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GPS antenna cable length

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:55 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

This is a question for avionics gurus. After one full year of good service, my G5 EFIS with its enabled internal GPS antenna started to display wrong attitude information. After talking to the G3X team at Garmin, a software update fixed the issue, but after reviewing the recorded data of one of my flights, they came back to me and suggested I install an external antenna to improve the GPS reception. So I purchased a GA26C antenna (picture attached). The antenna comes ready for use with an 8 ft cable and BNC connector. I need only 2 ft to install the antenna on top of the instrument panel, therefore my questions: performance wise, is there an inconvenience to install the antenna as it is and attach the loops of extra cable length together? Is it worth cutting the extra length and install a new BNC connector? Would that reduce possible losses and/or susceptibility to electromagnetic interferences ?



Remi Guerner

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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:23 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Remi,



Just my 2Â¢.  If you ask the Garmin folks they will insist that you not shorten the wire.  As such, just loop the excess and tuck it away under your instrument panel.  



Many years ago I upgraded an original Garmin to WAAS and the replacement antenna came with about 4 meters of cable.  The instructions forbade any attempt to shorten the cable as it would negatively impact the signal from the antenna.  So even though a meter of cable would have been more than sufficient to go from the Garmin to the antenna perched on the top of the instrument panel, I had to loop the other 3 meters and tuck inside the panel.



Iâ€™m going to guess about why.  It may be because many GPS antennas are powered and have electronics associated with the antenna.  The cable length may be to provide proper impedance matching from radio to antenna electronics.  Any other comments are welcome.



Blue skies & tailwinds,

Bob Borger

Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (100 hrs).

Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.

3705 Lynchburg Dr.

Corinth, TX  76208-5331

Cel: 817-992-1117

rlborger(at)mac.com



On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:






This is a question for avionics gurus. After one full year of good service, my G5 EFIS with its enabled internal GPS antenna started to display wrong attitude information. After talking to the G3X team at Garmin, a software update fixed the issue, but after reviewing the recorded data of one of my flights, they came back to me and suggested I install an external antenna to improve the GPS reception. So I purchased a GA26C antenna (picture attached). The antenna comes ready for use with an 8 ft cable and BNC connector. I need only 2 ft to install the antenna on top of the instrument panel, therefore my questions: performance wise, is there an inconvenience to install the antenna as it is and attach the loops of extra cable length together? Is it worth cutting the extra length and install a new BNC connector? Would that reduce possible losses and/or susceptibility to electromagnetic interferences ?



Remi Guerner





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478699#478699





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graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:50 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

I think you are right, reducing the cable will reduce losses but 8ft is not that significant. The introduction of a connector will introduce impedance mismatches and losses that would probably amount to more. I would leave as is and avoid tight bends in the cable.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:54 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Le 17/03/2018 Ã  14:55, Remi Guerner         a Ã©critÂ :

       

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  G5 EFIS with its enabled internal GPS antenna started to display wrong attitude information. After talking to the G3X team at Garmin, a software update fixed the issue, but after reviewing the recorded data of one of my flights, they came back to me and suggested I install an external antenna to improve the GPS reception. So I purchased a GA26C antenna (picture attached). The antenna comes ready for use with an 8 ft cable and BNC connector. I need only 2 ft to install the antenna on top of the instrument panel, therefore my questions: performance wise, is there an inconvenience to install the antenna as it is and attach the loops of extra cable length together? Is it worth cutting the extra length and install a new BNC connector? Would that reduce possible losses and/or susceptibility to electromagnetic interferences ?

	
     	
     Hi Remi,

     

     Your question seems to imply that you are using a Garmin G5 unit.

     Are you aware of this observations on the A&S Questions and     Answers about this antenna model ?

      	  Quote: 	
		  Can the GA-26C be used             as a remote antenna for the Garmin G5? 

           No, for the Garmin G5, you will need the GA 35 WAAS GPS. 	
     

     That being said, how about first trying an antenna as-is before     undertaking any surgery on the coax ?

