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Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

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gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

There have been many many many B&C alternator and 

voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just 

check these archives. It happens. 

   

  I already wrote that there are failures in my post. In fact 

one acquaintance got tired of the B&C voltage regulator that 

burned out and replaced it with a $9.00 Ford VR. 

  

I can point to 1000's of other ND's sold by Van's aircraft

and Niagara that have gone and are still are going for over 

a 1000 hours with out problems.

   

  Mike and his multi failures is a mystery and don't know  

any details. 

   

  What alternator?

Where did he buy it?

How is it installed? Wiring? Belt?

Does he cycle the alternator on and off under load?

Does he have cooling air going to it?

Did he use the warning light 

Is the battery in good condition?

   

  This is not going to  be productive. You are just two 

people which is not a statistically meaningful sample, 

BUT it is a data point and you and MIKE have two 

differnt outcomes that we might make a conclusion. 

However I bet there are several 1000 more stock ND's 

flying than B&C's. Even if we hear from the Mike's less 

than good results  there are many more that have the 

bragging rights you have. However for the $600-$700 

you would expect it to be better by a factor of 3 or 4. 

   

   

  I will concede that quality of some ND aftermarket and 

rebuilt Alts is an issue. I do think the vendor Van had

used in the past was not the best. Well now they  

changed their product. The #14684 is a new aftermarket 

unit of a differnt (better?) brand. I think the quality  

issue will get better. They also added the Plane 

Power units as well.

   

   

  To be fair  to Van's a/c, builders do some not so smart 

things with their alternator and incorrectly wire 

them. The classic was the O/V module (crow bar) 

and b-lead relay that people intentionally tripped 

while the alternator was running. Many of the 

Alts where fried.  They are not designed to be 

disconnected from the battery while running. 

  

The same with cycling the ALT switch, which 

as you know I have said many times is a bad 

idea. I guess you can say your B&C is more 

tolerant of mis use? 

   

  Nothing against B&C, except the price.

   

   

  Again B&C is great but to claim near perfection 

is just silly. I think B&C is being miss quoted. I 

know if you ask pointed questions they will tell 

you the reasons parts have come back in the past. 

However if you had a product and reputation you 

would protect that.

    

   

   

  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   

  >From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com (Fiveonepw(at)aol.com)

 	  Quote: 	
		  

OK, George- here's some data:

I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE 

on his whatever else- Not opinion, FACT.  Maybe not a big 

sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C alternator failure on 

this forum or anywhere else for that matter.  Have YOU?

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

On Jul 1, 2006, at 5:22 AM, <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com)> <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com (gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There have been many many many B&C alternator and 

voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just 

check these archives. It happens.



	


Sure, everything fails. Some things just take a really long time to do so. And I don't think there have been "many many many" failures.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Nothing against B&C, except the price.

	


Have you ever looked at a B&C alternator? Their castings and machinings are quite nice -- first rate. They take pains to use good bearings and balance the rotor. It is a precision piece of hardware. I would expect to pay more for it. I would also expect it to go to TBO without a failure.



 	  Quote: 	
		    Again B&C is great but to claim near perfection 

is just silly. I think B&C is being miss quoted. I 

know if you ask pointed questions they will tell 

you the reasons parts have come back in the past. 

However if you had a product and reputation you 

would protect that.

	


Bill has always been up-front about how he builds things and about how things work. I suspect he would be happy to provide people with a list of failures and reasons. I suspect he can tell you how many he has sold, how many are in service, how many have failed, and why they have failed. Good solid information is how you convince people to trust you. Building a product that is as good as it can be doesn't hurt either.



I think everyone knows that B&C produces a first-class product. None of us know the real failure numbers so any argument is pointless. I am convinced in my own mind that they make the best alternator product out there but that is only my opinion. I know it is expensive but if it just works and doesn't fail, it is worth the extra money to me. Your mileage may vary. 



If someone wants to know the exact failure numbers they should go ask Bill Bainbridge. If someone does and he answers, perhaps they will be so good as to post the information here.



 Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Waybrian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

_________________
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)

I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

You are trying to change the subject, George. The subject (see subject line above) was ALTERNATOR failures; specifically failure (or lack thereof) of B&C alternators. So now you say “There have been many many many B&C alternator and voltage regulator failures,” and go on to talk about voltage regulators.   

