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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:01 pm Post subject: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
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Rico,
I can ditto much of what Mark points out and only add that where you are looking during the landing can have BIG effects on when you flare the airplane. Looking to far down the runway or to close to the airplane will not give you the best depth perception for height. You should move you vision in too and away from the airplane constantly. Looking further down the runway will give you pitch, roll, and yaw cues but height judgement suffers. Looking to close to the airplane, you may get height awareness better but the other parameter lose perception. Keep your vision moving.
Like Mark I have my airplane configured (gear & flaps down) at the perch. My power is about 12-1500 rpm IAS about 85kts. Bank angle is hardly ever over 30 degrees. Trimmed.
Jim "Pappy" Goolsby
In a message dated 9/12/2014 3:03:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Mark,
Hit you w/ my best shot? On the contrary: I'd salute you if my civilian salute carried any weight.
1st of all - and most importantly - THANK YOU for your service to your country. What I wouldn't give to hear some of the amazing stories you could easily spill for hours. Also, it's very humbling to me as I try to find my way amongst those whom have such a rich aviation background. You guys are the reason I READ much more than I could ever contribute - and why I LEARN much more than I may ever be able to teach.
2nd - THANK YOU for this wealth of info. I need to read this a dozen more times to truly digest it, but suffice to say - when I was still just a "lurker" in search of a Yak, I had the perils of "coffin corner" burnt into my brain. I do not lie when I say it resonates within me every time I turn base-to-final now. Love the idea of a "stabilized, trimmed approach." Makes much sense that if you want a good landing, that process should not be complicated by wrestling w/ the airplane to achieve runway center, longitudinal correction, etc. I think that point hit home the most - as I know I am guilty of complacency - often trying to find "the pocket" during flair rather than approach.
To me, THIS is both the beauty and purpose of "The List." I can't speak for everyone, but these convo's really are valuable to me. Not only do they provide great discussion based around a common passion and "a-HA" moments, they also may confirm GOOD practices, as well as inspire ME to 1) fly, and 2) fly BETTER. Sadly, there are times these pages turn into a (politically correct) "Urinating Contest." There are valuable lessons to be learned here - ones that may be missed if one is too intimidated to ask. So from the official "weak link" in your midst, I thank you guys for your patience and wisdom. I have no business being in the Yak business. Therefore you can bet I'm going to go for broke as I attempt to earn my keep.
Now I can't wait to fly...but the 400' ceiling is laughing at me...
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
From: markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Reverse Rotation Denied!
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 11:21:32 -0600
I’ll be the first to bite at this apple. As an old LSO, the key to consistent landings is a stabilized, trimmed up approach. I would suggest lowering your flaps and trimming the aircraft for your approach speed before you begin your turn off the perch. It may require a LITTLE tighter pattern or a LITTLE shorter final because of the additional drag of the flaps. But I strongly recommend a pattern that doesn’t exceed 25-27 degrees angle of bank and a wings level final not less than eight to ten seconds. The turn of less than 30 AOB allows for a little margin for overshooting crosswinds without wrapping it up too tight and the 8-10 second wings level final gives you a little cushion to handle an overshoot and still safely work back to centerline and be stabilized before you begin your flare. Turns off the perch requiring up to 45 degrees AOB require excess airspeed to handle the slight load factor and you end up having to fix a higher than desired airspeed on final. Again not stabilized and may result in issues eating up you interval in a formation recovery or the urge to get it on the deck sooner than desired. I know there are those out there that want to be very tight in the pattern due to the POSSIBLITY of an engine failure. At my home field at 3,320’ with a 3,000’ runway that I normally land on, unless the engine quits abeam the intended point of landing I’m not going to be in a position to land on the remaining runway. It’s a different story for those of you with much longer runways. I’m not advocating a pattern that would look comfortable to a 747 captain. But, I know of two RPA aircraft that have gone down in the pattern due to wrapped up turns to final, but am not aware of any who have perished from losing an engine in the pattern, so I’m a strong advocate of a NOTSO tight pattern particularly in multi ship formations with overshooting crosswinds where everyone rolls out downwind with their interval on their nose and by the time Dash 4 is at the perch, he’s not abeam the intended point of landing, he’s NEARLY OVER the intended point landing. We have vastly differing levels of experience in our RPA community and the desire to hack it by some FNG’s has likely made for some exciting landings and probably a few lost comrades. Every time I go the southern route to our cabin in Colorado I pass the airport at Walsenburg, CO and am saddened by the memory of the father and son that perished there several years ago in their new Nanchang on the way to OSH flying what was, for the density altitude and/or winds that day, too tight of a pattern. So, maybe when we start losing more aircraft in the pattern from engine failures than from wrapped up approach turn stalls I’ll be more inclined to advocate the very tight pattern, until then I’ll stand by a 25-27 degree AOB, trimmed up, stabilized turn that yields consistent and safe results.
Sorry to diverge beyond landings themselves, but the pattern is where it all begins.
As not just an old LSO, but also a Naval Aviator, I can take it just as well as I can dish it out. Hit me with your best shot!