     

     -- 

       Amicalement,

       Gilles

       http://contrails.free.fr

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 189

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Before you cut anything try it in your new position and ensure it has the desired improvement.



If you can terminate with the correct, crimped connector, then you wont introduce any additional impedance change or effects and it will reduce the amount of cable clutter behind the panel, it can become a bit of a nightmare with some devices.



If you cannot terminate with the right tools for the job, I suggest leave alone and loosely coil the cable, donâ€™t crush or kink the coax as that will change the impedance.



Thats what I would do.



Alan



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 17 Mar 2018, at 13:55, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:

 

 

 

 This is a question for avionics gurus. After one full year of good service, my G5 EFIS with its enabled internal GPS antenna started to display wrong attitude information. After talking to the G3X team at Garmin, a software update fixed the issue, but after reviewing the recorded data of one of my flights, they came back to me and suggested I install an external antenna to improve the GPS reception. So I purchased a GA26C antenna (picture attached). The antenna comes ready for use with an 8 ft cable and BNC connector. I need only 2 ft to install the antenna on top of the instrument panel, therefore my questions: performance wise, is there an inconvenience to install the antenna as it is and attach the loops of extra cable length together? Is it worth cutting the extra length and install a new BNC connector? Would that reduce possible losses and/or susceptibility to electromagnetic interferences ?

 

 Remi Guerner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478699#478699

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010978_629.jpg

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

Bonjour Gilles, 

  

     [quote]Can the GA-26C be used             as a remote antenna for the Garmin G5? 

           No, for the Garmin G5, you will need the GA 35 WAAS GPS. 



The G5 Manual recommends the GA26C among others for non certified G5 installation.

A Waas antenna is required only for certified aircraft only but the cost is not the same.



[quote]     

     That being said, how about first trying an antenna as-is before     undertaking any surgery on the coax ?  



On the Europa you need to remove the whole panel module to do that.

So better do it right on the first try!



Remi

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:33 pm Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Le 17/03/2018 Ã  20:58, Remi Guerner a Ã©critÂ :

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 The G5 Manual recommends the GA26C among others for non certified G5 installation.


	


Understand.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 On the Europa you need to remove the whole panel module to do that.


	


Ouch !

Any slack in the wiring to allow behind-the-panel access without too 

much hassle ?



 	  Quote: 	
		   So better do it right on the first try!


	


Then as advised, keeping the excess length neatly stored in a loop seems 

the way to go.

Please note that to minimize interference issues, the smaller the area 

of the loop the better. That is while preserving safe bending radius for 

the coax.

You can also twist the loop in a figure 8 without stressing the coax.

See https://support.agleader.com/kb_upload/image/coax4.jpg.



All the best,

-- 

Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr

gilles.thesee(at)free.fr
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

 	  Quote: 	
		   Please note that to minimize interference issues, the smaller the area 

 of the loop the better. That is while preserving safe bending radius 

 for the coax. 


	


Hi again,

Here is a picture to illustrate the above :

http://www.mglavionics.com/kb/article/AA-00220/0/Can-I-shorten-the-GPS-Antenna-cable.html



Hope this helps,

-- 

Best regards,

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:13 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I will install the antenna with its full length cable bundled as recommended by MGL.

Remi[/quote]

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:48 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Dumb question for the avionics experts: why not simply install the active gps antenna wart on top of the removable instrument panel on the glare shield and shorten the cable and terminate with a new matched connector using the correct crimper? Is there a magnetomer integrated into that "antenna"?



Thx,

Pete



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 18, 2018, at 4:13 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks to all who have responded to my question. I will install the antenna with its full length cable bundled as recommended by MGL.

 Remi 	


 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478720#478720

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


[/quote]

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:31 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

I installed the Garmin 430W in my Europa and it came with the eight foot cable.  I was told not to coil it.  I place the antenna just above the Hat Rack on the D bulkhead, inside,  then place the cable around the edge under the co-pilot's door ledge and then under the baggage floor then up to the antenna.  The 430 has worked beautifully.