   

You claim there have been many, and that they are in the archives. I have been reading the Aeroelectric List since it was created and I don’t recall ever seeing a report of a B&C alternator failure. I just spent some time searching the archives under “alternator failure” and “B&C Alternators” and couldn’t find any hint of a failure of a B&C alternator. I did find mention of B&C voltage regulator design changes because of some problem, but nothing about B&C alternator failures.  

   

You are the one making the claim, George. Give us some evidence, or give it up.  

   

Terry  

   

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com

 Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:22 AM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)  

  

     

There have been many many many B&C alternator and 

 voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just 

 check these archives. It happens.   

    

 <snip>  

    



 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

    

   

    

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Fiveonepw(at)aol.com (Fiveonepw(at)aol.com)

 >
	


 >OK, George- here's some data:

 >I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE 

 >on his whatever else- Not opinion, FACT.  Maybe not a big 

 >sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C alternator failure on 

 >this forum or anywhere else for that matter.  Have YOU?

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

value reliability)

Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com

Reply-To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

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You wrote:



There have been many many many B&C alternator and

voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just

check these archives. It happens.



   "many many" . . . I forget. Is that out of

   the Furlong-Stone-Fortnight measurement system?

   What kinds of failures? Did any result in

   uncontrolled runaways that damaged other systems

   in the aircraft?



   I've shared my personal observations of B&C failure

   rates and reasons in the past . . . but I've not had

   any first-hand experience with B&C in several years.

   Perhaps you have more recent observations to share?

   Have B&C's fortunes taken a sudden dive into the

   crapper?

I already wrote that there are failures in my post. In fact

one acquaintance got tired of the B&C voltage regulator that

burned out and replaced it with a $9.00 Ford VR.



    "Got tired"???? Multiple failures? B&C was unwilling

    to deduce root cause and fix them? Your assertions

    paint an ominous picture of B&C quality and/or

    business practices. Can you enlighten us further?



    If you know of a B&C customer that doesn't think

    they got their money's worth from B&C, please have

    them get in touch with me. My long standing promise

    to drive up to Newton and jump in the "middle of

    Bill's lap" is still operating.



I can point to 1000's of other ND's sold by Van's aircraft

and Niagara that have gone and are still are going for over

a 1000 hours with out problems.



    1000 trouble free installations of ANY other brand doesn't

    make B&C's "bad" or the 1,000 others "good." The bottom line is

    that the risks for (1) failure to perform task and (2) failure

    that migrates to other systems are not zero irrespective of

    what product(s) one chooses to install. "Goodness" is a

    customer perception issue. Get me in touch with a B&C customer

    who thinks he got B&C "badness" in either hardware or service.



Mike and his multi failures is a mystery and don't know

any details.



What alternator?

Where did he buy it?

How is it installed? Wiring? Belt?

Does he cycle the alternator on and off under load?

Does he have cooling air going to it?

Did he use the warning light

Is the battery in good condition?

This is not going to be productive. You are just two

people which is not a statistically meaningful sample,

BUT it is a data point and you and MIKE have two

differnt outcomes that we might make a conclusion.

However I bet there are several 1000 more stock ND's

flying than B&C's. Even if we hear from the Mike's less

than good results  there are many more that have the

bragging rights you have. However for the $600-$700

you would expect it to be better by a factor of 3 or 4.



   A WAG. The risks are still not zero . . . and perhaps

   B&C IS better by a factor of 3 or 4. What measure tells

   you they are NOT? May I humbly request CGS units of

   measurement? Having dropped out of college I missed the

   course on FSF units. Please forgive my ignorance.



I will concede that quality of some ND aftermarket and

rebuilt Alts is an issue. I do think the vendor Van had

used in the past was not the best. Well now they

changed their product. The #14684 is a new aftermarket

unit of a differnt (better?) brand. I think the quality

issue will get better. They also added the Plane

Power units as well.



To be fair to Van's a/c, builders do some not so smart

things with their alternator and incorrectly wire

them. The classic was the O/V module (crow bar)

and b-lead relay that people intentionally tripped

while the alternator was running. Many of the

Alts where fried.  They are not designed to be

disconnected from the battery while running.



   I've had customers tell me of Figure Z-24

   installations have halted a runaway alternator

   and protected the airplane. You're stirring two

   separate issues into the same pot.



   (1) Alternator system ability to do intended task

      (service life/reliability) and . .



