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larkrv10(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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Hi yeah that is exactly what we talked about. I guess it appears we all will have to inspect this area on a regular basis, so maybe high temp RTV is best. Thx Jesse.
Rick
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)> wrote:
[quote]Is he referring to something like JB Weld? As Tim O mentioned, that would make it very hard to remove for inspection later down the road. I think, as others have said, that simply something to keep it from bouncing around as the tension on the elastomers is reduced over time is sufficient.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 16, 2014, at 9:09 PM, Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com (larkrv10(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote: | Hey all
Had a fellow in my assembly facility (garage) today who suggested using epoxy that is specifically made for metal, to bond the doubler plate to the nose gear plate. Has anyone else used epoxy?
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Opinions????
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
Mine came off easily, thanks to the engine oil leaks I've had over
the past year. Thankfully no oil on the rubber elastomers
though.
When I reassembled, I cleaned it all up and also greased inside
the cap, on the upper shaft, on the shim washers, and down to the
very top of the elastomers...hoping that maybe this would
at least help against further shaft wear.
Tim
On 9/16/2014 2:33 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote: | Probably a good idea to grease the inside of the collar before
re-installing. I greased the washer/shim as well. Don't know that there
is much movement or corrosion risk, but why not minimize risk.
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1706 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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I must be missing something. I don't see that there will be any need to
remove the doubler in the future. If the doubler is undamaged and still
in place, I don't see that there would be any need to inspect the
original plate at all. I guess it depends whether you believe the
cracks were caused by the shock disks hammering on the original plate,
or the retainer hammering from the top side, or both. Obviously the key
is to ensure the shock disks are always in compression, even with the
nose wheel off the ground.
Kelly
On 9/17/2014 5:56 AM, Rick Lark wrote:
Quote: | Hi yeah that is exactly what we talked about. I guess it appears we
all will have to inspect this area on a regular basis, so maybe high
temp RTV is best. Thx Jesse.
Rick
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com
<mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>> wrote:
> Is he referring to something like JB Weld? As Tim O mentioned, that
> would make it very hard to remove for inspection later down the road.
> I think, as others have said, that simply something to keep it from
> bouncing around as the tension on the elastomers is reduced over time
> is sufficient.
>
> Jesse Saint
> Saint Aviation, Inc.
> 352-427-0285
> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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speckter(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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When the shock discs compress and then are released the top retaining hat hammers on the plate. The more the discs are compressed and the quicker the release the harder the hammering. Thus it is this builders opinion that the reinforce ing plate needs to be secured to the old plate. Thus I am using both pro seal and Cherrymax rivets to assure the strongest plate possible.
Quote: | On Sep 17, 2014, at 10:11 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
I must be missing something. I don't see that there will be any need to remove the doubler in the future. If the doubler is undamaged and still in place, I don't see that there would be any need to inspect the original plate at all. I guess it depends whether you believe the cracks were caused by the shock disks hammering on the original plate, or the retainer hammering from the top side, or both. Obviously the key is to ensure the shock disks are always in compression, even with the nose wheel off the ground.
Kelly
> On 9/17/2014 5:56 AM, Rick Lark wrote:
> Hi yeah that is exactly what we talked about. I guess it appears we all will have to inspect this area on a regular basis, so maybe high temp RTV is best. Thx Jesse.
> Rick
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Is he referring to something like JB Weld? As Tim O mentioned, that would make it very hard to remove for inspection later down the road. I think, as others have said, that simply something to keep it from bouncing around as the tension on the elastomers is reduced over time is sufficient.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> 352-427-0285
>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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I have a cracked plate and now have the engine off so I can view it easily.
The way I interpret the cracking is that it is from the elastomers
pressing/striking the plate. The plate is clearly deformed by the
pressure/striking. The crack(s) seem to emanate from the hole in the
middle. The material around the hole would be in tension as it
deforms. My guess is that a knick or weak spot around that hole would
be enough to allow the cracking to start.
