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VORTEX GENERATORS
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Possum

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Georgia

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

At 09:33 PM 1/16/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Mark wrote:



I get like 1000 hits back when I search "possums", someone with that 

name posts a lot !!!


	


I don't like to brag, but with any kind of decent head wind - I can lower a

beer down to my friends on the ground - with a fishing line.



With a good head wind I can land "tail first" at our 900 ft strip.

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

With a really good wind, I can fill a beer bottle with my relief tube  

being held by the Line Boy.



Bob N.



pls don't archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't like to brag, but with any kind of decent head wind - I can lower a 

beer down to my friends on the ground - with a fishing line. 



With a good head wind I can land "tail first" at our 900 ft strip.

	




If possum says it, he can do it.



If I wear my possum shirt (honorary possum, see attached photo) I can do the same thing.

Possum.JPG

Description:

Official Possum Uniform (Honorary)

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123.45 KB

Viewed:

574 Time(s)

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Quote: 	
		  With a really good wind, I can fill a beer bottle with my relief tube 

being held by the Line Boy. 



Bob N. 

	




If the Grey Baron says he can do it, I believe it too!!!

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

kinnepix(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:01 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

No photo attached! -- now I'm curious --



On Jan 16, 2006, at 11:15 PM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

> I don't like to brag, but with any kind of decent head wind - I  

> can lower a

> beer down to my friends on the ground - with a fishing line.

>

> With a good head wind I can land "tail first" at our 900 ft strip.

>

 If possum says it, he can do it.



 If I wear my possum shirt (honorary possum, see attached photo) I  

 can do the same thing.



 --------

 John Hauck

 MKIII/912ULS

 hauck's holler, alabama





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4612#4612





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/possum_337.jpg

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

You better hope he doesn't yank on that tube.                     Lar. 

Do not Archive.



Larry Bourne

Palm Springs, CA

Building Kolb Mk III

N78LB  Vamoose

www.gogittum.com



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

John Jung

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Surprise, AZ, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:24 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Group,



Here is my reaction to all this talk about VG's. I just ordered a set from Landshorter.com. Actually, VGs have been on my list for a long time now, I just decided that it is time.



And it won't be the first time for VGs on my Firestar. I used a set of the flashing type for a few days. At that time I was not happy with either the looks or the performance. The performance problem was caused, I believe, by my putting them only in front of the ailerons. I chose the Landshorter ones because they don't look so bad.

_________________
John Jung
Firestar II N6163J
Surprise, AZ

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Thats where im ordering my VG's from  (  www.landshorter.com  )



The shape and size of the vortex generators has to be critical      If you made them and got the angles, sizes, etc wrong, I can immagine they didnt work very well.  Landshorter.com says they tested their VG's in the wind tunnel to get everything right...  The fact that they look great is jsut a bonus   .   For all the research, and optmization they have done, 100 bucks is a bargain.  Even if I can make the vortex generators for free, If I have to spend days and days getting them right, the cost becomes huge in time lost.  



Also just putting the vortex generators just front of the ailerons only covers less than 40 % of the wing.  You cannot expect much with just covering 40% of the wing...  you need to cover the whole thing !  Also the distance from the leading edge is critical, if you anyone gets one of these things wrong the results could prove very dissapointing   



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Having played with a variety of vortex generator setups on Kolb wings, 

both MKIII and FSII, my experience is exactly the opposite. Nothing 

worked worse than stock, everything gave at least some improvement, and 

certain arrangements seemed optimum, or at least within my creative 

abilities.



None of it was time lost. None. It was fun experimenting. That's why 

they are called "Experimental Aircraft." Because you can have fun 

experimenting with them. And if it is a Kolb airfoil, it tolerates 

experimenting very well.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thats where im ordering mine from  (  www.landshorter.com  )



The shape and size of those things has to be critical  [Shocked]    If you made them and got the angles, sizes, etc wrong, I can immagine they didnt work very well.  Landshorter.com says they tested in the wind tunnel to get everything right...  For all the research, and optmization they have done, 100 bucks is a bargain.  Even if I can make the vortex generators for free, If I have to spend days and days getting them right, the cost becomes huge in time lost.



Also just putting the vortex generators just front of the ailerons only covers less than 40 % of the wing.  You cannot expect much with just covering 40% of the wing...  you need to cover the whole thing !  Also the distance from the leading edge is critical, if you anyone gets any one of these things wrong the results could prove very dissapointing  [Evil or Very Mad] 



Michael A. Bigelow



--------

NO FEAR -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=4823#4823

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

edchmiel(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

Hi Rev. Pike,



        I agree.  The variety of shapes and configurations for various 

mfgr's VG's is amazing.  I've flown with at least 3 different makes on GA 

aircraft, mainly Cessna 400-series and Piper twins.  Some run parallel down 

the entire wing, some are on just half the wing, others are paired in 'V' 

shapes, and some can be found on the bottom of the horizontal stab.  They 

even have directions if a few fall off - just fly the aircraft as if there 

are no VG's.  Some did give a more pronounced stall break, but the over-all 

improvements in handling were worth the trade-off.



