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dlm34077

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: AZ

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: N62DN

Does anyone know  whether this aircraft was an electronic ignition aircraft? I read the  preliminary NTSB report and the survivor interview where she stated that the  engine went silent and the electronics failed immediately  thereafter? 

   [quote][b]

dlm34077

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: AZ

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: N62DN

NTSB Identification: WPR14FA218

14 CFR Part 91: General  Aviation

Accident occurred Saturday, May 31, 2014 in Toldeo, OR

Aircraft:  NEBERT VANS RV-10, registration: N62DN

Injuries: 2 Fatal,1 Serious. 

 This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain  errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has  been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this  investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without  any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft  accident report.

On May 31, 2014, about 1620 Pacific daylight time,  a single-engine experimental Nebert Vans RV-10, N62DN, experienced a loss of  power and departed control flight while the pilot was maneuvering for a forced  landing in Toledo, Oregon. The private pilot and four-year old passenger were  fatally injured; the adult passenger sustained serious injuries. The airplane  was registered to and being operated by the pilot under the provisions of 14  Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The personal flight departed Newport  Municipal Airport, Newport, Oregon with a planned destination of Seattle,  Washington. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had  been filed. 



Numerous witnesses located in Toledo reported observing the  airplane flying at a low altitude from the north. The witnesses reported hearing  no sound from the airplane's engine and saw it progressively descend in  altitude. The airplane approached the Georgia Pacific paper mill and made a  steep turn to the left. The airplane subsequently made a rapid descent and  impacted terrain in a nose-low near-vertical attitude. 



The surviving  passenger recalled the flight although was heavily medicated during the  recounting of the events that transpired. She stated that she was in the aft  right seat and her daughter was buckled in a car seat positioned in the aft left  seat. Luggage was strapped in the front right seat in an effort to compensate  for the aft weight. The departure seemed normal and the pilot commented that the  engine sounded the best ever had prior. The airplane continued the takeoff climb  through some cloud wisps and ascended above a lower cloud cover, with an  overcast layer above. 



The passenger further stated that suddenly the  engine experienced a total loss of power, which she described as the airplane  stopping forward motion and there was no engine sound. An alarm sounded and  shortly thereafter, all of the airplane electric system failed. She recalled  observing the screen in front of the pilot flickered and then went blank. The  pilot was busy pressing buttons and maneuvering levers and indicated that they  were going to land at the closest airport [which was Toledo]. The airplane  descended through clouds heading toward the airport. The pilot stated that they  were going to make it to the airport and he was looking for a place to land. The  airplane made an alert sound, which she thought indicated the airplane was  moving too slow. The pilot made a left turn and tried to pull up but the  airplane spiraled down harder to the ground.



The accident site was  located in the paper mill adjacent to the Yaquina River in Toledo, Oregon, with  the debris confined to the immediate area near the main wreckage. The closest  airport to the accident was in Toledo, Oregon and was located 0.7 nm for the  accident site on a heading of 192-degrees. The wreckage came to rest in a flat  area which was a portion of dirt road on the perimeter of the mill. Surrounding  the site were 20 ft high stacked bales of crushed cardboard boxes and a railroad  track with parked train cars. Additionally, a northwest-southeast oriented 12  ft-diameter tubular conveyer was near the accident site that was about 70 feet  high and 1,625 ft long.



The main wreckage, which consisted of nearly the  entire airplane, was on a heading of 310 degrees. The initial point of impact  consisted of a ground scar and disrupted dirt located about 25 feet and on the  bearing of 220 degree from the cockpit section of the main wreckage. Embedded in  the dirt were fragments of red lens and shards of paint and fiberglass,  consistent with the left wing impacting first.  

 



   [quote][b]

EdKranz

Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Hastings, MN

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:41 pm Post subject: N62DN

From his build site: http://websites.expercraft.com/douglasn/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=51251



 ....it looks like he was running mags on a carbureted engine.



On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 3:12 PM, DLM <dlm34077(at)cox.net (dlm34077(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 [quote]     Does anyone know  whether this aircraft was an electronic ignition aircraft? I read the  preliminary NTSB report and the survivor interview where she stated that the  engine went silent and the electronics failed immediately  thereafter? 

