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Air Leak Advice
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:02 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

I hope your mechanic understands how the pneumatic system works, because if he does not .... it is going to be pretty much up to you to teach him, or hire someone who does. It is a "mind set" that when someone hears air hissing from a gear lever in the cockpit that they immediately assume it must be bad. This happens a lot ...

Unless a fitting is loose, you will normally never hear air coming out of the actuators. There is a ring seal in there that can cause that, but by and large it is the chevron seals that go first and when they do go, they cause an internal leak and not an external leak that you can hear. Evidence of an internal leak is air leaking out of the gear handle with the gear either fully up, or fully down. If there is no air leaking out the gear handle (this being done on the deck with the aircraft on jacks) then there are no internal leaks. If you hear air coming out of the handle, read Dennis's instructions on how to narrow it down to exactly where.

If the crush washers are missing, the system will not pressurize.

If they are the wrong size, they could be leaking.

There are many ways to skin this cat. My PERSONAL way is to take the line off the snot valve going to the check valves on the firewall, and then with a homemade adapter fitting, I connect a line from a regulated tank back to the snot valve. I am now blowing air BACKWARDS towards the compressor. Listen for leaks. Be aware that there is a check valve in the compressor itself that can get all gummed up that can also cause leaks. In any case, I inject air backwards and if I hear a leak, or see "airflow" then I take the Banjo fitting off and look everything over. Before you do that, order a few sets of new banjo fitting aluminum crush washers. Also be aware that it is very common for the line from the compressor to the banjo to crack. I doubt that is the case here.

ANYWAY.... before you do ALL OF THAT, do this. After you finish flying, walk away from the aircraft for about 15-20 minutes and come back and THEN open the snot valve. If you get no WHOOSH, then you probably have something leaking in the above area.

Be careful not to chase Ghosts. If I run my air down to 25 Atmos's or so, it takes about 10 min or MORE at 85% power to pump it back up, and that is with no leaks and a new compressor. Add some age to the compressor, and those numbers increase even further.

But if you can't REACH 50 Atmos with the gear handle up, and putting it in the center ALLOWS it to reach 50, then yes... you've got a leak. Again, use Dennis Savarese's procedures.

Mark


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AcroGimp



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Thanks again Mark. My mechanic is quite versed in the Yak, the confusion is me a new operator.

Taking your advice today I merely set UP on the handle and left it during my formation sortie, it pumped up to 50 and regulated just fine (I didn't time it and it was a long flight but I noticed it was at 50 during maybe 2nd ops check so about 20-30 minutes in) - I figure there probably was a leak with the check valve to snot valve (with compressor going) and I was impatient last time I flew.

Thanks all for the inputs. I am sure there will be other things but I think this issue may be closed.

'Gimp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Roger that. !!

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AcroGimp



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
Roger that. !!

--
It was the 'chasing ghosts' comment Mark - perfectly stated and well-timed.

The plane is still new enough to me that I am still figuring out what 'normal' really is and I was paranoid about air system issues since I got stranded away from base once before we figured out the start valve was going. Replaced that, then the check valves and now it seems to be fine but I needed to just let it operate normally and see that it would pump up OK which it did.

Thanks again to you and Dennis in particular for good advice about not falling into the trap of shotgun/swaptronics type troubleshooting. I feel much better now.

'Gimp


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AcroGimp



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Funny follow-up...

Yesterday system did not pump up in flight regardless of action (e.g., gear handle UP, or neutral). This was curious because flight on Monday system behaved flawlessly for first time ever.

Nothing out of snot valve on shutdown so scrubbed planned 2nd flight, started at compressor and found the infamous banjo fitting to have worked itself loose. Removed the safetywire, tightened it back up, re-safetywired - check flight tomorrow (fingers crossed).

Funny how things like this happen when you have something important to do like All Red Star (leaving for Porterville Thursday AM if banjo fitting was issue).

'Gimp


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Another place to locate crush washers in a pinch is a GM dealer as some GM
vehicles use the banjo fitting on the front brake calipers, they are also
metric.

Frank
N23021
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AcroGimp



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

4-20-15 Update

So I did a couple engine runs today to see if I could build any pressure and still no joy - no indication of pumping up on the gage and nothing out of the snot valve on shutdown.

Will try the rubber glove test on compressor intake on Thursday AM, and if that shows good will replace crush washers at banjo (most likely/most hoped for right now).

Want to verify that just pulling a few blades through should be enough to see if compressor is sucking air through filter.

If compressor is sucking and banjo fitting doesn't fix it, would seem like line from banjo to snot valve, or snot valve itself would be next most likely culprit.

I don't want to just shotgun it so advice appreciated.

'Gimp


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

How long after take off have you run the prop at 100%?

You may have sheared the drive on the engine driven compressor...

