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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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 Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
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Depends on what equipment you have. My glass panels draw about 3.7 amps
each. My transponder draw is 0.1 to 0.2 amps. My GTN650 is almost 4
amps, while the SL30 is 0.2-0.3 amps receiving and maybe 1.5
transmitting. My LED strobes and nav lights are a fraction of the old
incandescent nav lights and flash tube strobes. I figure I can fly on
one glass panel and the SL-30 for nav if needed. Given a battery
capacity of over 25 amp hours should give me 3-4 hours in theory. I'd be
happy with half that.
On 8/4/2014 7:38 PM, Linn Walters wrote:
| Quote: | Just depends on what you can shut down .... strobes and transponder
are good current suckers.
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Kelly McMullen
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daviid(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
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Another thing to consider is lithium batteries are notoriously terrible in cold weather. When I was racing motorcycles I had to warm the battery up before it would think about cranking on a cold morning. I would probably install some sort of battery heater to ensure it's operating at max efficiency when it's started for the first time during a cold spell
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 4, 2014, at 9:46 PM, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com (ed.kranz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]You bring up a point I've seen a few people write about, and I admit, I'm not sure I fully understand.
What do we really need starter battery capacity for? I'm planning on a primary and secondary alternator, as well as a backup TCW battery for critical avionics (PFD, GTN, etc). Possibly a second TCW backup battery for electronic ignition, depending on what I decide to do with that. The capacity of the starter battery will become the 4th redundancy in an electrical system failure.
Other than an electrical emergency, isn't the ship's battery capacity mostly just useful for starting the motor? I don't know how many amp-hours is used during, say a 10 second crank.
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, charliewaffles <mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "charliewaffles" <mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com)>
A couple of things come to mind as I am working through this same issue.
The EarthX 36 is LOWER reserve/usable capacity than the PC925. They do not recommend this as a swap for the 925.
I currently have an EarthX 48E sitting on my bench waiting for install. However, my plane is to install it in the tail in the original battery mount. My intent is to remove the dead weight that I can't manage and the impact on CG. I already fly with a 25lb bag of shot when flying solo, so I can easily bump that up to accomodate the 20lb loss. But when I am flying with a full bird, it then becomes weight I can move and affect CG and loading much better. I've already had issues where the plane was loaded to the point that I was close to dropping the tail, so the ability to move that big of a weight moment is very helpful.
EarthX also estimates their batteries to be about an 8 year lifetime, so considerably longer than the Odyssey PC925. So on a yearly basis the numbers should work out to be about the same.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427987#427987
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
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I suppose I can throw in my .02 also, although with depreciation
it may only be worth .01.
I've read the other comments so far, and many people brought
up good points. First, I know of at least one other person who
lives up in the midwest (I can't remember who, but I remember
the conversation) who put a 680 in and found it wasn't quite enough
crank when very cold as it gets up here. They ended up swapping
for a 925. So at the very least, I would buy a larger battery than
gives that equivalent crank in the winter. And don't discount how
LONG it can crank the engine also...if you're flooded in a hot start
situation in the summer, it isn't inconceivable that you could end
up cranking too many times to get started with a smaller battery.
Please, I don't want to re-hash the old hot start procedures
in this thread.
I also have not warmed myself up to the idea of dual EI's. I certainly
think it can be done to a fairly good level, but as of yet I am
not willing to put all of my eggs into the EI basket. Having a mag
is still the most long-term proven thing to get you by when have
zero battery...and no, I'm not considering the phantom p-mag.
I also was lured, early on, into the "lets just buy another alternator"
concept. Check my panel, it's even got Aux Alternator silkscreened on
it. It took me a while to lose all of that crazyness. Sometimes I
think too many people don't follow the K.I.S.S. principle and not only
does it cost them build time, but it costs them lots of money, and it
can make their airplane more complex to even understand, even for the
builder who built it. It's just yet one more system that can fail,
one more piece of hardware that can leave you stranded, and one more
pile of paper out of your wallet.
I liked my aux battery pack, and my PC925 sized battery, and I knew
that would give me comfortable range. If I remember right, my Aux
will run me an hour or so. That's without even relying on the 925.
