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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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 Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: PC680 vs PC925 |
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Wouldn't have happened if Cessna made a better choice for primer paint. 8^))
(asbestos suit on and ducking)
On 2/25/2015 11:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
| Quote: |
It did and I didn't look to confirm it. That's why I said an EIS would have prevented it because it would have flagged and over voltage annunciation and chimed my headset. It wouldn't have been missed with a running EIS.
Phil
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Phil, I am assuming that the Cessna had the engine information available at start up and guessing that it still did not help you prevent the melt down. Yes, there are times that malfunction happens at the worst time but is it worth all the complexities to prevent a rare event. In my many yes and hrs of flying, I never witnessed one on my plane and others.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Operating a dual dual system is really easy. There's very little that needs to be learned beyond throwing a switch. It's good to know the system, but it's really not a burden. The complexity is really a matter of understanding the wiring. That's the part that most people get intimidated by.
>>
>> As far as EIS, we've always had oil pressure monitoring from the second he engine started it was just performed via an analog gauge. I have seen Lycoming's that failed to produce oil pressure (or enough pressure to get in the green) after engine start. That's why the gauge is there and every engine manual and pre-flight checklist says to start the engine, set the RPM, and confirm oil pressure in the green. Without an operating EIS, you don't have RPM or pressure information.
>>
>> Also, I can personally attest to the value of seeing voltage information in addition to oil/engine information. I melted down a C-152'a panel and caused a small fire when I was doing my flight training. The starter bendix never disengaged from the flywheel and when I added power to adjust the RPM, the starter became an unregulated generator. It dumped unregulated high voltages back into the electrical system smoking some equipment, lots of wires, and causing fire damage behind the panel. It was a terrible experience.
>>
>> If I had voltage information from the start, I would have been alerted that there was higher than normal voltage on the buss and I would have known to shut it down and investigate more.
>>
>> So there is value in having that information available. In that cassette would have saved the FBO some $$ and kept their plane in service. For me, it was just a lesson learned to check those voltages (with the alt off) while checking oil pressures after engine start.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder why everyone is concerned over oil pressure at startup? If the plane behaved when it was shut down, why would it not at start up?
>>>
>>> I also wonder why everyone is making their system so complicated.
>>>
>>> Don't mean to criticize. I am thinking that others have had experienced that I have not had and perhaps all the efforts are based on past events.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Do not archive.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:03 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wonder why most of the people are so heavily looking at the engine monitor being up on start?
>>>> On my Glastar I have in // to the EMS a pressure switch which comes alive I think with 25 or 30 psi, that linked
>>>> to a LED shows me immediately on start up if the oil pressure comes up and it is a very cheap (and the only)
>>>> backup for my EMS.
>>>>
>>>> And then my Dynon D10 EMS does take less then 10 sec to reboot on start up.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>
>>>>> On 25.02.2015 04:19, nukeflyboy wrote:
>>>>> ... On engine start you will want to see your engine monitor so reboots are a PITA.
>
>
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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woxofswa
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 349
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: PC680 vs PC925 |
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I hate the weight and cost of batteries. I went with a ground (piper style) plug instead of a second battery. Sure made it convenient during the build powered by a surplus car battery on the hangar floor. In my experience I've never been dead in the air ever, but been dead on the ground several times. Never in the -10, but I have had to jump someone else. We are all creatures of past experience (or reading exploits of others), but IMHO we sometimes way over complicate things. (Myself included). Sometimes adding more fail safe just creates more elements to fail. The best alternative to airline level redundancy is to not get positioned to where you need that level or simply take the airlines if things are that dicey.
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Myron Nelson
Mesa, AZ
Flew May 10 2014 |
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philperry9
Joined: 23 Nov 2011
Posts: 381
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:09 pm Post subject: PC680 vs PC925 |
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Absolutely Kelly?
Clearly a chromate could reduce the risk of a reboot. However an alodine would do the same thing with easier application but less resistance to abrasion.
Using Alodine and chromate as a combination would keep the electrons flowing well enough that reboots can be avoided; even in over square operations.
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
Wouldn't have happened if Cessna made a better choice for primer paint. 8^))
(asbestos suit on and ducking)
> On 2/25/2015 11:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>
>
> It did and I didn't look to confirm it. That's why I said an EIS would have prevented it because it would have flagged and over voltage annunciation and chimed my headset. It wouldn't have been missed with a running EIS.
>
> Phil
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil, I am assuming that the Cessna had the engine information available at start up and guessing that it still did not help you prevent the melt down. Yes, there are times that malfunction happens at the worst time but is it worth all the complexities to prevent a rare event. In my many yes and hrs of flying, I never witnessed one on my plane and others.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Operating a dual dual system is really easy. There's very little that needs to be learned beyond throwing a switch. It's good to know the system, but it's really not a burden. The complexity is really a matter of understanding the wiring. That's the part that most people get intimidated by.
>>>
>>> As far as EIS, we've always had oil pressure monitoring from the second he engine started it was just performed via an analog gauge. I have seen Lycoming's that failed to produce oil pressure (or enough pressure to get in the green) after engine start. That's why the gauge is there and every engine manual and pre-flight checklist says to start the engine, set the RPM, and confirm oil pressure in the green. Without an operating EIS, you don't have RPM or pressure information.
>>>
>>> Also, I can personally attest to the value of seeing voltage information in addition to oil/engine information. I melted down a C-152'a panel and caused a small fire when I was doing my flight training. The starter bendix never disengaged from the flywheel and when I added power to adjust the RPM, the starter became an unregulated generator. It dumped unregulated high voltages back into the electrical system smoking some equipment, lots of wires, and causing fire damage behind the panel. It was a terrible experience.