   (2) Alternator system failure mode effects and

      features that prevent a runaway alternator

      from getting loose (dark-n-stormy night

      lights up really bright . . . for awhile).



The same with cycling the ALT switch, which as you know I

have said many times is a bad idea. I guess you can say

your B&C is more tolerant of misuse?



    How mis-use? Somewhere on the order of 300,000

    light aircraft have been built with alternator or

    generator control switches. None of those systems I've

    been associated with had any prohibitions or

    cautions about turning the alternator or generator

    on or off at any time under any conditions including B&C

    products. Perhaps your experience is different.



    I object to a characterization of "misuse".

    Being able to control any aircraft alternator or

    generator on airplanes from 150's to Hawkers at

    will under any conditions is a DESIGN GOAL that

    has been achieved by all the folks I work with. That's

    not "misuse" but meeting the specifications

    for the design. Please expand your assertions that

    the design goal was a "bad idea" with the supporting

    simple-ideas.



    I will agree that the automotive IR alternators as-

    supplied are not plug-n-play into the aircraft

    venue without addressing new system integration

    problems . . . but to hat-dance around integration

    issues by labeling root cause of a failure as

    "misuse" and then asserting that any-time/any-conditions

    control as a design goal is a "bad idea" is specious.



Nothing against B&C, except the price.



Again B&C is great but to claim near perfection

is just silly. I think B&C is being miss quoted.



    Perhaps I missed it. What was the quotation?

    And what have you observed that argues against any

    B&C customer's perceptions of value?



I know if you ask pointed questions they will tell

you the reasons parts have come back in the past.

However if you had a product and reputation you

would protect that.



    Are you suggesting that they're lying? What

    conversations have you had with them that would

    indicate this? Inquiring minds thirst for understanding.



  ----- from another post --------



I am sure B&C sells a nice product.



I think B&C might(?) achieve better reliability,

but........



There is NO DATA to back that up any claim

that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C

and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no

real data.



    I have more data than you sir. I spent a lot

    of time in the employ of B&C in the early years

    and worked their booth at OSH for 12 years running.

    I am telling you of my first-hand knowledge that

    FEW (meaning perhaps 1 return per month) alternators

    would come back for any attention. All suffered

    some form of user induced damage.



    I never saw an alternator come back for failure or

    wear-out. In years since, I'm aware of one alternator

    that came back for overhaul when the engine was

    being overhauled too. The brushes were worn beyond

    serviceability. I think the alternator was still

    working . . . but I'll check on that. The engine had

    2000+ hours on it. We've had controllers get returned

    too. Most needed owner induce damage repaired. Occasionally

    we'd have one go inop for a solder joint but there's been

    very few reasons to make changes in design since Voyager

    flew the first LR-1's up and down the coast of California.

    Return rates for any reason have been on the order of 1%

    per year for the total fleet.



    I'll see what the latest experience base is for alternator

    returns. I've not updated in over a year. But do I understand

    you correctly George? Are you asserting that whatever I share

    with the group is to be mistrusted?



To say ZERO failures is disingenuous at best,

with all do respect to B&C, but when you sell

a product that cost 3 or 4 times as much I

guess you have to distinguish yourself.

However you have to be intellectually

honest and admit that things fail and there

is NO guarantee, regardless of the price

paid.



    If the alternator cited came back working but

    worn, then to the best of my first hand knowledge,

    the failure rates for other than external damage

    have thus far been zero. Nobody is guaranteeing

    anything . . . but B&C's service history is a whole

    lot better that the competition in place when their

    products were introduced. That was 20 years ago.

    Capabilities of the current contenders haven't had

    enough time in the marketplace to claim anything in

    comparison with B&C.



I know of several B&C products to fail both first hand and

second hand, just check the archives.



    Give me dates. I've been on this List about as long

    as anybody. I cannot recall any discussions

    on un-resolved B&C hardware issues.  You're claiming

    posted incidents to substantiate your learned advice

    just as I have for other cases in times past. You pasted

    me with that "no data" mantra, how come it applies to

    my arguments and not to yours? I'm not going to

    spend time looking. You tell us where to find them.



There are many B&C failures that don't make news, web

fourms or even get reported to B&C.



     There's that "many" again. If these terrible

     experiences by B&C customers are un-reported

     even to B&C, how is it that you know about them?