I'm not clear on how the retainer interacts with the plate... more
inspection required.
Bill "I never wanted to pull the engine until overhaul time" Watson
On 9/17/2014 10:11 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote: |
I must be missing something. I don't see that there will be any need
to remove the doubler in the future. If the doubler is undamaged and
still in place, I don't see that there would be any need to inspect
the original plate at all. I guess it depends whether you believe the
cracks were caused by the shock disks hammering on the original plate,
or the retainer hammering from the top side, or both. Obviously the
key is to ensure the shock disks are always in compression, even with
the nose wheel off the ground.
Kelly
On 9/17/2014 5:56 AM, Rick Lark wrote:
> Hi yeah that is exactly what we talked about. I guess it appears we
> all will have to inspect this area on a regular basis, so maybe high
> temp RTV is best. Thx Jesse.
> Rick
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com
> <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>> wrote:
>
>> Is he referring to something like JB Weld? As Tim O mentioned, that
>> would make it very hard to remove for inspection later down the
>> road. I think, as others have said, that simply something to keep it
>> from bouncing around as the tension on the elastomers is reduced
>> over time is sufficient.
>>
>> Jesse Saint
>> Saint Aviation, Inc.
>> 352-427-0285
>> jesse(at)saintaviation.com <mailto:jesse(at)saintaviation.com>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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tmoushon(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:41 am Post subject: SB nose wheel report |
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I completed the SB for the RV10 today and have a couple observations.
Background: First, the plane is NOT flying... The engine was installed on 7-22-2014 and has had the engine weight on the nose wheel ever since. I installed only one U-1002 isolation washer and when I put on the WD-1015 collar assembly, it was about 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). With the right leverage, the bolt did go in as planned...but very tight.
Today, when I took the pressure off the nose wheel....the bolt slid right out...in fact had about .030 gap....meaning my assembly with only ONE isolation washer was loose. I added the painted doubler and RTV and reassembled it to find it was again 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). After a little coaxing again, it fit just fine. So just the weight of the engine and a couple months compressed the elastomers enough to make it loose when the weight is removed. As I am at least 12 months from flying, I plan to check it one more time just before I take to the sky.
Terry
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: SB nose wheel report |
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Interesting.... I've been flying for 180 hours on a grass strip and with one washer mine was still tight when I disassembled for the addition of the SB plate....
-Mike
Sent from my iPhone
Quote: | On Sep 17, 2014, at 3:40 PM, Terry Moushon <tmoushon(at)gmail.com> wrote:
I completed the SB for the RV10 today and have a couple observations.
Background: First, the plane is NOT flying... The engine was installed on 7-22-2014 and has had the engine weight on the nose wheel ever since. I installed only one U-1002 isolation washer and when I put on the WD-1015 collar assembly, it was about 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). With the right leverage, the bolt did go in as planned...but very tight.
Today, when I took the pressure off the nose wheel....the bolt slid right out...in fact had about .030 gap....meaning my assembly with only ONE isolation washer was loose. I added the painted doubler and RTV and reassembled it to find it was again 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). After a little coaxing again, it fit just fine. So just the weight of the engine and a couple months compressed the elastomers enough to make it loose when the weight is removed. As I am at least 12 months from flying, I plan to check it one more time just before I take to the sky.
Terry
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1706 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: SB nose wheel report |
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While not flying yet, my engine has been mounted for about 18 months,
and nose was still plenty tight with 1 washer, and required perhaps more
than 100lbs up force on the tail to adequately compress nose to install
the top hat...more than it took to originally assemble the nose gear.
On 9/17/2014 5:40 PM, Michael Kraus wrote:
Quote: |
Interesting.... I've been flying for 180 hours on a grass strip and with one washer mine was still tight when I disassembled for the addition of the SB plate....
-Mike
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2014, at 3:40 PM, Terry Moushon <tmoushon(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I completed the SB for the RV10 today and have a couple observations.
