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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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When did you purchased this prop Chris? I ran into this issue myself in 2004/2005 time frame. If this shop sold you this prop AFTER that year, then I would offer that they might have committed fraud, plain and simple. That is at least my opinion based on conversations with MT, a few emails from Richard, and more than a few folks in Russia.
And Richard... it would probably be a good thing if MT told the world about these Russian props, that they included the details and their refusal to service them at EVERY SERVICE CENTER OUT THERE, and also put word of it on their WEB SITE along with a complete method by which to identify them.
This would be the responsable and professional thing to do in order to keep their present and potential customers from being burnt. That would be a lot better than an occasional email on the YAK List. That being said, this is yet another reason why I look at MT somewhat askance. Hey, I get that it makes sense to Germans.
Let's look at the facts. You say it was manufactured illegally, did not have MT certification, and by definition is not airworthy.
But in reality, "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a .... um... ah... IT'S A GOOSE"...... well, how are people supposed to KNOW that? I believe the reality is that ORIGINALLY Russia was supposed to be able to LEGALLY manufacture these props, but "the deal fell through" and why that exactly happened is open to a lot of hear-say and interpretation.
Chris got screwed. And MT holds part of the blame. The percentage to be determined.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Chris Ober [christopherjober(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 1:05 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: MT Prop TBO
It was purchased from Aircraft Propeller Services, Inc. in Wheeling, IL. They are a MT approved shop listed on the MT website for certified service shops. Needing service I called them and they informed me that even though they sold it, they cannot service it. They knew exactly what it was (Russian) when they sold it. Only now under direction from MT in Florida (corporate USA) they cannot service the prop. They said they use to be able to service them. Now they can not. It's as simple as that.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 5, 2014, at 11:18 AM, "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
Of course, I know nothing about the particular circumstances of your propeller. But, are you saying that an official MT agent sold you this (Russian) propeller; installed it and now won't support it? Or, are you saying that you obtained the propeller and had it installed on your plane by an MT agent? If the first, then I suggest they have a strong responsibility to continue to support it. But I suspect the practicality is the second case, and if so, I would agree with their position. To be specific, did they know what prop it was before installing it?
Then, you are being rather simplistic to think that MT are going to look for reasons not to service your prop – why on earth would they do that, except in this very particular case of removing props from service that were manufactured illegally; did not have MT certification so were, by definition, not legally airworthy.
Richard
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com<http://www.russianaeros.com/>
I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.
--
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Egon
Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: MT Prop TBO |
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Hi Richard.
Do you have more details on the blade failure Yurgis had with his Whirlwind, eg when, prop model, any results of the investigation? As a Whirlwind owner,
I would be very interested to know what happened.
Cheers Egon.
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:15 pm Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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I am guessing that it was about 10 years ago, and I remember seeing the
fuselage under repair at Sukhoi. The extent of the damage was extraordinary,
and I suspect in a less strong aircraft and at altitude the results could
have been far worse.
As I wrote before, I have heard many good things about Whirlwind props, and
I'm sure they will be able to tell you exactly what happened and what they
have done to prevent any recurrence.
Richard
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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It is clear that MT has handled this poorly with a lack of communication - I
will see what I can do directly with them.
Richard
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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I would say that that is completely unacceptable, and that they have a strong moral and commercial obligation to you to resolve the problem that they have created, even if unwittingly.
I would also suggest that you write directly to Gerd Muhlbauer, the owner of MT and complain directly.
Richard
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christopherjober(at)gmail
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:01 am Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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I've only had my Yak for 8 months. I talked extensively to the previous owner and he is one that purchased the MT prop in late 2001. He had no idea that it was Russian made. They didn't disclose that to him. He had no knowledge of it being made in Russia. He thought he was buying a MT.
After talking with the prop shop, they are unsure if they realized it at the time that it was Russian made. These were being made on a contract to German specs, they were always intended to be genuine MT props.
They made it very clear that they knew that they sold it. However it's MT, not them that won't allow it to be serviced.