     How and when did we arrive at a condition in OBAM

     aviation that customers who pay good money for

     expensive hardware are going to shrug off any

     opportunity for getting their money back on

     bad product? Until you produce names times and

     places for B&C to investigate and rectify,

     your assertion as to shortcomings of their products

     and/or business practice is suspect.



They are experimental and these is no tracking

of reliability. I am sure B&C is aware of failures . . .



     You're telling us that B&C has lied to me when

     I've inquired about failures? Please cite your

     supporting evidence.



and Bob N. has been somewhat forthright . . .



     Just "somewhat"????? In what manner and at

     what time did you find my explanations lacking?

     Pleased be specific. I've been mistaken and

     sincerely appreciated correction but I've NEVER

     deliberately cut corners in my explanations about anything

     to anybody. If you had my permission to insult me,

     I could get really upset about your statement . . .

     but nobody has that permission.



  . . . with problems regarding the voltage regulator that

has lead to improvements. There are still issues.



    Name them. . . . If you're aware of outstanding "issues"

    then speak up. I know exactly what, when and why changes

    were made in the LR-series devices. Let us compare notes.

    Please state which of those changes casts doubt

    on either the quality our products or integrity of

    our companies.



    You're either citing facts that can be substantiated

    or your blowing blue smoke. Neither I, nor B&C nor

    our potential customers need to take notice of your

    counter-marketing rhetoric until we've have had an

    opportunity to address specific grievances or shortcomings.

You have to include the alternator and regulator

as a whole system when comparing it to a ND unit

with integral Voltage regulator.



B&C alternators are made 98% from ND parts

or clone aftermarket ND parts. They DO anodize

and claim . . .



    You doubt the claim?



  . . . . to balance it within a hair on Nat's

bee-hind, but the benefit of this blue printing is a

raging debate to be had another time.



    You'll get no "rage" from me and I doubt from B&C either.

    It's not worth debating unless you have an explanation

    supported by simple-ideas as to how it's a no-value-added

    thing to do.



I can imagine there's a positive, but how much affect on reliability

I don't know.



    Then of what value is it to express your doubts

    for the claim? First you "blow the smoke" and then

    say "I don't know". How are readers of this discussion

    to make a considered judgment of your advice?



I can say if any alternator is bolted to a wild shaking

Lycoming, producing endless vibrations and 50 G

shaking at start and shut down like a wet dog, it's

going for a WILD RIDE anyway. It is like measuring

it with a microscope and cutting with an AX. Same

with balance, does it matter? May Be?

Stock alternators are NOT without some balance.



There are million and millions of ND alternators

(stock) running 24 hours, 7 days, year after year

WORLD wide in cars and industrial equip with

extreme reliability under demanding conditions.



Both my Acura's have ND alternators. One is at

130K with no issue and the other 185K, with a

combined +24 years of combined use.



    But those are not Lycomings and your cars

    don't cruise the alternators at over 10,000

    rpm. You're comparing apples to plums and then

    buying pears. You don't design, build, or

    sell anything. You don't have a dependence on

    the happy customer. You've cited no personal experience

    with the company and products you're down-grading.

    Your advice lacks substance.



    Why debate it? Balancing is a feature of their product.

    Can you can cite a B&C bearing failure attributable

    to ANY decipherable root cause OTHER than balance?

    If not, it's just as credible to assign bearing longevity

    to bearing quality, care in assembly, balancing,

    a sprinkling of pixie dust or any combination

    of the above. Frankly, if their service history on LYCOMINGS

    in OBAM aircraft continues at the present pace, I think

    it matters not what manufacturing features are

    cited in the marketing hype . . .



    For a dozen years I worked in the booth at OSH and

    when asked "Whats the warranty" I said, "No unhappy

    customers." Bill was standing right beside be me when

    I said it. I've had no reason presented to me by an

    unhappy customer to prove Bill a fraud or me

    as mis-informed. Can you enlighten us in this regard?



The issue with many ND alternators builders use is

the fact they came from a supplier selling less than

great aftermarket NON nippondenso units. As this

15-18 year old design gets older, you will only

find aftermarket alternators. The good news is

there are good aftermarket parts. The bad news is

there are BAD ones as well. Aftermarket ND parts

are make in Taiwan and China by 4 or more big

companies. Not all are of the same quality.



Not all aftermarket parts are the same. The same

applies to re-builds at the Auto Zone or Pep-Boys.