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

_________________
Ed Kranz
RV10
Finishing
www.edandcolleen.com

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: N62DN

Sad deal.. But.. Like many other crashes after a engine failure....... FLY the plane and do NOT get slow.....

 

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

bobw

Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 8
Location: Marquette, MI

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: N62DN

Interesting to note that there is a Lycoming Mandatory Service Bulletin #554 (dated Sept 30, 2002) that  mandated a Crankshaft Gear Retaining Bolt Replacement.    Excerpt below.



“ All O, IO, (L)TIO or AEIO-540 engines that have had a crankshaft bolt replaced during maintenance or overhaul between November 27, 1996 and November 10, 1998.  Lycoming has determined that a metallurgical condition has caused crankshaft gear retaining bolts to fail in service. The crankshaft gear drives both magnetos and the camshaft. Failure of the retaining bolt results in total loss of power without prior warning. Lycoming requires that the crankshaft gear retaining bolt be replaced with the new bolt P/N STD-2209 (cadmium plated and silver in color).”

Bob Wilson



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kranz

Sent: Friday, June 13, 2014 4:41 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: RV10-List: N62DN



From his build site: http://websites.expercraft.com/douglasn/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=51251



....it looks like he was running mags on a carbureted engine.



On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 3:12 PM, DLM <dlm34077(at)cox.net<mailto:dlm34077(at)cox.net>> wrote:

Does anyone know whether this aircraft was an electronic ignition aircraft? I read the preliminary NTSB report and the survivor interview where she stated that the engine went silent and the electronics failed immediately thereafter?



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List



tp://forums.matronics.com



_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

_________________
Bob Wilson
bob@rjw.cc

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: N62DN

Does not explain electrical power loss unless maybe he turned it off per his emergency checklist. That will be one of the last items before an off field landing. He was trying to make it that last .7 nm to the airport. I think I will go practice stalls and slow flight with the airspeed tape covered again.

_________________
Wayne G.

dlm34077

Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: AZ

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: N62DN

This obviously does  not apply for low altitude failure on takeoff but a failure at altitude; it may  be possible to turn on the AP while troubleshooting. My Trutrak will maintain  altitude until a minimum of 80 KIAS them start giving up altitude for airspeed.  Also prop control should be full aft. This would allow full attention to a  restart. Of course it would have to hand flown later but it may be acceptable to  troubleshoot without also having to control the  aircraft.

   [quote][b]

rv10flyer

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: Re: N62DN

Same here....80 kts MAS on mine .

_________________
Wayne G.

cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: N62DN

I've been mulling whether to add my .02 to thus, but having experienced a catastrophic engine failure in an RV-6 I'll submit my thoughts.  This is not a critique of what happened in any way as I don't have all the facts, but simply lessons learned from my experience.  As many have said in a number of posts, fly the airplane first, no matter how exciting things get.  I'm not sold on the autopilot use since the airplane trims so nicely, but by all means use whatever it takes to keep flying airspeed.  I flew fighters for 20 years and lived on angle of attack indicators, however in light airplanes the stall and max range speeds really don't vary much within the acceptable weight range so I would argue a solid airspeed cross check and good feel for the airplane is far more important.  The RV-10 has a very subtle stall which is good, but with occasional practice it is still very perceptible.  It is also very important to know the best range airspeed engine out, in my airplane's case it's about 80 knots.  If you are faster when the engine quits, trade airspeed for altitude which will result in time and options.

      As my RV-6 glider was cruising over heavily forested hills in search of a place to land a few important things became clear.  First of all, when it gets grim don't worry about what's best for the airplane, that's what insurance is for.  Do what's best to make sure the pink bodies in the airplane are going to fare as well as possible.  I actually made a conscientious decision that the airplane was a write off and focused on survivability and am very thankful for it. 

     Second, fly the airplane at max range speed until landing is assured where you want to go.  My passenger was a very low time private pilot and as we cruised in silence he recommended a runway off in the distance on an island.  I pointed out that it was rising in the windscreen which means we couldn't make it.  Stretching out a glide by slowing down only works when you are just about to land and have the airspeed above stall to spare, too many accidents have been caused by trying to make the airplane fly farther than aerodynamics will allow.  

