote:
[quote] Hi Dennis;
All that math gives me a headache before lunch! I think you may have forgotten that one cycle requires 720 degs. of crank rotation rather than 360.
Cheers;
Walt
From: A. Dennis Savarese (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 8:27 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
Someone please check my math because this is what I calculate for the Housai engine. One complete revolution covers 7 cylinders. ie: 360 degrees/9 = 40 degrees per cylinder. 360 degrees * .787 = 283 degrees/40 degrees = 7 cylinders per 2 blades (360 degrees). Therefore 1 blade covers 3.5 cylinders. 2 blades = 7 cylinders and 3 blades = 9.5 cylinders. Thus to cycle through all cylinders completely for a Housai engine is 3 blades
For the M14, using the same analogy, 360 * .658 = 237 degrees/40 = 5.9 cylinders per 2 blades. Therefore 1 blade covers 2.9 cylinders. Therefore to cycle all cylinders completely on an M14, would require 4 blades, not 3 because 3 blades is not quite 9 cylinders.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 2/19/2014 9:47 AM, Joe Enzminger wrote:
[b]
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LawnDart
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: propeller pull through procedure |
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1 crankshaft rotation = 360 deg.
1 thermodynamic cycle (4-stroke) = 720 deg of crankshaft rotation.
M14P prop reduction = 0.658 (prop turns less than crankshaft).
720 / 0.658 = 1094 deg of prop rotation to complete 1 thermodynamic 4-stroke cycle.
1094 / 180 deg = 6.1 blades (turning one blade of a 2-bladed prop = 180 deg of prop rotation).
Notes:
a) substitute 0.xxx for 0.658 if your prop reduction is different.
b) for a 3-bladed prop, substitute 120 deg for 180 deg.
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:20 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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This backwards - 720 degrees prop rotation equals 1094 degrees engine
rotation
Gill
--
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Ok. So how many blades for 2 blade & 3 blade to get all 9 cyl for those of us that are math challenged?
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)>
This backwards - 720 degrees prop rotation equals 1094 degrees engine
rotation
Gill
--
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com |
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LawnDart
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: propeller pull through procedure |
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[quote="gill.g(at)gpimail.com"]This backwards - 720 degrees prop rotation equals 1094 degrees engine
rotation
Gill
--[/quote]
Gill is correct.
Corrected math -
1 crankshaft rotation = 360 deg.
1 thermodynamic cycle (4-stroke) = 720 deg of crankshaft rotation.
M14P prop reduction = 0.658 (prop turns less than crankshaft).
720 * 0.658 = 474 deg of prop rotation to complete 1 thermodynamic 4-stroke cycle.
474 / 180 deg = 2.6 blades (turning one blade of a 2-bladed prop = 180 deg of prop rotation).
Notes:
a) substitute 0.xxx for 0.658 if your prop reduction is different.
b) for a 3-bladed prop, substitute 120 deg for 180 deg.
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Walt,
The difference in not pulling the engine in after prime, or pulling it through manually after prime, can have a dramatic difference on how fast the engine starts, and whether or not you run out of air before it starts and are left with the only solution BEING hand propping.
This gets even worse in very cold whether when oil viscosity is at a minimum.
So it is a trade-off really. The last time the engine shut down, the mag switch and wires were "tested good". That said, it is true that a wire can break at any time. So the answer is that we should always treat these props as dangerous......... primed or not.
I watched a good friend get hit by a prop that he was pulling through, with a disconnected mag wire. It had not been primed. It picked him up and threw him for about 10 feet. Engine actually started! So yes, someone has ALREADY lost. He survived, and did not lose anything except some flesh. The prop blade had to be sent in for repair.
If safety is the ultimate answer, stop pulling the prop through at all. Open the cowl, remove the plugs, open the intake drain caps, and let it go for a while.
But no one really wants that hassle, so we have intake drain kits, and mathematics about how many blades should be pulled.
I think procedures are important, but ATTITUDE is the MOST important. I prime and pull my engine through on EVERY start. I also am damn careful.
Just sayin.
Mark
--
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:12 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Two blade prop – assuming  you pull the blade 180 degrees – so you do 4 blades to give you 1094 degrees of engine rotation which is greater than the 720 required for a full cycle. Three blades assuming 120 degrees per blade would require six blades for the same engine rotation of 1094 degrees. The deferent gearing in the Housai means that you get less engine rotation but on a two blade prop, 4 blades would also exceed the 720 cycle rotation on the engine,
Gill
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd McCutchan
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:48 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
Ok. So how many blades for 2 blade & 3 blade to get all 9 cyl for those of us that are math challenged?
Todd McCutchan
T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
[quote]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)>
This backwards - 720 degrees prop rotation equals 1094 degrees engine
rotation
Gill
--
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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All of this math is causing a major helmet fire! Reminds me of an
instructor I had in Schools Command in the Navy who had a useful equation
for the young Student Naval Aviators and Student Naval Flight Officers
before they went out on liberty in Pensacola. It went like this:
B4I4Q RU/18?
First person to solve the equation may be eligible to win a free trip across
the Shit River in Olongapo, R.P.
Mark Davis
N44YK
P.S. I pull twelve blades on my M-14P to hopefully have cleared the
cylinders twice.
---
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Simple... no real math just finger counting... pull at least 9, but a few more doesn't hurt anything.
Jon Blake
jblake207(at)comcast.net
From: "Todd McCutchan" <todd(at)fastaircraft.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 3:47:51 PM
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
Ok. So how many blades for 2 blade & 3 blade to get all 9 cyl for those of us that are math challenged?