At least many offer a good warranty. The bad news

is that chain of auto parts store may not be in your

area when doing a cross country and it fails. If

you can't go to the same store, you can't take

advantage of the warranty replacement. I suspect

if Auto-Parts-R-Us gets wind its on a plane, they

may protest and deny your warranty claim anyway.

If a B&C regulator or alternator fails, it is a custom

alternator that only B&C can really work on. There

is something to be said with over the counter auto

parts.



    But who NEEDS parts to work on a B&C alternator?

    Who was told that B&C alternators only work with

    B&C controllers? There are diagrams in the

    'Connection that illustrate alternate controller

    options designed to enhance the customer's

    purchasing experience with the offerings of both

    B&C and the 'Connection.



I am sure B&C is good, but not as great as their hype.



   "Good" . . . "not as great" . . . please cite

   in CGS units . . . But in spite of "good", are

   we to understand that Bill lies and Bob is less

   than completely forthcoming?



If you read B&C's web site it is full of hyperbole and

rhetoric. I read the B&C sales pitch and it is so

strongly worded, like a novel, One dark and stormy

night stories, they just turn me off. It plays on

emotion not facts. I got a cold sweat and thought I

was going to die of an electrical failure sitting in my

office in front to my PC. It's a great sales pitch but

it's overstated. The owner or B&C is a super nice

guy and think he believes in his product. This is

just my opinion about what I think of sale's pitches

that play on emotion not the product.



      If one chooses to join a hype-slinging match between

      B&C and Plane Power's sites, there's plenty of stretched

      semantics to go around. See:



      http://www.plane-power.com/Comparing_Amps.htm



      This alternator output curve doesn't state pulley

      sizes nor test conditions under which the two curves

      are plotted. It implies that Prestolite is fraudulent

      in their product labeling. But the two curves are

      parallel to each other . . . do you suppose if one

      adjusted the Prestolite pulley down in size that the

      curves would lay on top of each other?  If I were to

      publish curves like this, any statement made concerning

      the value of the data would be supported by a

      test report.



      Let us consider this paragraph from Plane Power's website:



-----------------------

      The full line of Plane-Power alternators not only give you

      unprecedented choice,  but also provide a vastly improved product.



     Years of research & development have gone into making Plane-Power

     alternators:



     * Generate substantially higher power at lower engine RPM,

     * Generate significantly less heat while generating rated power,

     * Generate rated power at typical aircraft cruise RPM

       (believe it or not, your current alternator does not!)

     * Generate more power at higher altitudes (all testing to 28,000'!)

     * Weigh up to four pounds less , and

     * Perform much more reliably than comparable OEM models

------------------------



      Gee, lookit al those un-quantified adjectives! Oh, yeah,

      those must be FSF units of measure. But who are they

      comparing themselves to? Obviously not B&C alternators.



      Here's an interesting bit: See:



http://www.plane-power.com/AL12_50C.htm



      If I read the webpage correctly, this alternator is

      CAPABLE of 70A of output but with the following

      modifier:

----------------

     *Aircraft electrical system will be limited by existing

     wiring and output breaker not to exceed 50 amps.  The

     Plane-Power alternator can produce all 70 amps if

     proper size wiring and circuit breaker is installed

     and approved.

----------------



      Hmmm . . . how does the downsizing of b-lead and

      b-lead breaker de-rate the alternator? Sounds to me

      like a set-up for nuisance tripping. If this is a 70A

      machine, it needs wire and b-lead protection sized

      for that capability IRRESPECTIVE of what the original

      installation called for.



On a cost to benefit analysis I doubt you will see

a cost benefit from the B&C in your or anyone's

lifetime. My only gripe with B&C is the outrageous

price they charge. If you want an alternator kit

check out Plane Power.



      Gripe all you want . . . and please, don't

      buy a B&C or 'Connection product based on anything

      Bill or I has to say about it. And don't buy it

      if you've found one of our customers that has been

      left with a hunk of junk because Bill or I has

      told him to "lump it." If you DO buy our products,

      know that we both strive to give fair value.



      If you bring a product back for any reason, we

      both expect to know the specifics of your problem

      and we're both ready to make it right with you.

      If the marketing techniques fraudulently

      drove your choice to purchase the product and

      you're dissatisfied with value-received, then

      it's a simple matter to cite your experiences,

      voice your displeasure and collect your refund.



