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tigeryak18t
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:54 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian expert (Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky telling me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the oil from the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
This might open an interesting discussion.
The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle (same as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all the way until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
I have been doing that for years.  Curious if others ever read it.
Mark
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Didier Tiger YAK18T
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Are you sure about that?
I switch off at 40 % and immediately full throttle so that there are still some revolutions with cooler fuel/air mixture sucked in.
The prop and engine then have enough inertia left to turn a few revolutions in the correct direction so it will actually diminish the risk of "dieseling".
But I'm not a specialist at all. My method works fine for me, since years.
Jan
From: Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)>
Reply-To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Friday 12 September 2014 14:52
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian expert (Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky telling me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the oil from the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>:
[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
This might open an interesting discussion.
The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle (same as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all the way until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
Mark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:30 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Excuse me, but I totally disagree to the point of saying his comment was ridiculous Didier.
1. There is normally no oil in the combustion chamber. Fuel is fed into the combustion chamber ignited and burned at high temperature. When the engine is shut down by ignition it will continue to suck in fuel whether the throttle is open or closed. The tiny amount of fuel that is fed in as the engine rotates to a stop after ignition is killed at approx. 20% is extremely small.
2. The whole idea of piston rings is to seal the combustion chamber. On the Russian pistons, there is actually a 4th ring at the bottom referred to as an "oil scraper ring". The purpose of that ring is to REMOVE any oil that might remain on the cylinder wall as the piston moves up and down. Some of the remaining rings are doing the same thing.
3. This kind of urban legend usually comes from some sort of "truth". In this case, the "truth" or reality if you will... is when you run an engine with an EXTREMELY rich mixture which results in large amounts of unburnt fuel remaining in the cylinder after combustion. This fuel will tend to saturate the piston rings and prevent proper contact which will then cause the rings to "lose their seal". This is referred to as "Washing Out The Rings". Again, this only happens when the engine is running with an extremely rich mixture and NOT when it is shut down by removing ignition and coming to a stop from idle.
There is nothing magic about the M-14P. It uses the same physics to operate as any other engine. Andrei is incorrect about this, and while I am sure he will disagree, you might ask him for a reference. The actual Russian operating procedures from the manufacturer call for this procedure, and while I agree that NOT doing it is really not the end of the world.... doing it will NOT damage the cylinders or rings.
Above and beyond the written procedures, 850 hours on my M-14P with original pistons and rings and compression ratios all in the 70's kind of proves it.
Mark said that "rolling his eyes to the sky". Yes, I know that Russian facial expression very well. 
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dabear
Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:43 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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I’ve been going to full throttle upon shutting off the mags for 16 years and 1600+ hours. Haven’t had ANY issue with the wear on the inside Cyl walls.
Bear
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jan Mevis
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:10 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Are you sure about that?
I switch off at 40 % and immediately full throttle so that there are still some revolutions with cooler fuel/air mixture sucked in.
The prop and engine then have enough inertia left to turn a few revolutions in the correct direction so it will actually diminish the risk of "dieseling".
But I'm not a specialist at all. My method works fine for me, since years.
Jan
From: Didier BLOUZARD <didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)>
Reply-To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Date: Friday 12 September 2014 14:52
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>
Subject: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Regarding opening the throtle, I used to do the same until my russian expert (Andrei Gluckhov) see me doing this and raised his eyes to the sky telling me that it was dangerous to do so because the fuel would rinse the oil from the cylinder and it could make more harm than good!!
So I did stop doing this!!!
Sorry
Didier
2014-09-11 18:37 GMT+02:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>:[quote]
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
This might open an interesting discussion.
The Russian instructions I have call for pulling the engine back to idle (same as you) and right after killing the mags, opening the throttle all the way until the engine stops rotating, and then return to idle.
I have been doing that for years. Curious if others ever read it.
Mark
--
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Steven A. Dalton
Joined: 22 Sep 2013
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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As I recently sold my Yak-52TW it may be inappropriate of me to comment, but:
I owned my Yak with an M-14PF for 13 years. Without fail, EVERY time I moved the throttle full forward at shutdown I experienced a fire in the carb intake. After emptying a Halon bottle to stop the paint on the bottom of the cowling from burning any further I quickly decided this was a bad idea. I NEVER had such an experience with leaving the throttle at idle. YMMV, Batteries not included, past performance is no guarantee of future returns....