> Background: First, the plane is NOT flying... The engine was installed on 7-22-2014 and has had the engine weight on the nose wheel ever since. I installed only one U-1002 isolation washer and when I put on the WD-1015 collar assembly, it was about 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). With the right leverage, the bolt did go in as planned...but very tight.
> Today, when I took the pressure off the nose wheel....the bolt slid right out...in fact had about .030 gap....meaning my assembly with only ONE isolation washer was loose. I added the painted doubler and RTV and reassembled it to find it was again 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). After a little coaxing again, it fit just fine. So just the weight of the engine and a couple months compressed the elastomers enough to make it loose when the weight is removed. As I am at least 12 months from flying, I plan to check it one more time just before I take to the sky.
> Terry
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_________________ Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: SB nose wheel report |
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Did the SB today. No cracks. One washer was not adequate - two required a little upward force on the tail. I had two washers in before the SB.
Carl
Quote: | On Sep 17, 2014, at 8:48 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
While not flying yet, my engine has been mounted for about 18 months, and nose was still plenty tight with 1 washer, and required perhaps more than 100lbs up force on the tail to adequately compress nose to install the top hat...more than it took to originally assemble the nose gear.
> On 9/17/2014 5:40 PM, Michael Kraus wrote:
>
>
> Interesting.... I've been flying for 180 hours on a grass strip and with one washer mine was still tight when I disassembled for the addition of the SB plate....
> -Mike
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 17, 2014, at 3:40 PM, Terry Moushon <tmoushon(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I completed the SB for the RV10 today and have a couple observations.
>> Background: First, the plane is NOT flying... The engine was installed on 7-22-2014 and has had the engine weight on the nose wheel ever since. I installed only one U-1002 isolation washer and when I put on the WD-1015 collar assembly, it was about 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). With the right leverage, the bolt did go in as planned...but very tight.
>> Today, when I took the pressure off the nose wheel....the bolt slid right out...in fact had about .030 gap....meaning my assembly with only ONE isolation washer was loose. I added the painted doubler and RTV and reassembled it to find it was again 1/2 bolt hole off (tight). After a little coaxing again, it fit just fine. So just the weight of the engine and a couple months compressed the elastomers enough to make it loose when the weight is removed. As I am at least 12 months from flying, I plan to check it one more time just before I take to the sky.
>> Terry
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toaster73(at)embarqmail.c Guest
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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How about this thought....
I would think if the doubler does its job, (it really is just serving as a giant) that the next problem which would be seen is a crack in the welds on the tubes. The doubler /washer is going to transfer the load out across the flat plate surface and now the welds could pick up more of the cyclic  load that the insufficient thickness current plate was experiencing. The current plate most likely developed its cracks due to the cyclic bending in its center and outward thus preventing the welds from taking on the entire cyclic loads. Â
It will be interesting to see, if in many many hours on from now for the rough field flyers, if they start to get cracks in the welds. This fix is just transferring the problem out to the welds and tubes, which of course if done right won't be a problem, because the load will be transferred better to the welds and the tubes - hopefully all of those items will have a much higher fatigue life which we will never see the end of.
I would see no reason not to JB Weld it- if there is a problem in that area again it will be in the welds I suspect or tubes -not likely (hopefully).
-Chris
N919AR
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jesse Saint
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 10:21 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report
Is he referring to something like JB Weld? As Tim O mentioned, that would make it very hard to remove for inspection later down the road. I think, as others have said, that simply something to keep it from bouncing around as the tension on the elastomers is reduced over time is sufficient.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
352-427-0285
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 16, 2014, at 9:09 PM, Rick Lark <larkrv10(at)gmail.com (larkrv10(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote: |
Hey all
Had a fellow in my assembly facility (garage) today who suggested using epoxy that is specifically made for metal, to bond the doubler plate to the nose gear plate. Has anyone else used epoxy?
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Opinions????
Rick
#40956
Southampton, Ont
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>
Mine came off easily, thanks to the engine oil leaks I've had over
the past year. Thankfully no oil on the rubber elastomers
though.