     Third, be very sensitive to what the airplane is telling you.  Once I had the small clearing I thankfully found made, I was doing small S turns to eliminate the extra airspeed and altitude.  I had also delayed extending the flaps until landing was assured.  During one of the turns I sensed the tickle of an oncoming accelerated stall and quickly backed off.  The airplane is happy to talk to you, but make sure you are listening.  

     Finally, the accident happened at a time in my flying career when I was most proficient at engine out situations.  As an additional duty I ran the small T-34C program and therefore routinely flew this essentially light airplane fairly often and doing practice engine out approaches was a routine event.  I have to admit I don't practice them now as much as I would advocate, but they are a great idea regardless of one's experience.  Not only for getting the procedures down, but also getting a realistic expectation of how far the airplane will glide and what that looks like out the window.



Enough rambling, hope this helps someone,

Marcus

40286



On Jun 16, 2014, at 0:08, "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com> wrote:






Does not explain electrical power loss unless maybe he turned it off per his emergency checklist. That will be one of the last items before an off field landing. He was trying to make it that last .7 nm to the airport. I think I will go practice stalls and slow flight with the airspeed tape covered again.



--------

Wayne G.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424914#424914

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: N62DN

On 06/16/2014 08:12 AM, DLM wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   This obviously does not apply for low altitude failure on takeoff but a

 failure at altitude; it may be possible to turn on the AP while

 troubleshooting. My Trutrak will maintain altitude until a minimum of 80

 KIAS them start giving up altitude for airspeed. Also prop control

 should be full aft. This would allow full attention to a restart. Of

 course it would have to hand flown later but it may be acceptable to

 troubleshoot without also having to control the aircraft.


	


This sounds like a terrible idea at any altitude.  You should, above all

else, be flying the airplane.  When an engine quits in a single-engine

aircraft, I don't really care what else you do, but you should land the

aircraft safely.  [note, some speculation follows...] It would appear

from the NTSB preliminary report that the pilot in question failed to

fly the airplane.  The autopilot wouldn't have helped him here: he

picked a field he couldn't make, and apparently never realized he

couldn't make it since he forced the airplane into a stall trying.



If you've got the autopilot flying some random heading, maintaining best

glide, hoping to restart the engine, you will probably kill yourself.  I

would much rather read about someone who had an engine failure that

could have been restarted by flipping a switch, but instead landed

safely (albeit unnecessarily) in a field than the alternative.  An

engine failure should *not* be a life-threatening event, and I'm sick of

reading about pilots killing themselves and others because they failed

to fly the airplane.



Once you've picked a landing spot, figured out how you're going to

maneuver the aircraft to that landing spot (I'm a big fan of practicing

power-off 360s until you know how to do this), then, and only then,

should you attempt an engine restart.



By setting the autopilot, you're in effect giving yourself permission to

not fly the airplane.  As you say, "this would allow full attention to a

restart," which, in my not-so-humble opinion is exactly what you should

never do.  If you trim the airplane for best glide (or, better, minimum

sink if you're able to pick a field that's mostly underneath you), it

will maintain that speed without input from you.  No autopilot

necessary, and you'll be paying a lot more attention to which direction

you're flying than you would be by moving some heading bug around.



The advice for set the prop control to the highest pitch (lowest speed)

possible is good assuming you're trying to maximize gliding distance or

time aloft.



Berck

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject: N62DN

Berck,

Are you flying your -10 yet? If not, then don't assume you can just trim for a certain speed and it will stay. It's no Cessna. I told my instructor, when I was working on my IFR that it was hard to hold altitude accurately. He didn't believe me until he tried. Any slight stick pressure can give you a 500fpm climb or descent. I'm not arguing for using the autopilot, just saying that it isn't as simple as just trimming for a certain airspeed. With almost 700 RV-10 hours I still feel the same way, that I would not fly this plane IFR without an autopilot. 

Do not archive. 