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Steve,
What are you flying now besides heavies?
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Sep 16, 2014, at 6:04 PM, "Steven A. Dalton" <flatspins(at)gmail.com> wrote:
As I recently sold my Yak-52TW it may be inappropriate of me to comment, but:
I owned my Yak with an M-14PF for 13 years. Without fail, EVERY time I moved the throttle full forward at shutdown I experienced a fire in the carb intake. After emptying a Halon bottle to stop the paint on the bottom of the cowling from burning any further I quickly decided this was a bad idea. I NEVER had such an experience with leaving the throttle at idle. YMMV, Batteries not included, past performance is no guarantee of future returns....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430643#430643
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:01 pm Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Strange, I have an M14R (450 PS) and I always stop the engine with full
throttle at shutdown.
I cut the mags when I see the oil pressure drop significantly (when
reducing power), and then throttle full forward.
The supercharger in the M14R loads up to 1150 mmHG at maximum so I do get
some fuel.
There must be another reason why it fires in the carb intake.
Jan
On 17/09/14 01:04, "Steven A. Dalton" <flatspins(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
As I recently sold my Yak-52TW it may be inappropriate of me to comment,
but:
I owned my Yak with an M-14PF for 13 years. Without fail, EVERY time I
moved the throttle full forward at shutdown I experienced a fire in the
carb intake. After emptying a Halon bottle to stop the paint on the
bottom of the cowling from burning any further I quickly decided this was
a bad idea. I NEVER had such an experience with leaving the throttle at
idle. YMMV, Batteries not included, past performance is no guarantee of
future returns....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430643#430643
|
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
Mark
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years. Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
[quote] From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
Mark
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:51 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Rico,If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:03 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Thanks Rico for your kind words. My next question is, do you know how to test your fuel shut off without having to run the engine?
Leaking emergency air issue -
First determine if the leak is caused by a leaking emergency air valve or potentially coming from the tank.
- When did you first notice the emergency air was leaking down?
- Have you put any soapy water on the external air fill port after you fill the main and emergency systems?
- What was the last thing you did with the emergency system?
A - Emergency gear extension test?
B - Air bottle removed for pressure testing?
C- Anything else?
Once you answer these questions, we can move on to troubleshooting.
Dennis
-
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 7:51 AM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years. Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> (rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com)
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <yak-list(at)matronics.com> (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
>
> I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
>
> For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:50 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Ditto on the primer hose with my aircraft Dennis. I used to have a fire sleeve covering that line and have since REMOVED it. Why? Because as you have mentioned, if you cannot inspect the line, you really can't tell whether it is time to replace it. It is a good habit for M-14 owners to always look for leaks on this hose, I have replaced mine TWICE.
Mark
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:10 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Sounds like a science teacher to me.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Thanks Rico for your kind words. My next question is, do you know how to test your fuel shut off without having to run the engine?
Leaking emergency air issue -
First determine if the leak is caused by a leaking emergency air valve or potentially coming from the tank.
- When did you first notice the emergency air was leaking down?
- Have you put any soapy water on the external air fill port after you fill the main and emergency systems?
- What was the last thing you did with the emergency system?
A - Emergency gear extension test?
B - Air bottle removed for pressure testing?
C- Anything else?
Once you answer these questions, we can move on to troubleshooting.
Dennis
-
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 7:51 AM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years. Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> (rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com)
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <yak-list(at)matronics.com> (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
>
> I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
>
> For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:31 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Dennis,
Okay, I'll ask since no one has. How do you properly check the fuel shut off valve for proper operation without the engine running? I think I know since we did this on my Yak52,
John Nolan
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:02 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Thanks Rico for your kind words. My next question is, do you know how to test your fuel shut off without having to run the engine?
Leaking emergency air issue -
First determine if the leak is caused by a leaking emergency air valve or potentially coming from the tank.
- When did you first notice the emergency air was leaking down?
- Have you put any soapy water on the external air fill port after you fill the main and emergency systems?
- What was the last thing you did with the emergency system?
   A - Emergency gear extension test?
   B - Air bottle removed for pressure testing?
   C- Anything else?