When I reassembled, I cleaned it all up and also greased inside
the cap, on the upper shaft, on the shim washers, and down to the
very top of the elastomers...hoping that maybe this would
at least help against further shaft wear.
Tim
On 9/16/2014 2:33 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
Probably a good idea to grease the inside of the collar before
re-installing. I greased the washer/shim as well. Don't know that there
is much movement or corrosion risk, but why not minimize risk.
====================================
-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
====================================
FORUMS -
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===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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| 0123456789 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 0 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 1 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 2 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 3 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 4 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 5 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 6 Quote: | D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D | 7
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glastar(at)gmx.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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Thanks Bill,
interesting, your crack pattern is totally different to the others,
without disassembling you would not find it!
And I wonder, it seems the compression under load did crack inside the
dynafocal ring, so the plate will add some stiffness, but the load
transfer to the ring would only be fully covered by welding another ring
inside the dynafocal cup (like in the crack fix).
So for "non cracked" the same repair might be the better approach....
Time will tell and this will as well request a total disassembly of the
nose gear strut for inspection every then and now to detect your type of
failure...
Cheers Werner
On 13.09.2014 19:54, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote: | Nose Wheel Mount Status: Cracked at 3rd Condition Inspection. 4 donuts
installed since first flight. There was play in link assembly when
weight is removed from nosewheel
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
|
|
Yes it is quite true, disassembly is required. The SB correctly
requires disassembly to determine whether there is cracking.
Upon closer inspection I can see a number of hairline cracks radiating
out from the hole. There are 3 main cracks at 90 degrees from each
other and a number of smaller hairline cracks. There is significant
deformation of the plate itself. I have a strong sense that the
deformation causes expansion and therefore tension around the
circumference of the hole which leads to the cracking. As I've said
previously, I base out of a relatively rough field that contributed to a
cracked front wheel found during last year's condition inspection.
There is no doubt that the 'crack fix' is much more substantial than the
'doubler-only fix'. Is it worth the extra cost and effort if not cracks
are found? I doubt it because while the cracks are inevitable if the
plate is deformed, they will not occur at all if the plate remains
relatively 'un-deformed' and flat. Adding the doubler should insure
that the plates do not deform and therefore should not crack.
So my thinking is:
- if I had a flying aircraft with no cracks, adding the doubler will
adequately ensure no deformation in the future. After all, there are
many '10s flying many more hours than mine without any cracking (and
presumably little or no deformation) using the current design.
- If I had a non-flying plane with the engine installed, I'd add the
doubler and fly.
- If I have a non-flying plane with engine in the box, I'd be hard
pressed not to exchange it for the new design, whatever that is.
..just my very uninformed and qualitative opinion
Bill "both airport owners are welders so I've taken them thru my SB woes
looking for welding help and NOT to foment guilt" Watson
On 9/18/2014 5:31 PM, Werner Schneider wrote:
Quote: |
Thanks Bill,
interesting, your crack pattern is totally different to the others,
without disassembling you would not find it!
And I wonder, it seems the compression under load did crack inside the
dynafocal ring, so the plate will add some stiffness, but the load
transfer to the ring would only be fully covered by welding another
ring inside the dynafocal cup (like in the crack fix).
So for "non cracked" the same repair might be the better approach....
Time will tell and this will as well request a total disassembly of
the nose gear strut for inspection every then and now to detect your
type of failure...
Cheers Werner
On 13.09.2014 19:54, Bill Watson wrote:
> Nose Wheel Mount Status: Cracked at 3rd Condition Inspection. 4 donuts
> installed since first flight. There was play in link assembly when
> weight is removed from nosewheel
>
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 885 Location: Castro Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:13 am Post subject: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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Bill points out an alternative means of compliance: buy a new, improved engine mount from Vans.
Has anyone priced this out? I could not find it on Vans "list".