1 hour in the RV-10 can easily get you over 150nm. Do you think
you can find an airport you can successfully fly an approach to,
somewhere in a 100nm radius of where you are? I criscrossed the
country a few times and I can't remember ever being more than about
50 miles from an airport. I've probably got over 2 hours of
avionics time, if I shed some load, so the batteries alone will
get me on the ground. A dead alternator isn't that big of a deal
if you catch it. A dead battery isn't either, if you have a working
alternator. What's the chance that you'll fail both at the same
time? Not much. And if you have aux batteries, you STILL have
juice. And, take it one more step....what's the chance that even
IF you fail an alternator and battery, that you'll be in IMC
on that flight. In over 1000 hours, I've found IMC to be much more
elusive than VMC. So when you start playing odds, you're looking
at some pretty slim chances of losing everything. I personally believe
that a fairly simple system, will likely be more reliable in the
long run. And, to cap it off, I'm also not opposed to landing on the
road 2 miles off my wing if all heck breaks loose. My original
intention was to fly for a bit, and add the aux alt after I saw
what I had. After a bit, I started to see that I had just gone a
little off the deep end, and was more comfortable with just a
PC925 and aux batteries.
As far as lithium batteries go, I drive one every day to work,
and I'm comfortable with that, but I've watched enough youtube
vids and read enough on the dreamliner to know that I'm not going
to be an early adopter of any Lithium battery. I know that the
single most impossible situation to survive in an airplane is
not that the battery will die flying IFR, but that there will be
a fire in the cockpit, or on the airframe. If it was a fuel
fire, I'd be MORE comfortable, because you may have a chance of
making it out after cranking the red arrow on the tunnel top. But
if your battery does decide to smoke or burn, there is really not
anything you will do to put it out. So if you go Lithium
technologies, also consider the Halon fire extinguisher system
to put near it. I wouldn't put it in MY plane right now, when I'm
flying the family...but if you do, take every precaution. Maybe
after 6 years more of experience, when they're flying in 3000 other
eager beaver's planes, and are more widely adopted by GA manufacturers,
I'll change my mind, but in some things, being an early adopter isn't
my forte'. Fuel systems especially, but anything that can cause
a fire...definitely.
Regarding CG, if you DO go lithium, I think the firewall would
be a good place. Lose the aux alternator and you will still be
fine for CG. Trust me, when you're alone you can always add
baggage ballast (although I personally feel it's unnecessary), but
I have many many more hours where I've FILLED the tail with gear
and could USE the extra CG range aft than I have where I could
have used ballast. I probably fly 10x as much where I carry
lots of baggage than when I carry none...and when I have none, I
still have my tool bag which is maybe 8-10 lbs, and tie downs that
are 8lbs too. Also, if you put the battery on the forward side
of the firewall, I think that would be better, if you're using
lithium. Better yet would be to build a release system into
the battery so if it does start on fire, you can jettison it. But
putting it FWF may keep that fire from bringing you down...maybe.
Either way, I think CG is a non-issue...you could do a PC925
in the rear, or a Lithium in rear or front, and it just doesn't
matter. The Dan Lloyd references don't count for anything, unless
you plan to crimp your battery terminals with a pliers...which
I'm sure is not the case. Bad crimps are what was found that brought
that plane down.
I suppose since I already wrote too much, can keep going with one
more thing...load shedding. What *really* is minimal equipment if you
have an issue while flying...even IFR or VFR. Do you really CARE if
you have a transponder on if you are looking to keep your last bit
of juice? I don't think I do. Do you need strobes, or nav lights?
I don't. Maybe a landing light, 1 nav/com, and 1 GPS would be nice.
I'd want attitude/altitude at minimum too. I don't know all about
the G3X, but I'd think you could have plenty with one screen,
and the associated sensors. One thing I don't know is, do you even
need the GTN to have power? On the Chelton, each box will work
independently if it gets GPS signal from the GADAHRS. If the G3X
is the same, maybe you don't even need the GTN. Certainly if it
is VFR daytime (the most common type of flying) when it happens,
an ipad would suffice as the entire avionics suite, with your eyes
out the window. You don't even need airspeed indication to fly
the airplane.