Keep 'em Flyin',

Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946

Volunteer Aero Services
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343

"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:24 PM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:



4-20-15 Update

So I did a couple engine runs today to see if I could build any pressure and still no joy - no indication of pumping up on the gage and nothing out of the snot valve on shutdown.

Will try the rubber glove test on compressor intake on Thursday AM, and if that shows good will replace crush washers at banjo (most likely/most hoped for right now).

Want to verify that just pulling a few blades through should be enough to see if compressor is sucking air through filter.

If compressor is sucking and banjo fitting doesn't fix it, would seem like line from banjo to snot valve, or snot valve itself would be next most likely culprit.

I don't want to just shotgun it so advice appreciated.

'Gimp

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Viperdoc



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:02 pm    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Gimp,
You are on track. If the glove does not inflate you most likely have your problem. If your compressor check valve is clean and is free moving. If you change the crush washers while the airline to the snot valve is disconnected from the check valve do a compression test with the glove directly on the check valve. That would be the ultimate answer to the question of is the compressor making air.
The piston and spring inside the check valve be installed backwards too.
More food for thought.
Doc

Sent from my iPad

Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, at 10:24 PM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:



4-20-15 Update

So I did a couple engine runs today to see if I could build any pressure and still no joy - no indication of pumping up on the gage and nothing out of the snot valve on shutdown.

Will try the rubber glove test on compressor intake on Thursday AM, and if that shows good will replace crush washers at banjo (most likely/most hoped for right now).

Want to verify that just pulling a few blades through should be enough to see if compressor is sucking air through filter.

If compressor is sucking and banjo fitting doesn't fix it, would seem like line from banjo to snot valve, or snot valve itself would be next most likely culprit.

I don't want to just shotgun it so advice appreciated.

'Gimp

--------
Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW




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AcroGimp



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

dantpayne(at)icloud.com wrote:
How long after take off have you run the prop at 100%?

You may have sheared the drive on the engine driven compressor...

Keep 'em Flyin',

Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946

Volunteer Aero Services
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343

"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:24 PM, AcroGimp <jlknolla> wrote:



4-20-15 Update

So I did a couple engine runs today to see if I could build any pressure and still no joy - no indication of pumping up on the gage and nothing out of the snot valve on shutdown.

Will try the rubber glove test on compressor intake on Thursday AM, and if that shows good will replace crush washers at banjo (most likely/most hoped for right now).

Want to verify that just pulling a few blades through should be enough to see if compressor is sucking air through filter.

If compressor is sucking and banjo fitting doesn't fix it, would seem like line from banjo to snot valve, or snot valve itself would be next most likely culprit.

I don't want to just shotgun it so advice appreciated.

'Gimp

--------
Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW




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Dan I am usually pulling back to ~82% shortly after takeoff, especially on form training flights - I don't think I've kept 100% in for more than 90 seconds, 2 minutes max.

During last couple form sorties a friend and fellow yak pilot did show that you can use the prop for catching up in-flight but that was limited to about 90% and for periods of well under a minute.

That said, I am aware of the shear rivets in the drive and am concerned about that since the flight before it acted up it ran as well as it ever has with respect to pneumatics. Hoping for simple...

'Gimp


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richard.goode(at)russiana
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:28 pm    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Are you sure the compressor is turning? There is a shear coupling between
engine and compressor held together with soft rivets, which is designed to
shear if the load from the compressor becomes too great, and it then stops
turning.

As others have suggested, a rubber glove on either inlet or exit to the
compressor will confirm this.

Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW

Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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LawnDart



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Quite common for the flare of the steel line from compressor to snot bottle to crack at the snot bottle.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:54 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

I was going to say the same thing. If it's leaking (banjo, valves) you should see something. Sadly, it probably is the accessory to compressor drive shaft. It has a frangible link that has failed. The compressor is HARD to get off. Call Jill at M-14, they have some good tools and tricks to help you out. I had to replace mine when the prop popped backwards on a shutdown. Lots of fun...


Bill Culberson
Red Star Aero Services
-------- Original message --------
From: Dan Payne <dantpayne(at)icloud.com>
Date:04/20/2015 10:44 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: Air Leak Advice
--> Yak-List message posted by: Dan Payne <dantpayne(at)icloud.com>

How long after take off have you run the prop at 100%?

You may have sheared the drive on the engine driven compressor...

Keep 'em Flyin',

Dan Payne
Owner, Pilot, A&P-IA
(423)-544-8946

Volunteer Aero Services
Dallas Bay Skypark
1824 E Crabtree Road
Hixson, TN 37343

"Where Airworthiness Means Business!"
Quote:
On Apr 20, 2015, at 11:24 PM, AcroGimp <jlknolla(at)aol.com> wrote:

--> Yak-List message posted by: "AcroGimp" <jlknolla(at)aol.com>

4-20-15 Update

So I did a couple engine runs today to see if I could build any pressure and still no joy - no indication of pumping up on the gage and nothing out of the snot valve on shutdown.