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RV-10 QB |
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jdriggs49(at)msn.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:29 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
|
|
I have had to buy a new because of the extensive damage caused to the front end when the nose gear failed.
$1100 and still waiting!
Quote: | Subject: RV10-List: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report
From: bobturner@alum.rpi.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 11:13:08 -0700
To: rv10-list@matronics.com
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner@alum.rpi.edu>
Bill points out an alternative means of compliance: buy a new, improved engine mount from Vans.
Has anyone priced this out? I could not find it on Vans "list".
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430792#430792
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[quote][b]
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arplnplt(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:57 am Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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|
I have about 300 hours and found no cracks while completing the SB. #40496, first flight in March 2011, only landed on grass twice so far.
However, after reading Gary’s post regarding the hammering affect of the cap on the top of the plate has anyone considered replacing the spacer washer with a soft washer to cushion the hammering?
Dave Leikam
On Sep 19, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:
Quote: |
Yes it is quite true, disassembly is required. The SB correctly requires disassembly to determine whether there is cracking.
Upon closer inspection I can see a number of hairline cracks radiating out from the hole. There are 3 main cracks at 90 degrees from each other and a number of smaller hairline cracks. There is significant deformation of the plate itself. I have a strong sense that the deformation causes expansion and therefore tension around the circumference of the hole which leads to the cracking. As I've said previously, I base out of a relatively rough field that contributed to a cracked front wheel found during last year's condition inspection.
There is no doubt that the 'crack fix' is much more substantial than the 'doubler-only fix'. Is it worth the extra cost and effort if not cracks are found? I doubt it because while the cracks are inevitable if the plate is deformed, they will not occur at all if the plate remains relatively 'un-deformed' and flat. Adding the doubler should insure that the plates do not deform and therefore should not crack.
So my thinking is:
- if I had a flying aircraft with no cracks, adding the doubler will adequately ensure no deformation in the future. After all, there are many '10s flying many more hours than mine without any cracking (and presumably little or no deformation) using the current design.
- If I had a non-flying plane with the engine installed, I'd add the doubler and fly.
- If I have a non-flying plane with engine in the box, I'd be hard pressed not to exchange it for the new design, whatever that is.
...just my very uninformed and qualitative opinion
Bill "both airport owners are welders so I've taken them thru my SB woes looking for welding help and NOT to foment guilt" Watson
On 9/18/2014 5:31 PM, Werner Schneider wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Bill,
>
> interesting, your crack pattern is totally different to the others, without disassembling you would not find it!
>
> And I wonder, it seems the compression under load did crack inside the dynafocal ring, so the plate will add some stiffness, but the load transfer to the ring would only be fully covered by welding another ring inside the dynafocal cup (like in the crack fix).
>
> So for "non cracked" the same repair might be the better approach....
>
> Time will tell and this will as well request a total disassembly of the nose gear strut for inspection every then and now to detect your type of failure...
>
> Cheers Werner
>
> On 13.09.2014 19:54, Bill Watson wrote:
>
>> Nose Wheel Mount Status: Cracked at 3rd Condition Inspection. 4 donuts
>> installed since first flight. There was play in link assembly when
>> weight is removed from nosewheel
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>
>
|
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dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 455 Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report |
|
|
arplnplt(at)gmail.com wrote: | I have about 300 hours and found no cracks while completing the SB. #40496, first flight in March 2011, only landed on grass twice so far.
However, after reading Gary�s post regarding the hammering affect of the cap on the top of the plate has anyone considered replacing the spacer washer with a soft washer to cushion the hammering?
Dave Leikam
|
Will there be a hammering effect if the preload is maintained on the rubber elastomers with the use of the U-1002 isolator washers?
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_________________ David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL |
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speckter(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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A rubber or similar cushion on the top side of the plate under the hat would not help much. The force of the hat heading downward from the compression of the elastomers is cancelled out by the remaining compression on elastomers. However what is not cancelled out is the mass of the gear,wheel, pant etc accelerating downward. That is what causes the hat to hammer the top of the plate which flexes slightly downward and then is flexed back upward by the next compression of the elastomers. A classic case of metal fatigue. The thicker plate if adhered properly by either welding or rivets will solve that issue. That is this builders analysis.
