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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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Perhaps “managing risks when deviating from traditional aircraft system design and implementation”.
As has been discussed, risk tolerance is as varied among builders as paint schemes. One approach to try to bound this risk discussion would be to first define the mission of the RV project. Here many builders fall into just two groups; those who have to build to get an RV and those who get to build and have an RV as a bonus. For that first group I’d offer the best risk mitigation is to adopt systems that have been demonstrated by other builders. This group will end up with some confidence that they (and their passengers) are not on the cutting edge of experimental when doing all the wonderful trips these planes offer. For the second group time and money spent to achieve a new level of performance is the reward, the flying part is just a nice benefit.
15 years ago I was enthralled with the prospect of putting a Delta Hawk diesel engine in my RV-8A project. It quickly became evident that this was a pipe dream and went with a new engine from Van’s. Another example was the Blue Mountain EFIS offering. The lesson taught to me was look beyond the marketing hype for such companies and decide if the company would survive beyond the beta phase. My hard Lightspeed ignition failures in the 8A also educated me on the importance of “service after the sale”, and my decision to dump that ignition for pMags.
My point being no one should ignore the experience of other builders. Our community is small enough that few should repeat the problems others have already encountered. New builders have responsibility to listen, seasoned builders have responsibility to share their lessons learned. The new builder will need to add his/her filter to reconcile conflicting recommendations. On this last part, facts and data will always bubble about the hype.
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of lewgall(at)charter.net
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 9:49 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Return Line Location?
I promise I am reading every word of this thread with great interest. The fuel line location has long been dealt with.
What would the appropriate label of this topic be?
Do not archive.
Later, – Lew
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Rocketman1988
Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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"This group will end up with some confidence that they (and their passengers) are not on the cutting edge of experimental when doing all the wonderful trips these planes offer. For the second group time and money spent to achieve a new level of performance is the reward, the flying part is just a nice benefit."
Nicely put.
Obviously then, it is the second group that implements change causing progress, which the first group then adopts. See, everybody wins...
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wgreenley
Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 100
Location: Dowagiac, MI
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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I have not received any job aids for LG, should I be creating those,
normally they are provided and I just format. Job aids were not in the
requirement doc.
Bill
--
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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I've wanted to craft a note with my thoughts on the alternative engine
issue but Ben, perhaps unintentionally, captured the essence of it, or
at least some quotable talking points. So here goes...
On 4/22/2015 11:01 PM, Ben wrote (edited):
| Quote: | My experimental just had it's 11th bithday.... Over 500 hours and
100,000 + miles of safe flight.. That equals to 4 plus times around
the earth at the equator, and it NEVER has had a off airport emergency
landing and still running perfectly.... All the time running a V-8
Ford ( ALTERNATIVE) engine in it...
Congrats and Well Done!! That's a very cool machine.
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My experimental is coming up on it's 4th with roughly the same hours and
miles of safe flight. All the time running a stock experimental
Lycosaur. I wouldn't have imagined any other result at this point.
| Quote: | I am dumber that a fence post and I pulled it off..... So far,....The
day is still young though....
Hardly! I don't know you but would guess you are brighter than most of
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us on this forum. I KNOW you are knowledgeable and talented when it
comes to engines if for no other reason than your experience with your
'alternative' engine. You seem totally up to the task. It's a
dangerous fallacy to think any other of us are up to the task of
experimenting safely and productively with alternative engines, even if
the objective is nothing more than a bit of intellectual stimulation and
personal transportation.
The engine is the most complex part of our experimental planes.
'Anybody' can build a Van's kit whether a QB or a pre-hole punched kit.
'Anybody' can mount a Lycoming on the front and most of us could
maintain it. 'Many' of us could modify a kit and mount someone's
alternative engine kit on the front. "A few" of us could trouble shoot
and maintain it successfully. "Very few" of us are up to the task of
developing an alternative engine for an airplane. NO ONE has come up
with an alternative engine solution that the rest of us can buy at any
price point, that performs better and longer than what we can buy from
Lycoming. Many people have tried and are trying. I hope for success
but don't plan on it.
| Quote: | To quote a movie line... " A man has to know his limitations"
Like any endeavor, some people engaged in the pursuit are not up to the
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task. The problem with alternative aircraft engine work is that a failed
engine can hurt and kill very easily. The bar is a bit lower for
alternative fuel systems and ignition systems but a failed engine can
hurt and kill just as easily.
So, to be completely honest, my desire is to try and discourage as many
people as possible from experimenting around with alternative engines
and alternative engine systems, especially around the RV 'family
cruiser' 10. Hopefully, only those with enough knowledge, experience
and talent will persevere and fewer acquaintances will get hurt or die
trying.