      I've had two or three folks write over the years to

      say that the 'Connection was not what they expected

      whereupon they got their money back . . . and were

      told to keep the book. It just doesn't make sense

      to be less accommodating with a customer. No news

      travels faster than bad news and I strive to keep

      bad news from happening. I'm sure you understand how

      I might get my shorts bunched by fabricated bad news.

      I'll suggest that any claims about me and the 'Connection

      contrary to demonstrated policy are fabrications. I'll

      stand corrected about Bill if I talk to the B&C customer

      that got "shafted".



I think if you buy a good quality after-market stock

ND alternator and install and operate it properly,

you can achieve the same reliability as any DESIGNER

brand alternator. Proper operation is don't

cycle the ALT switch with the engine turning and

don't overload it.



    Hmmm . . . last time I ran an alternator, it was

    inherently current limited . . . if it's cooled

    sufficiently to run at 100% of rated load, then you

    can't "overload" it.



  Proper installation is install the warning light



    . . . I presume your talking about the warning

    light common to internally regulated alternators.

    Have you seen a schematic of how this light functions?

    The schematic I've seen shows that this feature is

    not worthy of name for aircraft use. But if you

    have a schematic that shows something different,

    we'd all be pleased and relived to know that someone

    has done due-diligence in rectifying the deficiency.



  . . .  and provide heat shield and cooling air.

Both Plane Power and B&C offer value but I think of

the two, Plane Power has the value edge:



- High Altitude brushes



    High altitude brushes in alternators is blue

    smoke. Slip ring service at 3A is a whole different

    animal than commutator service at 30 amps plus . . .

    Further, there are no RV's I'm aware of that

    cruise at 25,000 feet and up. See:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/BrushesForAircraft.pdf



- Proper Fan cooling direction



     B&C's go the wrong way?



- Additional O/V protection (elegant**)

(** additional OV is integrated not an ADD on B-lead relay)



      Hmmm . . . I have postings you've made stating that

      IR alternators didn't need ov protection. Now you say

      the addition is "elegant".



      Have you seen a schematic of this system? And what

      does the b-lead contactor ov system have to do with B&C's

      alternators and regulators? The B-lead disconnect

      contactor was a system integration solution published

      in the 'Connection for adding OV protection to an automotive

      alternator without getting inside the alternator to

      modify it. This has nothing to do with B&C's products.



      Keep in mind too that the B&C alternator controller

      has LV warning built . . . which reduces the

      delta-dollars of Plane-Power over B&C by $60 or so.

      If one chooses a 'Ford' regulator and external OV protection

      with the B&C alternator, then it's less expensive than

      Plane Power.



- High Quality installation hardware ($375)



      B&C's installation hardware is not high quality? And this

      costs extra? Gee, B&C's alternators come with the mounting

      hardware. See:



http://bandc.biz/L60desc.html

      Does this mean folks should steer clear of Plane Power?

      Don't see why. Should folks steer clear of B&C because

      of your un-substantiated assertions? Give us a list of

      shafted customers who were lied to by Bill or misinformed/

      lied to by me.



      Bottom line: Does a product deliver what the customer wants

      for his project and does he get honorable support from the

      supplier when things are not going right? Tell us where B&C

      (or the 'Connection) has fallen short of this time honored

      free-enterprise recipe for success.

    Bob . . .

brian

Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 643
Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

On Jul 3, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		        Bottom line: Does a product deliver what the customer wants

      for his project and does he get honorable support from the

      supplier when things are not going right? Tell us where B&C

      (or the 'Connection) has fallen short of this time honored

      free-enterprise recipe for success.


	


You know George, I have spent a fair bit of time talking with Bill in  

person at OSH and on the phone. I have looked at his products and I  

have been impressed with the quality. (I used to design and build  

mission-critical computer networking devices and have a bit of a clue  

on how to build and support high-quality products.) I also understand  

quality support from competent people. B&C provides quality support  

from competent people who truly understand their product.



As I said, I will be installing a B&C alternator in my CJ6A for two  

reasons:



1. I don't think anyone makes a better product at any price;



2. it is a bolt-on solution for the M14P engine (which shakes a good  

deal more than any Lycoming). I expect that the B&C alternator will  

make it to TBO even under aerobatic conditions.



But it takes all kinds to make a horse race. I know which horse I  

plan to put my money on. And I sure do get tired of hearing people  

try to sell one product by running down its competitor. It is one  

thing to show how your product is better but a different thing to use  

FUD to try to scare people away from a competing product. I am sure  

Plane-Power and ND can stand on their own merits without you trying  

to run down B&C.