Gary
From: dmaib(at)me.com
To: "rv10-list(at)matronics.com" <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 11:51:56 AM
Subject: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report
--> RV10-List message posted by: "dmaib(at)me.com" <dmaib(at)me.com>
arplnplt(at)gmail.com wrote:
Quote: | I have about 300 hours and found no cracks while completing the SB. #40496, first flight in March 2011, only landed on grass twice so far.
However, after reading GaryĂ¯Â¿Â½s post regarding the hammering affect of the cap on the top of the plate has anyone considered replacing the spacer washer with a soft washer to cushion the hammering?
Dave Leikam
|
Will there be a hammering effect if the preload is maintained on the rubber elastomers with the use of the U-1002 isolator washers?
--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430828#430828
bsp; -================
[quote][b]
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009 Posts: 885 Location: Castro Valley, CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: SB Nose Wheel Report |
|
|
Gary is correct; on the down stroke the impulse load delivered from the top hat/washer to the plate is due to the momentum of the nose gear assembly, which has been accelerated downward due to the compressed donuts.
This is an interesting engineering problem which is very complicated. I've just started to think about it, but my thoughts are as follows. In the real world, everything bends (a little). If you hit a bump, the tire flexes, the nose gear flexes, and if the force applied to the donuts exceeds their static loading (weight on them, plus preload), they compress and the top hat goes up. Now if the back side of the bump ends abruptly, the donuts and the slightly flexed nose gear, plus gravity (pretty negligible here) accelerate the tire downwards. But in the meantime the tire is somewhat unloaded, and expands to a more-round shape (especially since it's rotating). If the ground is the same height as before the bump, the tire hits slightly before the hat; the tire compresses and then the hat hits. So there is some shock absorption. OTOH if the bump is followed by a "hole", the wheel is driven downward until the top hat hits. All this depends on the time constants involved (how fast, how wide is the bump, etc.).
With no calculation at all, my gut feeling is that if the hat was hitting hard enough to damage the plate, we would also be seeing damage to the AN5 bolt that ties it to the donut shaft. (They both see the same load).
I do not see the value of gluing the new plate to the old plate, as far as the downward load imposed by the hat is concerned. In all cases that new plate is being held up against the mount by hundreds, I think, of pounds of force, from the compressed donuts; more than RTV could ever hold. The glue may be useful for keeping the plate from creeping against the other parts of the mount over time. But frankly I don't see that happening, unless you grease both sides of the new plate.
I need to think about this some more.
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RV-10 QB |
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speckter(at)comcast.net Guest
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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|
This is a great expansion of my thoughts. Thus my recommendation of riveting or welding the new plate.
The bolt on the hat is in shear and thus not susceptible to the flexion that affects the plate. It is the flexion that causes the thin plate to flex and thus to fail.
Gary
Quote: | On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:00 PM, "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
Gary is correct; on the down stroke the impulse load delivered from the top hat/washer to the plate is due to the momentum of the nose gear assembly, which has been accelerated downward due to the compressed donuts.
This is an interesting engineering problem which is very complicated. I've just started to think about it, but my thoughts are as follows. In the real world, everything bends (a little). If you hit a bump, the tire flexes, the nose gear flexes, and if the force applied to the donuts exceeds their static loading (weight on them, plus preload), they compress and the top hat goes up. Now if the back side of the bump ends abruptly, the donuts and the slightly flexed nose gear, plus gravity (pretty negligible here) accelerate the tire downwards. But in the meantime the tire is somewhat unloaded, and expands to a more-round shape (especially since it's rotating). If the ground is the same height as before the bump, the tire hits slightly before the hat; the tire compresses and then the hat hits. So there is some shock absorption. OTOH if the bump is followed by a "hole", the wheel is driven downward until the top hat hits. All this depends on the time constants involved (how fast,!
how wide is the bump, etc.).
