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Electrics on a Europa. (NOW FIXED Rgds Alan)
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Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:55 am Post subject: Electrics on a Europa. (NOW FIXED Rgds Alan)

Hello ALL.

I have a problem,My charge rate is barley maintaining my battery. 

Engine running 2000 rpms , MASTER SWITCH ON, All CBs pulled out, even number 1 fuel pump CB momentary pulled as its  a 914 engine, voltmeter reads 12.1 volts, so all the electrics are off as far as I know,?



Turn the MASTER SWITCH OFF, voltmeter jumps to 12.9 volts.

So something is happening when switching the Master on and off jumping for 12 to 12.9.



Any Comments as to what's the problem.



Alan

Last edited by Alan Carter on Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:44 pm; edited 2 times in total

pestar

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

At 2000rpm on my Rotax 914 there is insufficient output from the alternator to charge the battery.  I use a Low Voltage Warning and Aux Battery Management Module from http://periheliondesign.com and the warning led kicks out well above 2000rpm.



Would not worry.



Cheers Peter

_________________
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me Smile

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,

I doubt there’s a problem.  My alternator doesn’t come on line till I advance to about 2500 RPM.  Drops off at about 2200 RPM when I retard the throttle.  As long as your low voltage light goes out well before you reach cruise RPM and stays out during cruise I’d say you’re OK.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



[quote]On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:55 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>Hello ALL.I have a problem,My charge rate is barley maintaining my battery. Engine running 2000 rpms , MASTER SWITCH ON, All CBs pulled out, even number 1 fuel pump CB momentary pulled as its  a 914 engine, voltmeter reads 12.1 volts, so all the electrics are off as far as I know,?Turn the MASTER SWITCH OFF, voltmeter jumps to 12.9 volts.So something is happening when switching the Master on and off jumping for 12 to 12.9.Any Comments as to what's the problem.Alan

[b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hi , Bob, Peter.

I have no low voltage warning light just a voltmeter,

The problem is that in cruise my with all my panel working, that's the T/Co- odinator, TCU, FlyDat Engine inst,, 1 Fuel Pump, 1 Strobe Lt,

Skyforce GPS, Transponder, Radio,

I get about 12.1 volts showing, 

Pull all the CBs and you  get a little more showing.



Now if you switch the MASTER SWITCH OFF, it fly's up to 13.1 volts.

I take it now that the Alternator has taken over the supply to the fuel pump

provided its turned ON. 

So with the Master switch off and 13+ volts coming out it does not look like being the Alternator or Rectifier, wear is the power going ?????

 

12v is not enough to maintain a full battery

Have bought a new battery ,but the old one is as good as the new one, so it not the battery.



Alan

pestar

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Not knowing your plane or its schematics, if you are concerned borrow a spare Ducati regulator and swap it out and see if anything changes.  The Ducati regulators Rotax uses can be a bit flakey.  I do not use one, instead I use a Schicke GR6 as it is more robust than the Ducati.



Cheers Peter

_________________
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me Smile

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hi. Peter.

Many thanks for your reply, "Borrow" not sure this word is still in the English Dictionary I live in England every thing is chained up or bolted down, you have a lot more going for you in New Zealand, like this country was 40 yeas ago .

I have looked into this and can buy a new one for about Â£87 maybe I should do that, how ever I have checked it with a voltmeter.

To me its like when you switch the Master Switch on, the power goes the earth somewhere along the line.????



Alan

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 654

Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,



To figure out what is wrong, you must have the wiring diagram for your specific airplane.  There is a basic wiring diagram in the build manual that may be a good starting point for you.  Once you have the diagram, troubleshooting is not difficult.



It sounds like your Rotax dynamo and regulator/rectifier are working correctly.  As others have said, the Rotax system does not put out much voltage at 2000 rpm.  Our 914 puts out about 13.4 volts at 5000 rpm.



Get the diagram figured out and then see what is loading down the system.



Jim & Heather

N241BW

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan, 

 A good schematic is worth its weight in gold for troubleshooting.  

 

 

 Good advice from all on the charging.  It should be about 13.7 volts at 5000 RPM below 15-18 amps draw.

 

 

 I start by pulling all the circuit breakers on the ground.  Measure the bat voltage with a volt meter then turn on the master.  Check which components come on with the master ( those items not on CBs).

 

 

 The master contactor can draw one amp.  Look up your solenoid specs.

 

 

 You need to use a VTVM or amp/ volt/ohm meter to check amp draw as you flip on components.

 

 

 Next, ensure your C or control voltage reads battery voltage.  Look to see your alternator to panel or battery contact is secure.