Once you answer these questions, we can move on to troubleshooting.
Dennis
-
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 7:51 AM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.Â
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
Wausau, WI. 54401 Â Â Â
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url] Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
                                 //
1966 Cessna 150FÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N8558G Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                        //             Â
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N21YK Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                                         Â
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years.  Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> (rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com)
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <yak-list(at)matronics.com> (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
Wausau, WI. 54401 Â Â Â
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url] Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
                                 //
1966 Cessna 150FÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N8558G Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                        //             Â
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N21YK Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                                         Â
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
>
> I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
>
> For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:56 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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|
Not sure about Yak's, but on a CJ, the first and easiest place to check if the emergency tank is running down is the check valve on the firewall.
Dave
In a message dated 9/18/2014 5:52:06 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com writes:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years. Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com>
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Yak-List: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil
[quote] To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
Mark
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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|
Yes, we did. Tell me what you remember. I'll come back to you with any changes/corrections.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 9:31 AM, John Nolan wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
Okay, I'll ask since no one has. How do you properly check the fuel shut off valve for proper operation without the engine running? I think I know since we did this on my Yak52,
John Nolan
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:02 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Thanks Rico for your kind words. My next question is, do you know how to test your fuel shut off without having to run the engine?
Leaking emergency air issue -
First determine if the leak is caused by a leaking emergency air valve or potentially coming from the tank.
- When did you first notice the emergency air was leaking down?
- Have you put any soapy water on the external air fill port after you fill the main and emergency systems?
- What was the last thing you did with the emergency system?
A - Emergency gear extension test?
B - Air bottle removed for pressure testing?
C- Anything else?
Once you answer these questions, we can move on to troubleshooting.
Dennis
-
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 7:51 AM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url]
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years. Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> (rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com)
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <yak-list(at)matronics.com> (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url]
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
>
> I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
>
> For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
|
|
Thanks for sharing your experience Mark. It certainly confirms what I have seen many times.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 8:48 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
[quote] [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil) Ditto on the primer hose with my aircraft Dennis. I used to have a fire sleeve covering that line and have since REMOVED it. Why? Because as you have mentioned, if you cannot inspect the line, you really can't tell whether it is time to replace it. It is a good habit for M-14 owners to always look for leaks on this hose, I have replaced mine TWICE. Mark --
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johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:31 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Dennis,
I know you were going to ask me this. I remember actuating the shut off handle while you visually confirmed the valve did indeed close on the left side firewall. I don't remember if you showed or told me exactly what to look for at that time. I was attempting to have you give us a detailed explanation on how to do the procedure correctly.Â
I'm a first time caller, long time listener to the yak-list. I certainly pay close attention to responses to questions from you, Mark, Richard along with others with the knowledge and experience that we all can learn from.
Thanks for all your help over the past couple of years.
John Nolan
N58YK
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:09 PM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Yes, we did. Tell me what you remember. I'll come back to you with any changes/corrections.
Dennis
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
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On 9/18/2014 9:31 AM, John Nolan wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
Okay, I'll ask since no one has. How do you properly check the fuel shut off valve for proper operation without the engine running? I think I know since we did this on my Yak52,
John Nolan
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 9:02 AM, A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] Thanks Rico for your kind words. My next question is, do you know how to test your fuel shut off without having to run the engine?
Leaking emergency air issue -
First determine if the leak is caused by a leaking emergency air valve or potentially coming from the tank.
- When did you first notice the emergency air was leaking down?
- Have you put any soapy water on the external air fill port after you fill the main and emergency systems?
- What was the last thing you did with the emergency system?
   A - Emergency gear extension test?
   B - Air bottle removed for pressure testing?
   C- Anything else?
Once you answer these questions, we can move on to troubleshooting.
Dennis
-
| Quote: | A. Dennis Savarese
[url=tel:334-285-6263]334-285-6263[/url]
[url=tel:334-546-8182]334-546-8182[/url] (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1 |
On 9/18/2014 7:51 AM, Rico Jaeger wrote:
[quote] Dennis,
I never cease to be amazed at not only how much you know these aircraft, but the detail with which you can back up your explanations. If you would've been my Science teacher is High School - I would've GONE TO CLASS! Thank you for all that. As usual, your email was a thorough tutorial - and very reassuring that the high reading on the gauge can move down on my short list of concerns regarding all things N21YK.Â
Now...on to that pesky leaking emergency air!
THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
Wausau, WI. 54401 Â Â Â
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url] Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
                                 //
1966 Cessna 150FÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N8558G Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                        //             Â
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N21YK Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                                         Â
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:35:35 -0700
From: dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Rico,
If you do the math on what the fuel pressure is on the fuel hoses, based on what the fuel pressure gauge reads, you'll find the fuel pressure to be extremely low compared to the "working" pressure of the fuel hoses.
To do the conversion, multiply whatever the instrument reading is times 14.22 to get PSI. So if your instrument is reading "5" (which is 5 KG/Sq.CM), the fuel pressure is approximately 71 PSI. In no way is this or even a "6" or "10" on the fuel pressure instrument going to cause a flexible fuel hose to burst UNLESS the hose is already deteriorated.
Over the years I have seen many, many fuel hoses deteriorated to the point where if one were to bend or flex the hose, it would literally crack. Folks need to understand there really was a method to the Russian madness about replacing flexible lines every 5 (or 7) years.  Just the same way they should be replaced on our Cessnas, Pipers and Beechcraft standard category airplanes. If one pushes the life limit of these hoses, you can be assured they will deteriorate and ultimately fail, possibly causing serious damage or even life-threatening situations. One of the most susceptible hoses to deterioration on the 52 is the primer hose which is mounted on upper right side (cockpit right) of the firewall. The hose goes all the way over to the left side of the engine and is affixed to a fitting mounted on a bracket on the #2 intake manifold. This hose for some reason, seems to deteriorate much faster than some of the other hoses under the cowling at a point just forward of the firewall. I believe this is due to there being a "heat pocket" up in that corner of the cowling. My recommendation is every time you open the cowl, run your hand over the primer flexible hose. If it is rough and like sandpaper, it probably is a good idea to replace it. How do I know this? Because it happened to me. Luckily I caught it before it became a catastrophy. I had the cowl open and was pushing the primer when I saw fuel spraying out of the top of this hose. Luckily I caught it before it became a disaster.
Speaking of fuel hoses deteriorating, how many folks on the List actually check and VERIFY the fuel shut off is doing what it is suppose to do at least once a year? Other than testing it with the engine running, do you know how to test it without the engine running? You certainly don't want to find out you can't shut off the fuel AFTER the fire starts.
Dennis
From: Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> (rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com)
To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" (yak-list(at)matronics.com) <yak-list(at)matronics.com> (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
As long as this thread has extended into this area...I have gone into this Yak business acutely alert for fire issues, since - some of you may recall - the reason I got into a Yak at all was that I bought mine AFTER a catastrophic engine fire. While I never learned the details 1st hand, it would appear that it happened at start up since I had to siphon what seemed to be full tanks. I was told the working theory was that the flexible fuel line going to the carb had split open, and with a thoroughly oil-soaked engine compartment, the blaze and burn-duration were both impressive to behold.
As it is, my fuel pressure runs slightly high at higher power settings. Should I be worried about slightly higher pressure fatiguing a line or fitting? I would hate to think this may be deja vu...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
Wausau, WI. 54401 Â Â Â
[url=tel:715.529.7426]715.529.7426[/url] Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
                                 //
1966 Cessna 150FÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N8558G Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                        //             Â
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52Â Â Â Â ^/---//-X
N21YK Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â //
                                         Â
> From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
> Subject: RE: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 18:20:24 +0000
>
> --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)
>
> I believe you might have had something wrong with your carb or your engine Steve.
>
> For you to have a fire in the carb intake as you have described, you would need a source of ignition for the fuel. That would require a backfire through the blower to the carb. Lots of reasons that could happen, but none them normal.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --
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Egon
Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Reverse Rotation On Shutdown |
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Ok. I'll have a go.
Pull Fuel Shut Off Handle
Undo Fuel Drain on the bottom of the Fuel Strainer Housing.
If fuel shutoff is working correctly, then just the fuel in the housing should
run out, ie the fuel should stop running fairly quickly.
Undoing the bottom of the strainer housing first and popping the fuel screen out, will not check the fuel shutoff as the fuel should automatically stop running when the filter pops out. ( safety feature )
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