Will try the rubber glove test on compressor intake on Thursday AM, and if that shows good will replace crush washers at banjo (most likely/most hoped for right now).

Want to verify that just pulling a few blades through should be enough to see if compressor is sucking air through filter.

If compressor is sucking and banjo fitting doesn't fix it, would seem like line from banjo to snot valve, or snot valve itself would be next most likely culprit.

I don't want to just shotgun it so advice appreciated.

'Gimp

--------
Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
COMM/ASEL/IFR/HP-Complex/TW




Read this topic online here:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Just commenting again that there is a lot of "stuff" that can leak between the compressor and snot valve. The rubber glove trick vis-à-vis checking the compressor is of course a good check. But you want to be darn sure that the compressor is not pumping up before you remove it. Darn sure. However, listening for leaks on that line is impossible with the engine running, obviously. Consider reverse pressurizing the line to the compressor with the engine not running. You will hear any leaks almost immediately. Otherwise you are just dive bombing. If you have the rigid line with a loop in it going from compressor to snot valve, I have seen these crack on at least three occasions now.

Mark
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:29 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

If you suspect or find that the hard line between the banjo fitting on
the compressor and the input to the snot bottle is cracked, Doug Sapp
has a flexible replacement line.
Dennis

A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1

On 4/21/2015 9:21 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD wrote:
[quote]

Just commenting again that there is a lot of "stuff" that can leak between the compressor and snot valve. The rubber glove trick vis-à-vis checking the compressor is of course a good check. But you want to be darn sure that the compressor is not pumping up before you remove it. Darn sure. However, listening for leaks on that line is impossible with the engine running, obviously. Consider reverse pressurizing the line to the compressor with the engine not running. You will hear any leaks almost immediately. Otherwise you are just dive bombing. If you have the rigid line with a loop in it going from compressor to snot valve, I have seen these crack on at least three occasions now.

Mark
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AcroGimp



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Thanks guys. I am paranoid about the compressor drive and it will be first thing I check Thursday AM by doing the rubber glove check on the compressor outlet.

I am guessing just put a glove on the outlet and tape it up or rubber band it tight then pull 6-9 blades through to see if it pumps up any.

Assuming that checks OK, I will clean the little valve and piston there before reassembling with new crush washers and trying again.

While the cowl is open and before I totally reassemble the banjo fitting I will try and pressurize the hard line to the snot bottle from the banjo side although I don't have shop air, just a tiny portable compressor used for filling tires but I would think that may be enough.

There is a possibility that the snot valve is stuck open (unable to check while doing engine runs solo) and this should show that if there are no apparent leaks in the hard line. I might be able to drag it over to a nearby hangar and use their shop air but that is not a given.

As gunked up as the check valve was I wouldn't be surprised if the snot valve was in similar shape although it was cleaned during the conditional last August according to mechanic (~60 hrs since). I do plan to basically just walk through overhaul of all of the valves (snot valve and PRV remain on the firewall, than possible fuselage mounted valves) but I am trying to pace myself from a budget and frustration standpoint.

'Gimp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Gimp,

You can reverse pressurize the line by going all the way up to the firewall check-valve and taking it off there. Back feeding it there will then also check the snot valve for leaks.

The compressor is pumping these lines up to 730 (or so) PSI. Your tire compressor will do 120, ... maybe. The problem is that you want to reverse pressurize the lines, then shut the valve and have everything totally silent listening, or using soap and water looking for bubbles, or an ultrasonic leak detector if you happen to be so lucky to have one of those, and better yet by watching the line pressure and seeing how fast it decreases.

However, when you try to check for leaks with a system that uses 730 PSI, at 120 PSI with a compressor that does not have a shut-off isolation valve, you get to the point where you really don't conclusively have the answer.

If you find the leak with 120 PSI, then GREAT!

If you don't find the leak with 120 PSI of air, then that does not prove that there is not a leak. You have to test "stuff" under the same operating conditions that they experience in flight, or with the engine running (not easy).

Point of fact: If you own a Russian or Chinese aircraft that starts and operates using compressed air at 730 PSI, then you need to have a source of air at that same pressure or above, typically a SCUBA bottle, but it can be whatever you come up with really. If you don't have that available, then consider it one of your highest priorities to obtain. You needed it.... yesterday, if you get my point. It is just a matter of time until you run out of air and need it for OTHER reasons. The really GOOD set-up is to have some kind of pressure regulator with gage available. The same kind of thing welders have, but capable of having outlet pressure controllable to 700 PSI or so. What I am trying to suggest gracefully is that you not try to just use whatever you have. If you want to test it right, then you need to test it with the right equipment and not whatever you happen to have in the garage... some may not agree, but if you pull that compressor off and find there is nothing wrong with it.... you will then know for LIFE what I am talking about.