>>>
>>> If I had voltage information from the start, I would have been alerted that there was higher than normal voltage on the buss and I would have known to shut it down and investigate more.
>>>
>>> So there is value in having that information available. In that cassette would have saved the FBO some $$ and kept their plane in service. For me, it was just a lesson learned to check those voltages (with the alt off) while checking oil pressures after engine start.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder why everyone is concerned over oil pressure at startup? If the plane behaved when it was shut down, why would it not at start up?
>>>>
>>>> I also wonder why everyone is making their system so complicated.
>>>>
>>>> Don't mean to criticize. I am thinking that others have had experienced that I have not had and perhaps all the efforts are based on past events.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Do not archive.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:03 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wonder why most of the people are so heavily looking at the engine monitor being up on start?
>>>>> On my Glastar I have in // to the EMS a pressure switch which comes alive I think with 25 or 30 psi, that linked
>>>>> to a LED shows me immediately on start up if the oil pressure comes up and it is a very cheap (and the only)
>>>>> backup for my EMS.
>>>>>
>>>>> And then my Dynon D10 EMS does take less then 10 sec to reboot on start up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25.02.2015 04:19, nukeflyboy wrote:
>>>>>> ... On engine start you will want to see your engine monitor so reboots are a PITA.
|
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Kellym
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:57 pm Post subject: PC680 vs PC925 |
|
|
I think battery choice and electrical circuit design are diverse enough
to be like primer wars.
Very few wrong answers, lots of opinions, all which may be correct for
one builder with one primary mission, but not necessarily correct for
the 95% or more with different visions of what is correct for them. At
least the topic put some life into what had become a rather stagnant
bunch of threads.
On 2/25/2015 4:05 PM, Phillip Perry wrote:
| Quote: |
Absolutely Kelly?
Clearly a chromate could reduce the risk of a reboot. However an alodine would do the same thing with easier application but less resistance to abrasion.
Using Alodine and chromate as a combination would keep the electrons flowing well enough that reboots can be avoided; even in over square operations.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:55 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Wouldn't have happened if Cessna made a better choice for primer paint. 8^))
> (asbestos suit on and ducking)
>
>> On 2/25/2015 11:33 AM, Phillip Perry wrote:
>>
>>
>> It did and I didn't look to confirm it. That's why I said an EIS would have prevented it because it would have flagged and over voltage annunciation and chimed my headset. It wouldn't have been missed with a running EIS.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil, I am assuming that the Cessna had the engine information available at start up and guessing that it still did not help you prevent the melt down. Yes, there are times that malfunction happens at the worst time but is it worth all the complexities to prevent a rare event. In my many yes and hrs of flying, I never witnessed one on my plane and others.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Phillip Perry <philperry9(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Operating a dual dual system is really easy. There's very little that needs to be learned beyond throwing a switch. It's good to know the system, but it's really not a burden. The complexity is really a matter of understanding the wiring. That's the part that most people get intimidated by.
>>>>
>>>> As far as EIS, we've always had oil pressure monitoring from the second he engine started it was just performed via an analog gauge. I have seen Lycoming's that failed to produce oil pressure (or enough pressure to get in the green) after engine start. That's why the gauge is there and every engine manual and pre-flight checklist says to start the engine, set the RPM, and confirm oil pressure in the green. Without an operating EIS, you don't have RPM or pressure information.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I can personally attest to the value of seeing voltage information in addition to oil/engine information. I melted down a C-152'a panel and caused a small fire when I was doing my flight training. The starter bendix never disengaged from the flywheel and when I added power to adjust the RPM, the starter became an unregulated generator. It dumped unregulated high voltages back into the electrical system smoking some equipment, lots of wires, and causing fire damage behind the panel. It was a terrible experience.
>>>>
>>>> If I had voltage information from the start, I would have been alerted that there was higher than normal voltage on the buss and I would have known to shut it down and investigate more.
>>>>
>>>> So there is value in having that information available. In that cassette would have saved the FBO some $$ and kept their plane in service. For me, it was just a lesson learned to check those voltages (with the alt off) while checking oil pressures after engine start.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Flysrv10 <flysrv10(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder why everyone is concerned over oil pressure at startup? If the plane behaved when it was shut down, why would it not at start up?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also wonder why everyone is making their system so complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't mean to criticize. I am thinking that others have had experienced that I have not had and perhaps all the efforts are based on past events.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do not archive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:03 AM, Werner Schneider <glastar(at)gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wonder why most of the people are so heavily looking at the engine monitor being up on start?
>>>>>> On my Glastar I have in // to the EMS a pressure switch which comes alive I think with 25 or 30 psi, that linked
>>>>>> to a LED shows me immediately on start up if the oil pressure comes up and it is a very cheap (and the only)
>>>>>> backup for my EMS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And then my Dynon D10 EMS does take less then 10 sec to reboot on start up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers Werner
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 25.02.2015 04:19, nukeflyboy wrote:
>>>>>>> ... On engine start you will want to see your engine monitor so reboots are a PITA.
>
>
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
|
_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD |
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rv10flyer
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:28 am Post subject: Re: PC680 vs PC925 |
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|
I use my 680 in the back to power the panel before and during startup. I still have the original starter on mine. I normally use my 925L for startup. Current draw on the #2 wire is 435 amps.
If I start on both batteries, I get a little quicker start and my avionics does not restart. I have not measured voltage at starter during startup, but would imagine that my slick start maybe dropping out using just the 925L. I need to get that NL starter sitting on my bench overhauled and installed. I will remeasure current draw and post down the road.
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Wayne G. |
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