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

352-427-0285

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 16, 2014, at 9:36 PM, "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> On 06/16/2014 08:12 AM, DLM wrote:

> This obviously does not apply for low altitude failure on takeoff but a

> failure at altitude; it may be possible to turn on the AP while

> troubleshooting. My Trutrak will maintain altitude until a minimum of 80

> KIAS them start giving up altitude for airspeed. Also prop control

> should be full aft. This would allow full attention to a restart. Of

> course it would have to hand flown later but it may be acceptable to

> troubleshoot without also having to control the aircraft.

 This sounds like a terrible idea at any altitude.  You should, above all

 else, be flying the airplane.  When an engine quits in a single-engine

 aircraft, I don't really care what else you do, but you should land the

 aircraft safely.  [note, some speculation follows...] It would appear

 from the NTSB preliminary report that the pilot in question failed to

 fly the airplane.  The autopilot wouldn't have helped him here: he

 picked a field he couldn't make, and apparently never realized he

 couldn't make it since he forced the airplane into a stall trying.

 If you've got the autopilot flying some random heading, maintaining best

 glide, hoping to restart the engine, you will probably kill yourself.  I

 would much rather read about someone who had an engine failure that

 could have been restarted by flipping a switch, but instead landed

 safely (albeit unnecessarily) in a field than the alternative.  An

 engine failure should *not* be a life-threatening event, and I'm sick of

 reading about pilots killing themselves and others because they failed

 to fly the airplane.

 Once you've picked a landing spot, figured out how you're going to

 maneuver the aircraft to that landing spot (I'm a big fan of practicing

 power-off 360s until you know how to do this), then, and only then,

 should you attempt an engine restart.

 By setting the autopilot, you're in effect giving yourself permission to

 not fly the airplane.  As you say, "this would allow full attention to a

 restart," which, in my not-so-humble opinion is exactly what you should

 never do.  If you trim the airplane for best glide (or, better, minimum

 sink if you're able to pick a field that's mostly underneath you), it

 will maintain that speed without input from you.  No autopilot

 necessary, and you'll be paying a lot more attention to which direction

 you're flying than you would be by moving some heading bug around.

 The advice for set the prop control to the highest pitch (lowest speed)

 possible is good assuming you're trying to maximize gliding distance or

 time aloft.

 Berck

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: N62DN

On 06/16/2014 08:29 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Are you flying your -10 yet? If not, then don't assume you can just trim for a certain speed and it will stay. It's no Cessna. I told my instructor, when I was working on my IFR that it was hard to hold altitude accurately. He didn't believe me until he tried. Any slight stick pressure can give you a 500fpm climb or descent. I'm not arguing for using the autopilot, just saying that it isn't as simple as just trimming for a certain airspeed. With almost 700 RV-10 hours I still feel the same way, that I would not fly this plane IFR without an autopilot. 


	


I am not, but I have yet to fly an airplane that cannot be trimmed for

an airspeed.  An airplane that cannot be trimmed for an airspeed

essentially exhibits negative dynamic stability.  I'm sure that's not

the case for the RV-10.  I've flown everything from Cessnas, to

turboprops, to jets, and have yet to find an airplane that cannot be

easily trimmed for airspeed.  Not saying one doesn't exist, but they're

not normal, and I don't think the RV-10 is one of them.



Maintaining altitude is a different story.  As long as you've got

positive dynamic stability, you're still going to get a diminishing set

of diversions that converge on the airspeed you're trimmed for, though a

very maneuverable airplane will take more time to stabilize than a less

maneuverable (more stable) airplane. That doesn't mean it won't trim for

airspeed, but may hunt a bit for it.  The jets I've flown have all been

hard to hand-fly in level flight.  When I started flying for the

airlines, almost all the training the sim was autopilot-centric, and it

took quite a few hours in the plane to get proficient hand flying it.

The hardest hand-flown maneuver in an airliner, for me, was leveling off

from a climb and accelerating to cruise speed with no autopilot or

flight director.  Very twitchy, the trim very sensitive, the aircraft

extremely pitch-sensitive to thrust changes, and all equipped with

flight attendants that will bitch if they can tell you're hand-flying

while they're walking around.  Still, they're all very easy to trim for

a stabilized climb/descent at a specific airspeed.  Flying a stabilized

approach by hand was cake in comparison to flying level.