With no calculation at all, my gut feeling is that if the hat was hitting hard enough to damage the plate, we would also be seeing damage to the AN5 bolt that ties it to the donut shaft. (They both see the same load).
I do not see the value of gluing the new plate to the old plate, as far as the downward load imposed by the hat is concerned. In all cases that new plate is being held up against the mount by hundreds, I think, of pounds of force, from the compressed donuts; more than RTV could ever hold. The glue may be useful for keeping the plate from creeping against the other parts of the mount over time. But frankly I don't see that happening, unless you grease both sides of the new plate.
I need to think about this some more.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430838#430838
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011 Posts: 381
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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|
Could it be fastened with screws and made more resilient than rivets?
Haven't done the modification yet and I don't have the parts in my hand to know if it's possible....
Sent from my iPhone
Quote: | On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:13 PM, Gary <speckter(at)comcast.net> wrote:
This is a great expansion of my thoughts. Thus my recommendation of riveting or welding the new plate.
The bolt on the hat is in shear and thus not susceptible to the flexion that affects the plate. It is the flexion that causes the thin plate to flex and thus to fail.
Gary
> On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:00 PM, "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Gary is correct; on the down stroke the impulse load delivered from the top hat/washer to the plate is due to the momentum of the nose gear assembly, which has been accelerated downward due to the compressed donuts.
>
> This is an interesting engineering problem which is very complicated. I've just started to think about it, but my thoughts are as follows. In the real world, everything bends (a little). If you hit a bump, the tire flexes, the nose gear flexes, and if the force applied to the donuts exceeds their static loading (weight on them, plus preload), they compress and the top hat goes up. Now if the back side of the bump ends abruptly, the donuts and the slightly flexed nose gear, plus gravity (pretty negligible here) accelerate the tire downwards. But in the meantime the tire is somewhat unloaded, and expands to a more-round shape (especially since it's rotating). If the ground is the same height as before the bump, the tire hits slightly before the hat; the tire compresses and then the hat hits. So there is some shock absorption. OTOH if the bump is followed by a "hole", the wheel is driven downward until the top hat hits. All this depends on the time constants involved (how fas!
t,!
> how wide is the bump, etc.).
> With no calculation at all, my gut feeling is that if the hat was hitting hard enough to damage the plate, we would also be seeing damage to the AN5 bolt that ties it to the donut shaft. (They both see the same load).
>
> I do not see the value of gluing the new plate to the old plate, as far as the downward load imposed by the hat is concerned. In all cases that new plate is being held up against the mount by hundreds, I think, of pounds of force, from the compressed donuts; more than RTV could ever hold. The glue may be useful for keeping the plate from creeping against the other parts of the mount over time. But frankly I don't see that happening, unless you grease both sides of the new plate.
>
> I need to think about this some more.
>
> --------
> Bob Turner
> RV-10 QB
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430838#430838
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 1188 Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: SB Nose Wheel Report |
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Well, keep in mind that the Mooney M20 series and Beech 23/24 series use these same donuts, and are generally retained by a metal plate, a collar and an AN-5 bolt. I'm not aware of any problems with those installations. If anything, I suspect that Van's may not have specified a large enough pre-load force.
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>
With no calculation at all, my gut feeling is that if the hat was hitting hard enough to damage the plate, we would also be seeing damage to the AN5 bolt that ties it to the donut shaft. (They both see the same load).
I do not see the value of gluing the new plate to the old plate, as far as the downward load imposed by the hat is concerned. In all cases that new plate is being held up against the mount by hundreds, I think, of pounds of force, from the compressed donuts; more than RTV could ever hold. The glue may be useful for keeping the plate from creeping against the other parts of the mount over time. But frankly I don't see that happening, unless you grease both sides of the new plate.
I need to think about this some more.
--------
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=430838#430838
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