Brian Lloyd                         361 Catterline Way

brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com          Folsom, CA 95630

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Bob I was waiting for your to chime in.

   

  Could you provide facts and not endless talking 

in circles with vague and not so vague personal 

insults. I wrote everything I needed to say, 

and there is no need to repeat myself.

   

  I was hoping you would have something useful 

to contribute, but those hopes have been 

dashed. When you have nothing to say 

  you attack the person and their choice of  

  words, not the facts.

  

I don't expect you to be un-bias, since you 

where the main band leader of faults and 

totally unsubstantiated urban legends about 

the horrors of internal regulators for years. 

   

  I begged you to give facts so many times.

I have given up. You can be hypocritical 

to an extrodinary and audacious degree.

   

  I don't think you are  intentionally duplicitous.  

I just think you LOVE to argue. I am bored 

of arguing with you. We where having a 

nice friendly discussion on the topic before 

you came along. We have MANY, MANY, 

MANY smart people on this forum who 

can filter your bogosity. 

   

  When you can prove B&C alternators and 

voltage regulators have ZERO failure rate 

please write me, and please don't try 

that Failure Mode and Effect Analysis 

claim you tried on me before, I know what 

that means. I know you have no such 

data. That was the day I lost a little 

respect for you Bob, when you tried to  

BS me. I still like you and think you 

  contribute lots of good, but when you 

  get like this you are less than useless.

  My bladder is empty, you can pee 

  further, you win, you are right again, 

  I am wrong again. OK.

    

  I am now going outside to talk to my mail 

box since that will be about as useful as 

corresponding with you right now.

   

  Have a nice 4th of July, independence 

  day of the greatest democracy ever.

  She may not be perfect but I would not 

  want to live anywhere else in the world.

   

   

  Cheers George M.

   

   

  

 

   

  >posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		  

You wrote:



There have been many many many B&C alternator and

voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just

check  these archives. It happens.


	




  		How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low  PC-to-Phone call rates.

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

With all respect that is due to the  contributions you have otherwise made to this list, George, please consider  letting this personal challenge between you and Bob thing die.  You have  proven you know a lot about some things and one of them is how to never  give up on a point even when concrete evidence (first hand witnesses) is  missing.  I think anyone with any knowledge and deduced common sense knows  that B&C alternators are proven, perhaps the best and if anyone reading this  list had a failure for some reason other than installation induced, they surely  would have chimed in by now.  Why would not those with failures due to  installation errors have chimed in by now with all the attention you have  pointed at this??     

  

 Please give us all a break and favor by showing you  are a gentleman and just walk away until you get uncover (if there is any) some  real evidence.  

  

 I might suggest you buy one of their alternators  new, and see for yourself how they treat and service customers.  Just  be sure to properly install it so IF it fails you can tell the world you were  right.  For you, the higher the price, the more it might be worth it.   

  

 Thank you for your consideration.  Larry in  Indiana

 [quote]   ---

willslau(at)alumni.rice.e
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

I  think it's abundantly clear who's the one who loves to argue here, George. I  don't know why you have such a vendetta against Bob and/or B&C, both of whom  have built their sterling reputations over decades. If they were as duplicitous  as you claim, the word would be out by now. No one cares what kind of alternator  you want to use, but I'm sure lots of people on this list are extraordinarily  tired of your constant attacks. Have you noticed that no one seems to be chiming  in to take your side? Don't you ever get tired of being the turd in the  punchbowl? Give it a rest, George. Go spew your venom somewhere  else.

  

 William Slaughter

 [quote]   

   --

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Larry in Indiana,

Your words for George are entirely correct, but you must understand that he has been admonished many many times before and just continues to believe that he is the one and only god of the alternator universe.  Don't waste your breath (or keyboarding).  If you are smart, just put a filter in your email program that just dumps his stuff in the trash.  Yes, there are some good things he has to say (occasionally) but most of that is available elsewhere.  It's just not worth the effort. 