 

 

 Then start pushing in CBs to assess.  Make a list of the components on each of your CBs and their draw if you can.  As an example, a turn and slip going bad can be troublesome as the flag doesn't show but it is burning up amps instead of running at less  than an amp.

 

 

 

 

 In my opinion, the only way to check the health of your electrical system in flight is with a volt and amp meter.   You may want to invest in one.  Westach makes a nice combo instrument.

 

 

 Keep plugging away you'll find the cause.

 

 

 Bud Yerly,

 Custom Flight Creations, Inc.

 

 

 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

 

 On Aug 31, 2015 10:43 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net> wrote: 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net>

 

 Hi , Bob, Peter.

 I have no low voltage warning light just a voltmeter,

 The problem is that in cruise my with all my panel working, that's the T/Co- odinator, TCU, FlyDat Engine inst,, 1 Fuel Pump, 1 Strobe Lt,

 Skyforce GPS, Transponder, Radio,

 I get about 12.1 volts showing, 

 Pull all the CBs and you  get a little more showing.

 

 Now if you switch the MASTER SWITCH OFF, it fly's up to 13.1 volts.

 I take it now that the Alternator has taken over the supply to the fuel pump

 provided its turned ON. 

 So with the Master switch off and 13+ volts coming out it does not look like being the Alternator or Rectifier, wear is the power going ?????

  

 12v is not enough to maintain a full battery

 Have bought a new battery ,but the old one is as good as the new one, so it not the battery.

 

 Alan

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446614#446614

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ; - The Europa-List Email Forum -

 r?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

 ;      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 ://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 ;    - List Contribution Web Site -

 ;                     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 tion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 

 

    [quote][b]

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:25 am Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,

 

You have some good advice from Bud but if you do not have a multimeter or a wiring diagram it will be difficult to trouble shoot using normal electrical processes.Â  The alternative is to make a few basic checks which can be done with no electrical knowledge or electrical test equipment..

 

There is a possibility that the alternator supply is insufficient to support the loads that you are applying.Â  Based on previous field experience the part that gives most trouble is the regulator.Â  Most owners donâ€™t change the firewall forward part of the electrical system so the standard Rotax electrical diagram, available in their manual, or the Europa Build Manual basic electrical diagram should give you some guidance.Â  The alternator supply should be protected by a large fuse or circuit breaker. Track it down and check physically if it is tripped/ blown.Â  You donâ€™t need a meter for this.Â  Then check all of the connections to the regulator.Â  They are automotive spade connections, normally inside a plastic plug.Â  Check all of the connections are free of corrosion and are tight.Â  Next check the earth connection on the body of the regulator.Â  Remove and clean the earth connection.Â  Next take a deep breath and buy a replacement regulator. If it does not fix it you now have a spare for when yours does fail or you can sell it to someone who has had a regulator failure and is desperate for a replacement.

 

If you are still in trouble you will now need to become an aviation electrical engineer and start proper trouble shooting as described by many posters.

 

Good luck!

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly

Sent: 06 September 2015 00:17

To: europa-list

Subject: Re: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

 

Alan, 



A good schematic is worth its weight in gold for troubleshooting.  



 



Good advice from all on the charging.  It should be about 13.7 volts at 5000 RPM below 15-18 amps draw.



 



I start by pulling all the circuit breakers on the ground.  Measure the bat voltage with a volt meter then turn on the master.  Check which components come on with the master ( those items not on CBs).



 



The master contactor can draw one amp.  Look up your solenoid specs.



 



You need to use a VTVM or amp/ volt/ohm meter to check amp draw as you flip on components.



 



Next, ensure your C or control voltage reads battery voltage.  Look to see your alternator to panel or battery contact is secure.



 



Then start pushing in CBs to assess.  Make a list of the components on each of your CBs and their draw if you can.  As an example, a turn and slip going bad can be troublesome as the flag doesn't show but it is burning up amps instead of running at less than an amp.



 



 



In my opinion, the only way to check the health of your electrical system in flight is with a volt and amp meter.   You may want to invest in one.  Westach makes a nice combo instrument.



 



Keep plugging away you'll find the cause.



 



Bud Yerly,



Custom Flight Creations, Inc.



 



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

On Aug 31, 2015 10:43 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)> wrote:



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Alan Carter" <alancarteresq(at)onetel.net (alancarteresq(at)onetel.net)>



Hi , Bob, Peter.

I have no low voltage warning light just a voltmeter,

The problem is that in cruise my with all my panel working, that's the T/Co- odinator, TCU, FlyDat Engine inst,, 1 Fuel Pump, 1 Strobe Lt,

Skyforce GPS, Transponder, Radio,

I get about 12.1 volts showing, 

Pull all the CBs and you  get a little more showing.