So that's a lot to digest and think through. Some of the other big
benefits to following the K.I.S.S. principle are: lower cost,
easier to build, quicker to complete, less to troubleshoot later.
Tim
On 8/4/2014 9:31 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | I think the idea is that if you use a starting battery that's a little
bigger than you need for starting, you can also use it as one of the
redundancies. So in your case if you use something with the capacity of
a 925, you might do without the extra alternator.
Another reason for extra starting capacity is that sometimes starting
can be a challenge. Yes, good maintenance and EI can make starting
easier, but extra capacity can be a big help too. I've learned that my
engine, for example, usually fires on a hot start about four blades
after I hear the starter start to complain. And, I can run the panel
for a few minutes with any anxiety about what I'm doing to the battery.
So a little extra is nice to have. So is a ground power plug, big
enough for starting.
Ed, keep in mind that you're proposing a fairly complex system with a
lot of interconnects and maybe a few unknowns. Ideally each component
is transparent and just "works" but in my experience it's usually not
that simple.
--Dave
PP 60A, PC 925, TCW backup for AP & GNS, Internal batts for EFIS 1, 2, &
GPS 2
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com
<mailto:ed.kranz(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
You bring up a point I've seen a few people write about, and I
admit, I'm not sure I fully understand.
What do we really need starter battery capacity for? I'm planning on
a primary and secondary alternator, as well as a backup TCW battery
for critical avionics (PFD, GTN, etc). Possibly a second TCW backup
battery for electronic ignition, depending on what I decide to do
with that. The capacity of the starter battery will become the 4th
redundancy in an electrical system failure.
Other than an electrical emergency, isn't the ship's battery
capacity mostly just useful for starting the motor? I don't know how
many amp-hours is used during, say a 10 second crank.
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, charliewaffles <mcooper(at)live.com
<mailto:mcooper(at)live.com>> wrote:
<mcooper(at)live.com <mailto:mcooper(at)live.com>>
A couple of things come to mind as I am working through this
same issue.
The EarthX 36 is LOWER reserve/usable capacity than the PC925.
They do not recommend this as a swap for the 925.
I currently have an EarthX 48E sitting on my bench waiting for
install. However, my plane is to install it in the tail in the
original battery mount. My intent is to remove the dead weight
that I can't manage and the impact on CG. I already fly with a
25lb bag of shot when flying solo, so I can easily bump that up
to accomodate the 20lb loss. But when I am flying with a full
bird, it then becomes weight I can move and affect CG and
loading much better. I've already had issues where the plane was
loaded to the point that I was close to dropping the tail, so
the ability to move that big of a weight moment is very helpful.
EarthX also estimates their batteries to be about an 8 year
lifetime, so considerably longer than the Odyssey PC925. So on a
yearly basis the numbers should work out to be about the same.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427987#427987
===========
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
*
*
*
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:20 pm Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
|
|
Finally!!!!!!!!!
: )>
something to replace Primer Wars!!!!
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
I suppose I can throw in my .02 also, although with depreciation
it may only be worth .01.
I've read the other comments so far, and many people brought
up good points. First, I know of at least one other person who
lives up in the midwest (I can't remember who, but I remember
the conversation) who put a 680 in and found it wasn't quite enough
crank when very cold as it gets up here. They ended up swapping
for a 925. So at the very least, I would buy a larger battery than
gives that equivalent crank in the winter. And don't discount how
LONG it can crank the engine also...if you're flooded in a hot start
situation in the summer, it isn't inconceivable that you could end
up cranking too many times to get started with a smaller battery.
Please, I don't want to re-hash the old hot start procedures
in this thread.
I also have not warmed myself up to the idea of dual EI's. I certainly
think it can be done to a fairly good level, but as of yet I am
not willing to put all of my eggs into the EI basket. Having a mag
is still the most long-term proven thing to get you by when have
zero battery...and no, I'm not considering the phantom p-mag.