 

Best Regards,



Steve 

________________________________________________________________________ 



On Jul 4, 2006, at 5:43 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Please give us all a break and favor by showing you are a gentleman and just walk away until you get uncover (if there is any) some real evidence.

jschroeder(at)perigee.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Once again, George-the-Vicious can't stand an honest request for proof and  

resorts to slanderous comment. Bob is not the only one who has asked for  

proof. But George seems to feel that he must play with, and take on, the  

big boys. Yet, he simply doesn't have the maturity to do so. There is a  

short circuit in there somewhere and it destroys his ability to use his  

knowledge to make meaningful contributions to the forum. Pun intended.

DO NOT ARCHIVE

John

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 03:08:50 -0700 (PDT), <gmcjetpilot(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bob I was waiting for your to chime in.

  Could you provide facts and not endless talking

 in circles with vague and not so vague personal

 insults. I wrote everything I needed to say,

 and there is no need to repeat myself.

  I was hoping you would have something useful

 to contribute, but those hopes have been

 dashed. When you have nothing to say

   you attack the person and their choice of

   words, not the facts.

 I don't expect you to be un-bias, since you

 where the main band leader of faults and

 totally unsubstantiated urban legends about

 the horrors of internal regulators for years.

  I begged you to give facts so many times.

 I have given up. You can be hypocritical

 to an extrodinary and audacious degree.

  I don't think you are intentionally duplicitous.

 I just think you LOVE to argue. I am bored

 of arguing with you. We where having a

 nice friendly discussion on the topic before

 you came along. We have MANY, MANY,

 MANY smart people on this forum who

 can filter your bogosity.

  When you can prove B&C alternators and

 voltage regulators have ZERO failure rate

 please write me, and please don't try

 that Failure Mode and Effect Analysis

 claim you tried on me before, I know what

 that means. I know you have no such

 data. That was the day I lost a little

 respect for you Bob, when you tried to

 BS me. I still like you and think you

   contribute lots of good, but when you

   get like this you are less than useless.

   My bladder is empty, you can pee

   further, you win, you are right again,

   I am wrong again. OK.

  I am now going outside to talk to my mail

 box since that will be about as useful as

 corresponding with you right now.

  Have a nice 4th of July, independence

   day of the greatest democracy ever.

   She may not be perfect but I would not

   want to live anywhere else in the world.

  Cheers George M.

  >posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>

>

> You wrote:

>

> There have been many many many B&C alternator and

> voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just

> check these archives. It happens.

 ---------------------------------

 How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengerâ€™s low  PC-to-Phone call  

 rates.

--

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

 Ah yes, there are people who know a lot and say just  enough and there are those who know some and speak a lot to fill the  gaps.  The former tends to be better than the latter.  Now then, who  is who.

  

 do not archive

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Gee George, 

  It surely would be nice to see your writings  without personal complaints. Surely you could couch your criticisms in  non personal terms and still get your point across. All you would have to say is  I think this way might be better and explain why...then you'd have a dialogue,  not a public row. This way all could benefit, and then we ill educated, vis a  vis electronics could pick and choose our approach. We may not make the best  pick, but at least we'd have the info. The facts are being obscured amid your  charges.

 Have a happy 4th,

 Harold

kayce33(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Larry, 

 I think your george filter idea is great, if  everyone did that, that would reduce the clutter from trying to answer him. This  could  be a refreshing future without the BS from one on an ego  trip.

 Harold

Jekyll

Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliabi

George adds substantial value to this forum. Each reader must decide if George is brash, rude, obnoxious or none-of-the-above. I know what to expect when I see him chime in on anything dealing with alternators or VR's HOWEVER, I also know that his entries have caused, and will always cause a greater discussion of the issues than would be had without him. This provides us all with a greater understanding. 



Don't chase George away because he riles you. Welcome him because he instigates the forum to greater depths of discussion and research. 



Out of chaos comes opportunity, out of heated discourse comes understanding and knowledge.



Jekyll

lists(at)stevet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability)

Sorry, Jekyll, but controversy can be had without being a rude and  

pompous !(at)#.  Depths of discussion and research is possible without  

personal attacks from someone who thinks he is clearly god's gift to  

the earth.  I still say - filter George to trash.  After you've had a  

couple of months with this guy, you will have had enough, too.  There  

are plenty of extremely knowledgeable, experienced people who know  

how to be human beings who remain.



Do not archive



Best Regards,



Steve

________________________________________________________________________



On Jul 4, 2006, at 11:59 AM, Jekyll wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Don't chase George away because he riles you. Welcome him because  

 he instigates the forum to greater depths of discussion and research.

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