So, yes, I can believe that maintaining altitude in an RV-10 (known for

being maneuverable) is tricky.  I *do* believe that descents are as

simple as trimming for airspeed in a descent.  If you've got a +/-5 hunt

for airspeed, close enough!  Maybe even better that it hunts a bit, I'd

rather you were paying attention to airspeed than trying to restart your

engine, because maybe you'll land safely.



As a somewhat snide side remark that I still hope you'll think about for

a second: If you can't fly an RV-10 IFR without an autopilot, I hope you

either



(a) don't fly an RV-10 IFR or

(b) have two fully redundant autopilots installed.



Berck

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: N62DN

Eye witness testimony is often wrong, not to mention being sedated, but if in fact there was a complete electrical failure then neither the autopilot, nor the trim, would work. (I note she later heard what may have been the stall horn, which is electric).



As for ifr, of course the -10 can be hand flown. It's just more tiring.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: N62DN

 	  dlm34077 wrote: 	
		  This obviously does  not apply for low altitude failure on takeoff but a failure at altitude; it may  be possible to turn on the AP while troubleshooting. My Trutrak will maintain  altitude until a minimum of 80 KIAS them start giving up altitude for airspeed.  Also prop control should be full aft. This would allow full attention to a  restart. Of course it would have to hand flown later but it may be acceptable to  troubleshoot without also having to control the  aircraft.

   	




Is this a trutrak setting for glide?  I'll have to practice this.

Despite other's objections, if your comfortable with both hand flying glide and autopilot glide this makes sense to me especially if you're attempting a restart.  The -10 stall is very easy to detect and manage (if you have altitude to play with).



The other nice feature to have on your EFIS  (if you still have electrical juice) is a glide map overlay that takes into account wind.  This is on the Chelton's, but not sure if the others have adopted this very simple tool.  Doing this with your senses and in your head would take quite a bit of practice to become proficient in an emergency situation.



Now my question I need help on, is prop full aft the best feathering no power glide setting?  Frankly, I'm embarrassed that I don't know this.  



cjay

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: N62DN

 	  cjay wrote: 	
		   	  dlm34077 wrote: 	
		  This obviously does  not apply for low altitude failure on takeoff but a failure at altitude; it may  be possible to turn on the AP while troubleshooting. My Trutrak will maintain  altitude until a minimum of 80 KIAS them start giving up altitude for airspeed.  Also prop control should be full aft. This would allow full attention to a  restart. Of course it would have to hand flown later but it may be acceptable to  troubleshoot without also having to control the  aircraft.

   	




Is this a trutrak setting for glide?  I'll have to practice this.

Despite other's objections, if your comfortable with both hand flying glide and autopilot glide this makes sense to me especially if you're attempting a restart.  The -10 stall is very easy to detect and manage (if you have altitude to play with).



The other nice feature to have on your EFIS  (if you still have electrical juice) is a glide map overlay that takes into account wind.  This is on the Chelton's, but not sure if the others have adopted this very simple tool.  Doing this with your senses and in your head would take quite a bit of practice to become proficient in an emergency situation.



Now my question I need help on, is prop full aft the best feathering no power glide setting?  Frankly, I'm embarrassed that I don't know this.  



cjay 	




It's not designed to give you best glide,but rather to keep the autopilot from inadvertantly stalling the aircraft. I'd recommend setting the minimum speed closer to 70 kias, in case you want the autopilot to fly an approach at, say, 75 kias. (Trio has the same feature).



The GRT EFIS will show you how far you can glide. You need the gps working, too, and you have to enter as the target altitude the ground or airport elevation.



Yes, if the engine is windmilling, the rpm within governing range, you have oil pressure, etc., then minimum rpm setting (full out) will give you minimum drag. You can also reduce the drag by full open (forward) throttle.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: N62DN

I didn't say couldn't, I said wouldn't. Big difference. 

Do not archive. 