Now if you switch the MASTER SWITCH OFF, it fly's up to 13.1 volts.

I take it now that the Alternator has taken over the supply to the fuel pump

provided its turned ON. 

So with the Master switch off and 13+ volts coming out it does not look like being the Alternator or Rectifier, wear is the power going ?????

 

12v is not enough to maintain a full battery

Have bought a new battery ,but the old one is as good as the new one, so it not the battery.



Alan





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446614#446614



===========

; - The Europa-List Email Forum -

r?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===========

;      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

://forums.matronics.com

===========

;    - List Contribution Web Site -

;                     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

tion">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========





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  [quote][b]

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hi Bob ,Brian.

Thank for posting,

As you can see I have another problem with the Prop, PV50.

This has taken priority over my electrical problem, but will do as you say when have the time, 

As far as I can make out nothing is running with all the CBs pulled, the TCU I can hear, but pull the CB and it stops, turning every thing back on,

does not draw that much, the volt meter drops just a Little.

Every CB pulled, turn Master off and the voltmeter jumps up.



Alan

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hi All.

Going back to my problem.

All CBs Pulled, Master Switch OFF.

Master ON nothing running, I hear a clunk, like a relay jumping into action, from the rear of the cockpit. What it this clunk?Relay? sound, 



Alan

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,



If you have your battery in the rear of the aircraft it could possibly be

the battery master contactor (relay).  It is big beast and it would be

perfectly normal for it to make a sound when it engages.



Regards



Brian



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hi Brian.

The battery is in the rear, thought it might be some type of relay.

Gen on , Master off ,all CBs out, 13v

Master on clunk 12v

Alan

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:38 pm Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,



I am assuming you are doing this with the engine not running.  What voltage

do you get when you run the engine up to 4,000rpm?



Brian



--

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Sounds more like "Master OFf" clunk, 12V to me? Could the switch be wrong way round or something?

Graham

  



     On Thursday, 10 September 2015, 8:39, Brian Davies <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk> wrote:

  

  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk (brian.davies(at)clara.co.uk)>



Alan,



I am assuming you are doing this with the engine not running.  What voltage

do you get when you run the engine up to 4,000rpm?



Brian



--

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Morning Grahams.

Well, I have not been up to the hanger, but I think it might be a "Two Clunks" Master on Clunk, Master Off clunk,



Going Clunking mad over this,

Have paid for new battery, now a have new rectifier to fit when I get time.



Alan

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:59 am Post subject: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,



I may be saying the obvious but don't turn the battery master off with the

engine running.  You can get some big voltage spikes when you do this that

might fry other equipment.



Regards



Brian



--

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 654

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Alan,



The last page of this factory link has a basic wiring diagram.



http://www.europa-aircraft.co.uk/upload/CBM%20-%2025%20-%20ELECTRICAL%20SYSTEM.pdf



It sounds like your Europa may be wired similar to this.  You certainly have the optional battery isolator (master relay).  What isn't clear is how your voltmeter is connected.  By this diagram your voltmeter would indicate only if the master is ON and the instruments CB is ON. 



When you have the Master OFF and the Gen ON, there is no 12v for the Ducatti regulator/rectifier.  Lead C of the Ducatti needs 12V to operate the internal electrical circuitry and also to sense the system voltage.  Without it, I'm not sure what the indication would be.



As stated before, at 2000 rpm the voltage will be low.  The Rotax is NOT an alternator, it is a DYNMO.  It's output voltage is dependent on the engine rpm and it is quite low until the rpm is above at least 4000.  5000 rpm is better.



Surely a LAA inspector can help you determine how your Europa is wired and what the problem is.  



There may be no problem, you just need to operate at 5000 rpm.  As Brian pointed out, be sure there is a good ground connection from the case of the Ducatti to the aircraft ground.  Also be sure all the ground connections are secure, especially from the battery to the engine and to the system ground.



Jim Butcher

N241BW

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 654

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Actually, change the sentence about the voltmeter.  Your voltmeter would only operate if the engine instrument CB is ON.  It will show battery voltage only if the Master is ON.



Jim

Alan Carter

Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 378
Location: Kent, England.

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Electrics on a Europa.

Hello All.

Think! I may have fixed it.

Fitted a new Rectifier about Â£80, Now seeing 12.9 to 13v on the voltmeter with a fully charged battery, 

Now, Master ON/OFF needle flicks but remains at 13v ( before it use to be 12.1 on and 13 off see past post)

I believe I read you should not flick the Master ON and Off with the engine running, so won't do it again as all seems OK now.



Thanks All

Alan

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