Chris
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 5, 2014, at 1:19 PM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
When did you purchased this prop Chris? I ran into this issue myself in 2004/2005 time frame. If this shop sold you this prop AFTER that year, then I would offer that they might have committed fraud, plain and simple. That is at least my opinion based on conversations with MT, a few emails from Richard, and more than a few folks in Russia.
And Richard... it would probably be a good thing if MT told the world about these Russian props, that they included the details and their refusal to service them at EVERY SERVICE CENTER OUT THERE, and also put word of it on their WEB SITE along with a complete method by which to identify them.
This would be the responsable and professional thing to do in order to keep their present and potential customers from being burnt. That would be a lot better than an occasional email on the YAK List. That being said, this is yet another reason why I look at MT somewhat askance. Hey, I get that it makes sense to Germans.
Let's look at the facts. You say it was manufactured illegally, did not have MT certification, and by definition is not airworthy.
But in reality, "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a .... um... ah... IT'S A GOOSE"...... well, how are people supposed to KNOW that? I believe the reality is that ORIGINALLY Russia was supposed to be able to LEGALLY manufacture these props, but "the deal fell through" and why that exactly happened is open to a lot of hear-say and interpretation.
Chris got screwed. And MT holds part of the blame. The percentage to be determined.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Chris Ober [christopherjober(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 1:05 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: MT Prop TBO
It was purchased from Aircraft Propeller Services, Inc. in Wheeling, IL. They are a MT approved shop listed on the MT website for certified service shops. Needing service I called them and they informed me that even though they sold it, they cannot service it. They knew exactly what it was (Russian) when they sold it. Only now under direction from MT in Florida (corporate USA) they cannot service the prop. They said they use to be able to service them. Now they can not. It's as simple as that.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 5, 2014, at 11:18 AM, "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:
Of course, I know nothing about the particular circumstances of your propeller. But, are you saying that an official MT agent sold you this (Russian) propeller; installed it and now won't support it? Or, are you saying that you obtained the propeller and had it installed on your plane by an MT agent? If the first, then I suggest they have a strong responsibility to continue to support it. But I suspect the practicality is the second case, and if so, I would agree with their position. To be specific, did they know what prop it was before installing it?
Then, you are being rather simplistic to think that MT are going to look for reasons not to service your prop – why on earth would they do that, except in this very particular case of removing props from service that were manufactured illegally; did not have MT certification so were, by definition, not legally airworthy.
Richard
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com<http://www.russianaeros.com/>
I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:49 am Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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Richard, I think you offer good advice in your email here, but that said ..... please be aware that I wrote Gerd Muhlbauer myself on this matter rather extensively. In my case it had to do with an AD on some of the screws used in the prop, which I am guessing you might remember.
My take-away from those emails was that MT did not feel they had ANY moral or ANY commercial obligation in this regard, however my circumstances were much different in that I did not have an approved MT shop (listed on their web page) sell or mount the prop on my aircraft. And to be fair, that is a BIG difference as you yourself mentioned.
Being that "The Yak List" has a rather extensive following that includes contact with many owners and prospective buyers of MT props Chris, I think you have a much better chance than most to get some resolution to this matter. Please give a shot to contacting Gerd and keeping the members of this list informed of your progress. I for one, will support your effort in any way that I can.
Mark
--
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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I understand what you say, but the simple fact, as you have explained it anyway, is that these guys sold this propeller and now refuse to service it. This becomes their problem and not yours in my view. Of course, I know nothing of the detail of what happened, but anyone who sells a product and then either refuses to, or is unable to, for whatever reason, service it must come up with a solution to the problem!
I have personally taken up this issue today with Gerd Mulhbauer, and said very forcefully that he needs to get better PR and needs to make sure that customers are far better informed about what has happened and why. But this should not prevent you acting against this original seller.
Richard
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
United Kingdom
Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: MT Prop TBO |
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I agree with Richard,
This is why I FIRST do with business with those that support our planes/group. Doug, Richard, Kimball's, Jill, etc. Thanks all.
Bear
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| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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