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

352-427-0285

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:00 PM, "Berck E. Nash" <flyboy(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> On 06/16/2014 08:29 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:

> Are you flying your -10 yet? If not, then don't assume you can just trim for a certain speed and it will stay. It's no Cessna. I told my instructor, when I was working on my IFR that it was hard to hold altitude accurately. He didn't believe me until he tried. Any slight stick pressure can give you a 500fpm climb or descent. I'm not arguing for using the autopilot, just saying that it isn't as simple as just trimming for a certain airspeed. With almost 700 RV-10 hours I still feel the same way, that I would not fly this plane IFR without an autopilot.

 I am not, but I have yet to fly an airplane that cannot be trimmed for

 an airspeed.  An airplane that cannot be trimmed for an airspeed

 essentially exhibits negative dynamic stability.  I'm sure that's not

 the case for the RV-10.  I've flown everything from Cessnas, to

 turboprops, to jets, and have yet to find an airplane that cannot be

 easily trimmed for airspeed.  Not saying one doesn't exist, but they're

 not normal, and I don't think the RV-10 is one of them.

 Maintaining altitude is a different story.  As long as you've got

 positive dynamic stability, you're still going to get a diminishing set

 of diversions that converge on the airspeed you're trimmed for, though a

 very maneuverable airplane will take more time to stabilize than a less

 maneuverable (more stable) airplane. That doesn't mean it won't trim for

 airspeed, but may hunt a bit for it.  The jets I've flown have all been

 hard to hand-fly in level flight.  When I started flying for the

 airlines, almost all the training the sim was autopilot-centric, and it

 took quite a few hours in the plane to get proficient hand flying it.

 The hardest hand-flown maneuver in an airliner, for me, was leveling off

 from a climb and accelerating to cruise speed with no autopilot or

 flight director.  Very twitchy, the trim very sensitive, the aircraft

 extremely pitch-sensitive to thrust changes, and all equipped with

 flight attendants that will bitch if they can tell you're hand-flying

 while they're walking around.  Still, they're all very easy to trim for

 a stabilized climb/descent at a specific airspeed.  Flying a stabilized

 approach by hand was cake in comparison to flying level.

 So, yes, I can believe that maintaining altitude in an RV-10 (known for

 being maneuverable) is tricky.  I *do* believe that descents are as

 simple as trimming for airspeed in a descent.  If you've got a +/-5 hunt

 for airspeed, close enough!  Maybe even better that it hunts a bit, I'd

 rather you were paying attention to airspeed than trying to restart your

 engine, because maybe you'll land safely.

 As a somewhat snide side remark that I still hope you'll think about for

 a second: If you can't fly an RV-10 IFR without an autopilot, I hope you

 either

 (a) don't fly an RV-10 IFR or

 (b) have two fully redundant autopilots installed.

 Berck

cjay

Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 53

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:34 am Post subject: Re: N62DN

 	  Bob Turner wrote: 	
		  

Now my question I need help on, is prop full aft the best feathering no power glide setting?  Frankly, I'm embarrassed that I don't know this.  



cjay 	




 	  Quote: 	
		   It's not designed to give you best glide,but rather to keep the autopilot from inadvertantly stalling the aircraft. I'd recommend setting the minimum speed closer to 70 kias, in case you want the autopilot to fly an approach at, say, 75 kias. (Trio has the same feature). 	




ok that makes sense, thanks.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Yes, if the engine is windmilling, the rpm within governing range, you have oil pressure, etc., then minimum rpm setting (full out) will give you minimum drag. You can also reduce the drag by full open (forward) throttle. 	




ok thanks, two new questions.  



1.  If the engine stopped for benign reasons, e.g., fuel depletion in one tank, and you switched tanks, won't the wind resistance on the prop jump start the engine?  and if so, is it better to have the prop in max setting or min setting for this?