Question: How many hours are on that compressor?

Put the glove on the air INTAKE and not the output. It should suck it in .... I would not put it on the output first. Read what Dennis said to you in that regard.

With the right tests using the right equipment you will get definitive results. Doing it with less than that and I will wish you "Good Luck" Smile

Mark

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AcroGimp



Joined: 11 Jun 2013
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Location: San Diego, CA USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote:
Gimp,

You can reverse pressurize the line by going all the way up to the firewall check-valve and taking it off there. Back feeding it there will then also check the snot valve for leaks.

The compressor is pumping these lines up to 730 (or so) PSI. Your tire compressor will do 120, ... maybe. The problem is that you want to reverse pressurize the lines, then shut the valve and have everything totally silent listening, or using soap and water looking for bubbles, or an ultrasonic leak detector if you happen to be so lucky to have one of those, and better yet by watching the line pressure and seeing how fast it decreases.

However, when you try to check for leaks with a system that uses 730 PSI, at 120 PSI with a compressor that does not have a shut-off isolation valve, you get to the point where you really don't conclusively have the answer.

If you find the leak with 120 PSI, then GREAT!

If you don't find the leak with 120 PSI of air, then that does not prove that there is not a leak. You have to test "stuff" under the same operating conditions that they experience in flight, or with the engine running (not easy).

Point of fact: If you own a Russian or Chinese aircraft that starts and operates using compressed air at 730 PSI, then you need to have a source of air at that same pressure or above, typically a SCUBA bottle, but it can be whatever you come up with really. If you don't have that available, then consider it one of your highest priorities to obtain. You needed it.... yesterday, if you get my point. It is just a matter of time until you run out of air and need it for OTHER reasons. The really GOOD set-up is to have some kind of pressure regulator with gage available. The same kind of thing welders have, but capable of having outlet pressure controllable to 700 PSI or so. What I am trying to suggest gracefully is that you not try to just use whatever you have. If you want to test it right, then you need to test it with the right equipment and not whatever you happen to have in the garage... some may not agree, but if you pull that compressor off and find there is nothing wrong with it.... you will then know for LIFE what I am talking about.

Question: How many hours are on that compressor?

Put the glove on the air INTAKE and not the output. It should suck it in .... I would not put it on the output first. Read what Dennis said to you in that regard.

With the right tests using the right equipment you will get definitive results. Doing it with less than that and I will wish you "Good Luck" Smile

Mark

--
Thanks Mark. I do have a SCUBA bottle for servicing the aircraft, just don't have a connection that would do the job as I understand it, didn't think to use it for this. Don't have the regulating/pressure gauge but can probably put something together looking at welder supplies. I am guessing you have a hose with the male fitting and just plug into the b-nut on lines you want to check?

Quick question - what size connector for the B-Nut on the compressor-to-snot-valve line?

No worries about pushing for the right tools, that's why I am asking here.

As for compressor, mechanic reports it was new within last year or so, so less than 100 hrs (logs at hangar). Engine has kicked back a couple times on shutdown and I recall reading that can be an issue for the compressor drive.

'Gimp


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:07 am    Post subject: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

Gimp,

Roger that. FYI, the flares on the Russian lines are the same angle that we use for our standard AN fittings. So if you can get your hands on some Russian (Chinese?) metric fittings you can very easily make an aluminum line with AN on one side and Russian metric on the other, which is what I did. That said, I seem to remember someone on this list once mentioning a source for adapter fittings that go from AN to Metric. I know Kimbal has them for the M-14 engine, but not sure about a commercial source. I am lucky enough to have a hydraulic line and fitting shop 300 feet from my office, so we just rigged them up. I am wondering if Doup Sapp might have something in that regard... he is really good source for parts. Failing that Jill? Anyway, you bring up a good point. Sooner or later EVERYONE on this list is going to have to deal with an air leak of some type. Adapters made for this purpose would probably be a hot selling item ... until everyone had a set. Smile Lots of really imaginative ideas have posted on the matter of air leaks. It is a common topic, which is why everyone has so many good suggestions... they've been through it.

Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: Air Leak Advice Reply with quote

You can make (with a lathe) a simple adapter to connect to the line at the compressor going to the snot bottle.
Get some Al round stock (1/2 inch diameter, about 3 inch length), drill hole the entire length. One end, tap for a schrader valve, the other end will need M12x1.0 threads and 37 deg to accept the b-nut on the line to the snot bottle. Now a scuba bottle can connect and pressurize everything downstream. I made one years ago and has been very valuable for troubleshooting.


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