Todd McCutchan T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "Gill Gutierrez" <gill.g(at)gpimail.com (gill.g(at)gpimail.com)>
This backwards - 720 degrees prop rotation equals 1094 degrees engine
rotation
Gill
--
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Hey Mark, Was she? Over 18 that is...
Jon Blake
jblake207(at)comcast.net
From: "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 4:29:35 PM
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org>
All of this math is causing a major helmet fire! Reminds me of an
instructor I had in Schools Command in the Navy who had a useful equation
for the young Student Naval Aviators and Student Naval Flight Officers
before they went out on liberty in Pensacola. It went like this:
B4I4Q RU/18?
First person to solve the equation may be eligible to win a free trip across
the Shit River in Olongapo, R.P.
Mark Davis
N44YK
P.S. I pull twelve blades on my M-14P to hopefully have cleared the
cylinders twice.
---
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:05 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Jon,
I got multiple all expense paid trips to Subic Bay on Carl Vinson to have the opportunity to cross the Shit River into the paradise known as Olongapo......
Mark
[quote] ---
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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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So where does MMO come into to this?
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 2/19/2014 7:05:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, markdavis(at)wbsnet.org writes:
[quote] Jon,
I got multiple all expense paid trips to Subic Bay on Carl Vinson to have the opportunity to cross the Shit River into the paradise known as Olongapo......
Mark
[quote] ---
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McFly
Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 101
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:04 pm Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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So I get 9.12 blades for complete rotation (1094/120) which means 10 blades to clear all yes?
Todd McCutchanT-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:12 PM, "LawnDart" <propwash(at)gmail.com (propwash(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "LawnDart" <propwash(at)gmail.com (propwash(at)gmail.com)>
1 crankshaft rotation = 360 deg.
1 thermodynamic cycle (4-stroke) = 720 deg of crankshaft rotation.
M14P prop reduction = 0.658 (prop turns less than crankshaft).
720 / 0.658 = 1094 deg of prop rotation to complete 1 thermodynamic 4-stroke cycle.
1094 / 180 deg = 6.1 blades (turning one blade of a 2-bladed prop = 180 deg of prop rotation).
Notes:
a) substitute 0.xxx for 0.658 if your prop reduction is different.
b) for a 3-bladed prop, substitute 120 deg for 180 deg.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419017#419017
http://forums.matronics.com[/url]==============================================
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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_________________
Todd McCutchan
Fast Aircraft
T-34A - N134FA
KDVT Hangar 33-13
Cell - 260.402.1740
Email: todd@fastaircraft.com
Skype: tmccutchan
Web: www.fastaircraft.com & www.flyams.com |
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:27 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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Pappy,
I think the MMO was used for the reddish tint in the Cubi Special served at the Cubi O'Club. It was hard to detect over the cheap rum.
Mark
[quote] ---
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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There seems to be a number of different methods for determining number of rotations to complete a full cycle. Mostly wrong.
The key is the Otto cycle itself. It needs two revolutions to complete and has a number of events taking place at very specific points in the cycle. If you stack a number of these cylinders together whether in a line or circle or whatever it becomes clear that there must be a specific interval for those events between cylinders.
The design itself indicates that interval is 180 degs.
To fully cycle 9 cylinders then requires a crankshaft rotation of 1620 degs. (9X180). 1620/360 = 4.5 revolutions for a direct drive engine.
For the M14P: 4.5 X 0.658 X 2 (blades) = 5.922 turns OR 1620 X 0.658 = 1065.96 X 2 = 2132.92/360 = 5.922 turns.
For the HS6A the gear ratio is 0.787. The above is for two blades. I hate three blades causes there is always one in the way to hit my head on.
Walt
From: Todd McCutchan (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 10:59 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: propeller pull through procedure
So I get 9.12 blades for complete rotation (1094/120) which means 10 blades to clear all yes?
Todd McCutchan T-34A & Yak-50
Cell: (260) 402-1740
E-mail: todd(at)fastaircraft.com (todd(at)fastaircraft.com)
www.fastaircraft.com
On Feb 19, 2014, at 2:12 PM, "LawnDart" <propwash(at)gmail.com (propwash(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Yak-List message posted by: "LawnDart" <propwash(at)gmail.com (propwash(at)gmail.com)>
1 crankshaft rotation = 360 deg.
1 thermodynamic cycle (4-stroke) = 720 deg of crankshaft rotation.
M14P prop reduction = 0.658 (prop turns less than crankshaft).
720 / 0.658 = 1094 deg of prop rotation to complete 1 thermodynamic 4-stroke cycle.
1094 / 180 deg = 6.1 blades (turning one blade of a 2-bladed prop = 180 deg of prop rotation).
Notes:
a) substitute 0.xxx for 0.658 if your prop reduction is different.
b) for a 3-bladed prop, substitute 120 deg for 180 deg.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419017#419017
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[b]
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gjhagstrom(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:51 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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I thought it was handed out at the Eastend Club ??
Gary
VF-51 , " Coral Sea" '72- '76
--
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firedog(at)visi.com
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: propeller pull through procedure |
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The mere mention of “Otto” causes me to return to those troubling sleepless college years and invokes these images:
[img]cid:image002.jpg(at)01CF2E34.A14E15E0[/img]
Thanks Walt…I hope you too will have the “I’ve got a final tomorrow on a subject for which I’ve yet to get the books and go to the lecture” dreams tonight…I know I will be having.
Oh yeah…then there’s these ‘laws”…Damn you Newton!
Back to my lowest energy state…just corroding away here in the Bahamas…
ras
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