2. Why does open throttle reduce drag?

cooprv7(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: N62DN

(Sorry if this is a repeat, my first try didn't seem to go through)



    I've been mulling whether to add my .02 to thus, but having experienced a catastrophic engine failure in an RV-6 I'll submit my thoughts.  This is not a critique of what happened in any way as I don't have all the facts, but simply lessons learned from my experience.  As many have said in a number of posts, fly the airplane first, no matter how exciting things get.  I'm not sold on the autopilot use since the airplane trims so nicely, but by all means use whatever it takes to keep flying airspeed.  I flew fighters for 20 years and lived on angle of attack indicators, however in light airplanes the stall and max range speeds really don't vary much within the acceptable weight range so I would argue a solid airspeed cross check and good feel for the airplane is far more important.  The RV-10 has a very subtle stall which is good, but with occasional practice it is still very perceptible.  It is also very important to know the best range airspeed engine out, in my airplane's case it's about 80 knots.  If you are faster when the engine quits, trade airspeed for altitude which will result in time and options.

     As my RV-6 glider was cruising over heavily forested hills in search of a place to land a few important things became clear.  First of all, when it gets grim don't worry about what's best for the airplane, that's what insurance is for.  Do what's best to make sure the pink bodies in the airplane are going to fare as well as possible.  I actually made a conscientious decision that the airplane was a write off and focused on survivability and am very thankful for it. 

    Second, fly the airplane at max range speed until landing is assured where you want to go.  My passenger was a very low time private pilot and as we cruised in silence he recommended a runway off in the distance on an island.  I pointed out that it was rising in the windscreen which means we couldn't make it.  Stretching out a glide by slowing down only works when you are just about to land and have the airspeed above stall to spare, too many accidents have been caused by trying to make the airplane fly farther than aerodynamics will allow.  

    Third, be very sensitive to what the airplane is telling you.  Once I had the small clearing I thankfully found made, I was doing small S turns to eliminate the extra airspeed and altitude.  I had also delayed extending the flaps until landing was assured.  During one of the turns I sensed the tickle of an oncoming accelerated stall and quickly backed off.  The airplane is happy to talk to you, but make sure you are listening.  

    Finally, the accident happened at a time in my flying career when I was most proficient at engine out situations.  As an additional duty I ran the small T-34C program and therefore routinely flew this essentially light airplane fairly often and doing practice engine out approaches was a routine event.  I have to admit I don't practice them now as much as I would advocate, but they are a great idea regardless of one's experience.  Not only for getting the procedures down, but also getting a realistic expectation of how far the airplane will glide and what that looks like out the window.



Enough rambling, hope this helps someone,

Marcus

40286



On Jun 16, 2014, at 0:08, "rv10flyer" <wayne.gillispie(at)gmail.com> wrote:






Does not explain electrical power loss unless maybe he turned it off per his emergency checklist. That will be one of the last items before an off field landing. He was trying to make it that last .7 nm to the airport. I think I will go practice stalls and slow flight with the airspeed tape covered again.



--------

Wayne G.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=424914#424914

bobw

Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 8
Location: Marquette, MI

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:59 am Post subject: N62DN

I guess I'd have to agree with Berck.  I look at an autopilot as an assist not a primary.  With it on it's sort of like having a copilot and I used it frequently to shoot approaches.  But, unless I could actually fly the machine myself and shoot the approach without the autopilot I wouldn't put myself in a situation that the approach was required.  As I have yet to build or even fly one I have paid particular attention to the handling qualities in general as well as the ability to fly it "hands on" in IFR condition.  Based on that it appears to be an excellent choice.  All airplanes require a certain amount of "finesse" to  hand fly and the only way to develop that is to fly it.  



Bob Wilson



--

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Bob Wilson
bob@rjw.cc

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: N62DN

[quote="cjay"] 	  Bob Turner wrote: 	
		  



ok thanks, two new questions.  



1.  If the engine stopped for benign reasons, e.g., fuel depletion in one tank, and you switched tanks, won't the wind resistance on the prop jump start the engine?  and if so, is it better to have the prop in max setting or min setting for this?



2. Why does open throttle reduce drag? 	




1. If you run a tank dry, the mechanical fuel pump, which does not pump air well, won't help much, so RPM doesn't really matter. You'll need the boost pump.



2. Windmilling engine is expending energy pumping air, like a vacuum cleaner. Opening the throttle removes a restriction, raises MP, engine doesn't do as much work.

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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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