Ed in JXN

MkII/503



---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Sizes and locations of vortex generators are going to be different for each different aircraft.  VG's will probably be an improvement no matter what, but to get the OPTIMUM benefit, they need to be of the correct size, shape, and placement on the wing.  



The vortex generators sold by www.landshorter.com seem to be designed for airplanes close to our size and speed range, so im figuring they are going to get the sizes and shapes closer to optimum than I could trying to design my own.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Kirk Smith

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Location: SE Michigan

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Quote: 	
		   The vortex generators sold by www.landshorter.com seem to be 

designed for airplanes close
	


to our size and speed range, 

Have they actually designed them for a Kolb and if so are the test 

results available and verifiable from an unbiased source?



Do not

archive

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

This topic is always interesting... there are those that have installed VG's and would never go back and there are those that have never tried them and have lots of doubt and skepticism.... rightfully so! 



When I first read about them on Jack Hart's website several months after I started flying my Firefly in Jan02, I was a very sceptical that something so seemingly insignificant could make that much difference in how the Firefly performs, but Jack's explanation and info was compelling, so I decided to go to HD and make up a set from Aluminum flashing.  I installed them with long strips of electrical tape through the center between the fins, in the bottom of each valley, 11-12" back from leading edge, as Jack recommended, based on his testing.  I taped them on, so I could easily remove them after proving to myself they didn't make that much difference.... well I did remove them after a couple flights.... to install them permanently!!  I put silicone under each one and then reinstalled electrical tape as a backup safety factor and I check them reguarly, but have never had one come loose one bit.



All you guys that are doubters and skeptics, the only thing I have to say to you is try them on your plane before you give lots of advice or plant doubt in others minds.  I assure you there is nothing you will ever do to your Kolb that will get close to as much bang for the buck as even home made vortex generators will do for your Kolb.  I have never noticed a single negative characteristic, regarding the way my plane flies, performance or handling.  In fact, just the opposite.  The Firefly had quite a bit of overbanking tendency before.... not now!  Stalls are gentler and slow speed flight is incredibly stable... feels like I can hang from the prop and never drop a wing.  Aileron effectivess and authority is much better, stall speed is lower, etc, etc...  Make sure you also install them on the lower side of the Horizontal Stab's in the rear or your tail will stall before your wings.  



If you don't believe they work, then keep flying without them, but please don't discourage those  newbies that are curious.  Some folks are perfectly happy with their planes characteristics and then there are some of us that always are interested in improving what is already good.  These planes fly great without Vortex Generators, but they fly even better with them.  For me, I want to have them on when I'm in an engine out situation and need to put it down in a small space and want to land as slow as possible.  



I'm for sure in the category of folks that would never go back to flying my Firefly without them!  Every claim Jack made was right on!!  Thanks Jack for making me aware of them early on in my flying experience!!  Your website was a wealth of info to me early on and I'm sure others have learned from your website as well.  Keep up the good work!!  



Cheers, Jim

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

<< I really like what im hearing from you guys about vortex generators, im

going to get the ones from www.landshorter.com    They are well tested, of

optimum height, shape, and are known to work well.  They are only 100 bucks

[Mr. Green]   You just cant beat that deal.  Michael Bigelow >>



 



Michael -



 



I bought a set of the Landshorter VGs, but have not yet installed them on my

Kolb.  For a hundred bucks, it's worth it (to me) for the time I'd save

compared to manufacturing a set from scratch.  They are single-fin VGs, made

of clear Lexan



 



The instructions recommend a spacing interval of 2.5 to 3 inches.  However,

I am contemplating the idea of placing one VG in each valley, for a total of

28 per wing for a Mark-III.  I wonder if this spacing would still allow the

VGs to be effective?



 



Has anybody else on the Kolb List installed the Landshorter VGs?



If so, how did you space them?



 



Dennis Kirby



Mark-III, 912ul



New Mexico



 



 

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<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> I really like what

im hearing from you guys about vortex generators, im going to get the ones from

www.landshorter.com They

are well tested, of optimum height, shape, and are known to work well.

They are only 100 bucks [Mr. Green] You just cant beat that

deal. Michael Bigelow 



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Michael 



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I bought a set of the

Landshorter VGs, but have not yet installed them on my Kolb. For a

hundred bucks, its worth it (to me) for the time Id save compared

to manufacturing a set from scratch. They are single-fin VGs, made of

clear Lexan



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>The instructions recommend a

spacing interval of 2.5 to 3 inches. However, I am contemplating the idea

of placing one VG in each valley, for a total of 28 per wing for a Mark-III.