Bill "hoping I'm up to the task of maintaining my Lycosaur" Watson
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Rocketman1988
Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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You know, I had typed a substantial reply but I decided that it just isn't worth the time. People all have opinions and it is darn near impossible to change them, therefore, this whole thread is sort of a moot discussion.
This discussion is actually kind of ironic. If everyone settled for "the way it has always been done", would there even BE the EAA? Obviously, Van thought there were better ways to do things...what about Rutan? Building an airplane out of foam and fiberglass? That's just nonsense...
Granted, these guys were not your average Joes but the point is they DIDN'T stay with the status quo. They redefined it. Only time will tell what or who the next big thing will be..it's going to be interesting.
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:59 pm Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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See Amy Laboda's report on the turbine powered RV-10 in this month's Kitplanes.
250 shp turboprop. It will out climb the Lycoming after the Lyc starts pushing temp limits. Especially because the engine is maybe 1/2 wt of the Lyc.
But, initially it was losing 20+ knots in cruise the the Lyc. After they rectified the shape and angle of the exhaust pipes, they have it up to matching the Lyc in cruise. It only burns about 20-25% more fuel below 10K and maybe somewhat less into the lower flight levels. Not to mention the engine/prop combo cost as much as an entire, well equipped Lyc powered -10. But if you fly where avgas is unobtainable, makes sense.
I was concerned it might be pushing the design flutter speed, but apparently it is sized to provide same power as Lyc. Seems like maybe the SMA 230 hp French diesel used in 182's would be easier to mount and fly, with Jet A or diesel fuel available everywhere. Might even beat the Lyc for fuel efficiency.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
The engine is the most complex part of our experimental planes. 'Anybody' can build a Van's kit whether a QB or a pre-hole punched kit. 'Anybody' can mount a Lycoming on the front and most of us could maintain it. NO ONE has come up with an alternative engine solution that the rest of us can buy at any price point, that performs better and longer than what we can buy from Lycoming. Many people have tried and are trying. I hope for success but don't plan on it.
[b]
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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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jdriggs49(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:04 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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I've been keeping an eye on that -10 turbine conversion since it first appeared at the air shows. The only advantage I could see was for areas where av gas was not available or too expensive. The engineering and fabrication involved had to been quite complicated. Of course the "cool factor" is off the charts!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 20:57:00 -0700
Subject: Re: RV10-List: Re: Fuel Return Line Location?
From: apilot2(at)gmail.com
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
See Amy Laboda's report on the turbine powered RV-10 in this month's Kitplanes.
250 shp turboprop. It will out climb the Lycoming after the Lyc starts pushing temp limits. Especially because the engine is maybe 1/2 wt of the Lyc.
But, initially it was losing 20+ knots in cruise the the Lyc. After they rectified the shape and angle of the exhaust pipes, they have it up to matching the Lyc in cruise. It only burns about 20-25% more fuel below 10K and maybe somewhat less into the lower flight levels. Not to mention the engine/prop combo cost as much as an entire, well equipped Lyc powered -10. But if you fly where avgas is unobtainable, makes sense.
I was concerned it might be pushing the design flutter speed, but apparently it is sized to provide same power as Lyc. Seems like maybe the SMA 230 hp French diesel used in 182's would be easier to mount and fly, with Jet A or diesel fuel available everywhere. Might even beat the Lyc for fuel efficiency.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Bill Watson <[url=mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com]Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com[/url]> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <[url=mailto:Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com]Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com[/url]>
The engine is the most complex part of our experimental planes. 'Anybody' can build a Van's kit whether a QB or a pre-hole punched kit. 'Anybody' can mount a Lycoming on the front and most of us could maintain it. NO ONE has come up with an alternative engine solution that the rest of us can buy at any price point, that performs better and longer than what we can buy from Lycoming. Many people have tried and are trying. I hope for success but don't plan on it.
ist" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
ank>http://forums.matronics.com
rget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[b]
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:23 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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Also off the charts is the fuel burn and the price tag. The engine alone costs more than a flying RV-10 with a brand new Lycoming, and fuel burn in cruise is almost double that of a Lycoming RV-10 (21.7gph versus 11.5gph).
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Danny Riggs
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 7:00 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Fuel Return Line Location?
I've been keeping an eye on that -10 turbine conversion since it first appeared at the air shows. The only advantage I could see was for areas where av gas was not available or too expensive. The engineering and fabrication involved had to been quite complicated. Of course the "cool factor" is off the charts!
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 20:57:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Re: Fuel Return Line Location?
From: apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
See Amy Laboda's report on the turbine powered RV-10 in this month's Kitplanes.
250 shp turboprop. It will out climb the Lycoming after the Lyc starts pushing temp limits. Especially because the engine is maybe 1/2 wt of the Lyc.