I also was lured, early on, into the "lets just buy another alternator"
concept. Check my panel, it's even got Aux Alternator silkscreened on it. It took me a while to lose all of that crazyness. Sometimes I
think too many people don't follow the K.I.S.S. principle and not only
does it cost them build time, but it costs them lots of money, and it
can make their airplane more complex to even understand, even for the
builder who built it. It's just yet one more system that can fail,
one more piece of hardware that can leave you stranded, and one more
pile of paper out of your wallet.
I liked my aux battery pack, and my PC925 sized battery, and I knew
that would give me comfortable range. If I remember right, my Aux
will run me an hour or so. That's without even relying on the 925.
1 hour in the RV-10 can easily get you over 150nm. Do you think
you can find an airport you can successfully fly an approach to,
somewhere in a 100nm radius of where you are? I criscrossed the
country a few times and I can't remember ever being more than about
50 miles from an airport. I've probably got over 2 hours of
avionics time, if I shed some load, so the batteries alone will
get me on the ground. A dead alternator isn't that big of a deal
if you catch it. A dead battery isn't either, if you have a working
alternator. What's the chance that you'll fail both at the same
time? Not much. And if you have aux batteries, you STILL have
juice. And, take it one more step....what's the chance that even
IF you fail an alternator and battery, that you'll be in IMC
on that flight. In over 1000 hours, I've found IMC to be much more
elusive than VMC. So when you start playing odds, you're looking
at some pretty slim chances of losing everything. I personally believe
that a fairly simple system, will likely be more reliable in the
long run. And, to cap it off, I'm also not opposed to landing on the
road 2 miles off my wing if all heck breaks loose. My original
intention was to fly for a bit, and add the aux alt after I saw
what I had. After a bit, I started to see that I had just gone a
little off the deep end, and was more comfortable with just a
PC925 and aux batteries.
As far as lithium batteries go, I drive one every day to work,
and I'm comfortable with that, but I've watched enough youtube
vids and read enough on the dreamliner to know that I'm not going
to be an early adopter of any Lithium battery. I know that the
single most impossible situation to survive in an airplane is
not that the battery will die flying IFR, but that there will be
a fire in the cockpit, or on the airframe. If it was a fuel
fire, I'd be MORE comfortable, because you may have a chance of
making it out after cranking the red arrow on the tunnel top. But
if your battery does decide to smoke or burn, there is really not
anything you will do to put it out. So if you go Lithium
technologies, also consider the Halon fire extinguisher system
to put near it. I wouldn't put it in MY plane right now, when I'm
flying the family...but if you do, take every precaution. Maybe
after 6 years more of experience, when they're flying in 3000 other
eager beaver's planes, and are more widely adopted by GA manufacturers,
I'll change my mind, but in some things, being an early adopter isn't
my forte'. Fuel systems especially, but anything that can cause
a fire...definitely.
Regarding CG, if you DO go lithium, I think the firewall would
be a good place. Lose the aux alternator and you will still be
fine for CG. Trust me, when you're alone you can always add
baggage ballast (although I personally feel it's unnecessary), but
I have many many more hours where I've FILLED the tail with gear
and could USE the extra CG range aft than I have where I could
have used ballast. I probably fly 10x as much where I carry
lots of baggage than when I carry none...and when I have none, I
still have my tool bag which is maybe 8-10 lbs, and tie downs that
are 8lbs too. Also, if you put the battery on the forward side
of the firewall, I think that would be better, if you're using
lithium. Better yet would be to build a release system into
the battery so if it does start on fire, you can jettison it. But
putting it FWF may keep that fire from bringing you down...maybe.
Either way, I think CG is a non-issue...you could do a PC925
in the rear, or a Lithium in rear or front, and it just doesn't
matter. The Dan Lloyd references don't count for anything, unless
you plan to crimp your battery terminals with a pliers...which
I'm sure is not the case. Bad crimps are what was found that brought
that plane down.
I suppose since I already wrote too much, can keep going with one
more thing...load shedding. What *really* is minimal equipment if you
have an issue while flying...even IFR or VFR. Do you really CARE if
you have a transponder on if you are looking to keep your last bit
of juice? I don't think I do. Do you need strobes, or nav lights?
I don't. Maybe a landing light, 1 nav/com, and 1 GPS would be nice.