Mark Davis
N44YK
Former Garuda and Guntrain Paddles
P.S. Before I completed this I saw Richard Hess’s comments on airspeeds. They’re the same I use. Bleeding off excess airspeed on short final is easy with the paddle blade prop.
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rico Jaeger
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 9:22 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Reverse Rotation Denied!
Well guys...the throttle-up technique worked 2 for 2 last night. But I also noticed that I was (probably) shutting down w/ my cylinder temp running a little on the hot side. So...more Yak lessons added to an already thick course folder.
NEW TOPIC: May I take a poll regarding approaches? I believe the 52 is a pooch to fly. But my landings are truly erratic. I know most pilots would never admit these quirks (Above ALL else - LOOK SMOOTH) but I range from greasing it in, to 2.5G drops pretty routinely. 'Went up Tuesday and walked away going "Wow. I think I've got this." 'Went up last night and went "Wow. No I don't." In my limited experience, the Yak has spanked me hard enough to humble me completely on numerous occasions. Now, I realize landings are a very personal aspect of flying. Some go full-stall while others maintain a little power and fly down to the runway. Then it seems - no matter what your technique or experience - there are just "those" days. Watching AirVenture arrivals leaps to mind. I'm sure some very capable pilots leave more rubber on 27 than they would've ever predicted. But I cannot and WILL not chime in w/ the runway-side "quarterbacks" critiquing all, while their bacon is planted squarely in a lawn chair. It's not my style to pump up my ego by delighting in the deflation of others'. That said...I want to learn. And since I believe in wisdom and safety over pride - I ask. 
I've been tutored by some of the best, but their methods were often conflicting. The following is an "average" account of what I do for an approach - albeit based on limited experience and still a fairly steep learning curve:
I fly a typical retractable pattern. On downwind I have been going to 80% power, prop fine, carb heat on at the top of downwind, gear down abeam. By the time I'm ready to turn base I'm at about 85 knots. On base I have been bringing power back to 70% and maintaining 80 - 85 knots w/ my descent. As soon as I roll wings level on final - probably 1/4 mile from the numbers, I dump flaps. As I push the nose down this has me at about 75 - 80 knots, reduce power to 60% and as I flair airspeed drops to about 70 and bleeds off. Anything slower - to me - feels very mushy.
Now...if I have "ballast" in back, I've found that I can plant it at just about any airspeed. But if I'm solo, it needs to be as slow and gentle as possible or I have bounced back up - and more than once - gotten into some majorly-ugly oscillations that left me in a go-around situation w/ my vitals uncomfortably elevated.
Please talk to me. Guide me, experienced Yakkers...and as always - THANK YOU!
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
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200 k downwind 70 to 75% leave prop alone rest of landing.
170 k base flaps down trim for hands off
150 k final trim again hands off flight
Hold 150 k use power to hold touchdown point in windshield all
Start flair by rounding out and slowly reduce power
Perfect smooth greaser landing every time.
Need a go round grab a handful of handles and push them forward
Yak has the power and will go. Not like a Stock Cj
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thedicepilot(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
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I agree with Dale's landing list except I use 82% on the prop setting throughout. It gives you additional power if needed in a go around situation and also provides prop air braking to get the airspeeds down for gear and flap extension if you are in a standard pattern (not an overhead break). 160 clicks on base works great. 150 on final to 140 holding the flair. I tend to pull the power a bit sooner for short field practice.
Weeds On Sep 12, 2014 8:01 PM, "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com (dale(at)frii.com)> wrote:[quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Dale" <dale(at)frii.com (dale(at)frii.com)>
200 k downwind 70 to 75% leave prop alone rest of landing.
170 k base flaps down trim for hands off
150 k final trim again hands off flight
Hold 150 k use power to hold touchdown point in windshield all
Start flair by rounding out and slowly reduce power
Perfect smooth greaser landing every time.
Need a go round grab a handful of handles and push them forward
Yak has the power and will go. Not like a Stock Cj
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430467#430467
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Dale
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
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The higher the % the closer the pattern the shorter the glide/drag. Do it at any power setting. I use whatever I enter the pattern at. If cruise setting I just leave it there. I don't load up the prop using it as a speed brake. Just my suggested for a smoother landing. A little more time and a flatter glide angle.
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject: Reverse Rotation Denied!Now Landings. |
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As Dale said. the translated RU pilot's handbook calls for 70% and 40 mm manifold pressure.
As he said anything higher will result in increased drag as you get into the 50 m range on final. Aero braking will shorten your landing roll on touchdown. If you have a "balked" landing grab a hand full go leavers and push them smoothly to the firewall.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Sep 13, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Dale <dale(at)frii.com> wrote:
The higher the % the closer the pattern the shorter the glide/drag. Do it at any power setting. I use whatever I enter the pattern at. If cruise setting I just leave it there. I don't load up the prop using it as a speed brake. Just my suggested for a smoother landing. A little more time and a flatter glide angle.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430495#430495
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