But, initially it was losing 20+ knots in cruise the the Lyc. After they rectified the shape and angle of the exhaust pipes, they have it up to matching the Lyc in cruise. It only burns about 20-25% more fuel below 10K and maybe somewhat less into the lower flight levels. Not to mention the engine/prop combo cost as much as an entire, well equipped Lyc powered -10. But if you fly where avgas is unobtainable, makes sense.
I was concerned it might be pushing the design flutter speed, but apparently it is sized to provide same power as Lyc. Seems like maybe the SMA 230 hp French diesel used in 182's would be easier to mount and fly, with Jet A or diesel fuel available everywhere. Might even beat the Lyc for fuel efficiency.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
The engine is the most complex part of our experimental planes. 'Anybody' can build a Van's kit whether a QB or a pre-hole punched kit. 'Anybody' can mount a Lycoming on the front and most of us could maintain it. NO ONE has come up with an alternative engine solution that the rest of us can buy at any price point, that performs better and longer than what we can buy from Lycoming. Many people have tried and are trying. I hope for success but don't plan on it.
01234567890123
[quote][b]
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:51 am Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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I just checked it out. Very cool... or hot or whatever.
I thought the fuel burn numbers were more like 50%+ greater than the Lyc - expressed in GPH or MPG. But I might wrong there.
Anyway, the turbines always get my attention because I live on a grass strip with a Jet-A tank (!!). Let's see, we sell the Lyc, modify the '10, mortgage the house... oh nevermind.
The tale of the exhaust stack problem is interesting. Far beyond where they guys with the turbine RV-8 were with the cutoff stack. I think it was reviewed a year or two ago. Apparently it produced so much back pressure in the engine it couldn't achieve anywhere near full power.
On 4/24/2015 11:57 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
[quote] See Amy Laboda's report on the turbine powered RV-10 in this month's Kitplanes.
250 shp turboprop. It will out climb the Lycoming after the Lyc starts pushing temp limits. Especially because the engine is maybe 1/2 wt of the Lyc.
But, initially it was losing 20+ knots in cruise the the Lyc. After they rectified the shape and angle of the exhaust pipes, they have it up to matching the Lyc in cruise. It only burns about 20-25% more fuel below 10K and maybe somewhat less into the lower flight levels. Not to mention the engine/prop combo cost as much as an entire, well equipped Lyc powered -10. But if you fly where avgas is unobtainable, makes sense.
I was concerned it might be pushing the design flutter speed, but apparently it is sized to provide same power as Lyc. Seems like maybe the SMA 230 hp French diesel used in 182's would be easier to mount and fly, with Jet A or diesel fuel available everywhere. Might even beat the Lyc for fuel efficiency.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>
at
The engine is the most complex part of our experimental planes. 'Anybody' can build a Van's kit whether a QB or a pre-hole punched kit. 'Anybody' can mount a Lycoming on the front and most of us could maintain it. NO ONE has come up with an alternative engine solution that the rest of us can buy at any price point, that performs better and longer than what we can buy from Lycoming. Many people have tried and are trying. I hope for success but don't plan on it.
|
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
04/24/15 [b]
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jdriggs49(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:15 pm Post subject: Fuel Return Line Location? |
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While I was at Sun-n-Fun I made it a point to look at the new engines and ignition systems out there. Continental had a diesel and also a gas engine with electronic ignition. So did Lycoming. There were numerous examples of engines for LSAs that had electronic ignition and or FI. These newer designs seemed to be more cutting edge than C or L engines. That is probably to be expected. So, the moral of the story is that electronic ignition and to a lesser degree electronic fuel injection is present and here to stay whether we like it or not.
I noticed that the diesel engines were all lower horsepower (+ or - 100 hp). It will be more interesting when they can produce a diesel that is of reasonable weight and of 250 hp or more. Of course we probably wont be able to afford to buy them! The diesels are already way too expense to buy unless you live where avgas is $10+ a gallon.
| Quote: | Subject: RV10-List: Re: Fuel Return Line Location?
From: Rocketman(at)etczone.com
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 20:41:33 -0700
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Rocketman1988" <Rocketman(at)etczone.com>
You know, I had typed a substantial reply but I decided that it just isn't worth the time. People all have opinions and it is darn near impossible to change them, therefore, this whole thread is sort of a moot discussion.
This discussion is actually kind of ironic. If everyone settled for "the way it has always been done", would there even BE the EAA? Obviously, Van thought there were better ways to do things...what about Rutan? Building an airplane out of foam and fiberglass? That's just nonsense...
Granted, these guys were not your average Joes but the point is they DIDN'T stay with the status quo. They redefined it. Only time will tell what or who the next big thing will be..it's going to be interesting.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441274#441274
=================
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