I'd want attitude/altitude at minimum too. I don't know all about
the G3X, but I'd think you could have plenty with one screen,
and the associated sensors. One thing I don't know is, do you even
need the GTN to have power? On the Chelton, each box will work
independently if it gets GPS signal from the GADAHRS. If the G3X
is the same, maybe you don't even need the GTN. Certainly if it
is VFR daytime (the most common type of flying) when it happens,
an ipad would suffice as the entire avionics suite, with your eyes
out the window. You don't even need airspeed indication to fly
the airplane.
So that's a lot to digest and think through. Some of the other big
benefits to following the K.I.S.S. principle are: lower cost,
easier to build, quicker to complete, less to troubleshoot later.
Tim
On 8/4/2014 9:31 PM, David Saylor wrote:
| Quote: | I think the idea is that if you use a starting battery that's a little
bigger than you need for starting, you can also use it as one of the
redundancies. So in your case if you use something with the capacity of
a 925, you might do without the extra alternator.
Another reason for extra starting capacity is that sometimes starting
can be a challenge. Yes, good maintenance and EI can make starting
easier, but extra capacity can be a big help too. I've learned that my
engine, for example, usually fires on a hot start about four blades
after I hear the starter start to complain. And, I can run the panel
for a few minutes with any anxiety about what I'm doing to the battery.
So a little extra is nice to have. So is a ground power plug, big
enough for starting.
Ed, keep in mind that you're proposing a fairly complex system with a
lot of interconnects and maybe a few unknowns. Ideally each component
is transparent and just "works" but in my experience it's usually not
that simple.
--Dave
PP 60A, PC 925, TCW backup for AP & GNS, Internal batts for EFIS 1, 2, &
GPS 2
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Ed Kranz <ed.kranz(at)gmail.com (ed.kranz(at)gmail.com)
<mailto:ed.kranz(at)gmail.com (ed.kranz(at)gmail.com)>> wrote:
You bring up a point I've seen a few people write about, and I
admit, I'm not sure I fully understand.
What do we really need starter battery capacity for? I'm planning on
a primary and secondary alternator, as well as a backup TCW battery
for critical avionics (PFD, GTN, etc). Possibly a second TCW backup
battery for electronic ignition, depending on what I decide to do
with that. The capacity of the starter battery will become the 4th
redundancy in an electrical system failure.
Other than an electrical emergency, isn't the ship's battery
capacity mostly just useful for starting the motor? I don't know how
many amp-hours is used during, say a 10 second crank.
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, charliewaffles <mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com)
<mailto:mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com)>> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "charliewaffles"
<mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com) <mailto:mcooper(at)live.com (mcooper(at)live.com)>>
A couple of things come to mind as I am working through this
same issue.
The EarthX 36 is LOWER reserve/usable capacity than the PC925.
They do not recommend this as a swap for the 925.
I currently have an EarthX 48E sitting on my bench waiting for
install. However, my plane is to install it in the tail in the
original battery mount. My intent is to remove the dead weight
that I can't manage and the impact on CG. I already fly with a
25lb bag of shot when flying solo, so I can easily bump that up
to accomodate the 20lb loss. But when I am flying with a full
bird, it then becomes weight I can move and affect CG and
loading much better. I've already had issues where the plane was
loaded to the point that I was close to dropping the tail, so
the ability to move that big of a weight moment is very helpful.
EarthX also estimates their batteries to be about an 8 year
lifetime, so considerably longer than the Odyssey PC925. So on a
yearly basis the numbers should work out to be about the same.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427987#427987
===========
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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EdKranz
Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Hastings, MN
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:54 am Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
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On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Finally!!!!!!!!!
: )>
something to replace Primer Wars!!!
|
Glad I could help!
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Ed Kranz
RV10
Finishing
www.edandcolleen.com |
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bwestfall
Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: Lithium battery on the firewall |
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It’s been bugging me but what primer would one use to paint a LifePo battery? J.
-Ben
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Kranz
Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:54 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Lithium battery on the firewall
On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Deems Davis <deemsdavis(at)cox.net (deemsdavis(at)cox.net)> wrote: | Quote: |
Finally!!!!!!!!!
: )>
something to replace Primer Wars!!!
|
Glad I could help!
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
01234567
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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