I wonder if this spacing would still allow the VGs to be effective?



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Has anybody else on the Kolb

List installed the Landshorter VGs?



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If so, how did you space

them?



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Dennis Kirby



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Mark-III, 912ul



<st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place

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size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span

style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>



<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;

font-family:Arial'>

David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. wrote: 	
		  I bought a set of the Landshorter VGs, but have not yet installed them on my Kolb.  For a hundred bucks, it's worth it (to me) for the time I'd save compared to manufacturing a set from scratch.  They are single-fin VGs, made of clear Lexan

Has anybody else on the Kolb List installed the Landshorter VGs? 	




I installed Lexan type VGs on my experimental Super Cub and wished I had gone with metal (like on my Firestar)...  In the process of cleaning the wings, three times I broke the Lexan VGs and had to replace them...  They're not as flexible as they look...



DVD

_________________
ô¿ô

"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

--- George Bernard Shaw

kiwimick

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Location: ENGLAND

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

All,

The Landshorter VG's we have extensively tested and gained approval for on 

our Xtra in the UK are spaced at 3" and at 10% of wing chord, this is 225 

millimeters back measured from the front apex of the L/E up over the camber.

Hope this helps.



Mike

Xtra/Jab2200

---

_________________
Mike the kiwi Kolber in England.......

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

Men..

here was my expierience with  VG's

 Started out by seeing all the posts here a few years ago and wondering about them...did a patent search on VG designs.

Discovered a wealth of info at the US patent site.

Much info from Military experiments back in the late 40,s up to current mach capable birds. 

INstalled home-made Vgs in the common fashion discussed here and Kolb list members websites. Used double sided carpet tape and moved them about 3 times fore and aft..mostly just to see what would happen.

never took em off after that..only moved them around.

Came to the conclusion that the farther forward you put them...the better your low speed stall and handleing is, the farthwer back...the higher your rate of climb was..but the stall speed goes back up some. FireFly could be made to climb at the angle of a Firestar with VG's.

After a year and a half...and after looseing a few...knocking some off when washing..(they are a pain in this regard)...bought LandShorters for a hundred bucks.

 My opinion is they work better than the ones I made..look better, and are easier to wash around.

They are on the FireFly permanent as far as I am concerned. IN a nutshell...they give the FFly a wing of a FStar...without the extra drag. If you try em...its a no-brainer. You will keep em!



BEst 100 bucks I ever spent on this plane.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland. wrote: 	
		  

The instructions recommend a spacing interval of 2.5 to 3 inches.  However,

I am contemplating the idea of placing one VG in each valley, for a total of

28 per wing for a Mark-III.  I wonder if this spacing would still allow the

VGs to be effective?

 



Dennis Kirby

	




Putting them in the valleys is probably good, but not at the expense of missing half of the generators.  The instructions say you need X number of generators for a certain leingth of wing...  If you put them in the valleys, and only have half as many generators as called for, you probably will get aobut half the benefit from them.  Those vorticies need to be over most of the wing, one in each valley will help, but you are proabably passing up 50% of the benefit doing it like that.  I will put them on as per the instructinos, or maybe inbetween and on top of each rib if that works out to being very close to what is called for.  



This is just my opinion, I have not tested yet, but I beleive Spacing the vortex generators to far apart will just limit the amount of wing that they affect, and limit your benefit from having them...   



I would write to the email address on www.landshorter.com    They have done all types of testing and im sure they would answer your question far better than I ever could.



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: VORTEX GENERATORS

I guess it would be almost too obvious to suggest that since there are a 

whole herd of Kolb pilots who have done all sorts of VG testing on 

Kolbs, and know what works, then maybe it might be useful to listen to 

what they are saying and try what they are doing?

Nah, never mind. That's a waste of time.

Ask somebody else.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



do not archive

JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  <snip>

This is just my opinion, I have not tested yet, but I beleive Spacing the vortex generators to far apart will just limit the amount of wing that they affect, and limit your benefit from having them...   



I would write to the email address on www.landshorter.com    They have done all types of testing and im sure they would answer your question far better than I ever could.



Michael A. Bigelow

  



<snip>

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Re: VORTEX GENERATORS

 	  Richard Pike wrote: 	
		  I guess it would be almost too obvious to suggest that since there are a 

whole herd of Kolb pilots who have done all sorts of VG testing on 

Kolbs, and know what works, then maybe it might be useful to listen to 

what they are saying and try what they are doing?

	




You could not be more correct.  Thats exactly why I started this thread before buying them   



Michael A. Bigelow

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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