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:20 am Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Hi Remi, 

Panel mounted EFIS units with internal GPS antennas are prone to interference depending on installation. 

  

I’ve always used an external antenna in my practice.  I mount them to a metal inverted hat shape to the top inside of the panel.  Early WAAS GPS antennas (those less expensive much lighter plastic type) work better when attached to a  metal surface. The large, heavy Garmin types have a metal base so a simple fiberglass mount in the panel works OK.   The Europa, being fiberglass, does not impede radio signals but the surrounding metal globs around these items do.  The proximity of other receiver antennas for some reason do not seem to bother one another.  Go figure. 

  

As far as antennas, I have always made my own BNC cables and connectors and never have had a problem once ohmed out.  RG 58/400 cable is fairly bulky and are easy to make to proper length.  Manufacturers normally resist allowing amateurs  to modify their cables for obvious reasons, but if you have the tools and know how, shortening a cable is perfectly fine.  I just prefer to remake the cable completely.  The small S type connectors and antenna wire, I coil up (because it is a small flexible  wire) and I place the coil in the panel away from the GPS antenna and all is fine as long as the coiled antenna wire is not wound around the antenna.  (I put mine along side the EFIS unit as its metal case should prevent interference.)    If you coil your  antenna wire, just use care where you put the coil.    Between the Garmin/Blue Mountain/EFIS of choice and the altimeter has always worked for me.  Be flexible, because if it doesn’t work in one spot it may in another.  Too bad the panel has to go in and out  if you are wrong. 

  

Electronics do go out of calibration from time to time, so a recalibration of altimeter, airspeed and EFIS systems are necessary over the life of an EFIS/NAV unit.  It just costs money and time, but not extra weight. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

Sent from  Mail for Windows 10 

  

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:55:43 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: GPS antenna cable length  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>

 

 This is a question for avionics gurus. After one full year of good service, my G5 EFIS with its enabled internal GPS antenna started to display wrong attitude information. After talking to the G3X team at Garmin, a software update fixed the issue, but after  reviewing the recorded data of one of my flights, they came back to me and suggested I install an external antenna to improve the GPS reception. So I purchased a GA26C antenna (picture attached). The antenna comes ready for use with an 8 ft cable and BNC connector.  I need only 2 ft to install the antenna on top of the instrument panel, therefore my questions: performance wise, is there an inconvenience to install the antenna as it is and attach the loops of extra cable length together? Is it worth cutting the extra length  and install a new BNC connector? Would that reduce possible losses and/or susceptibility to electromagnetic interferences ?

 

 Remi Guerner

 

 

 

 

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

Thank you Bud for sharing your experience. I take note of the idea of a metal plate under the antenna.



Regards

Remi[/quote]

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 654

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

Remi,



GPS antennas contain not only a GPS receiver but also an amplifier.  The length of coax is specified to reduce the signal strength to the proper level for the device processing and displaying the information, such as your G5.



Jim Butcher

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:17 am Post subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length

I will put on my EE hat and surmise that the reason that Garmin

advises against chopping your cable is a simple one.

GPS RF is on the north side of 1.5 GHz. Quality cable like RG400 

double braid is essential as is perfection in creating the tiny crimp 

connections.  If you do not have the equipment and expertise

to do the work, donâ€™t even try it. These are not your fatherâ€™s

PL-259/SO-239 radio shack connectors. A bad connection will 

have more attenuation than a few feet of RG400.



The dc voltage to the preamp is not a relevent factor, as

a rusty nail could carry that.



Yes, I think we have all heard that trope about specific cable lengths. 

It is, IMHO, just marketing nonsense with no technical basis, since A) the 

lengths are no where near a tuned wavelength Feedline, and B) All 

modern receivers have AGC(automatic gain control).



Full disclosure: I despise GARMIN avionics for their abysmal 

Human factors design and their absurd data pricing.

_________________
Ira N224XS

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: GPS antenna cable length

Don’t sugar coat it Ira, 

I find it refreshing to use the Garmin as they are soooo intuitive: 

Here are some easy to use notes for you. 

   

Easy to use steps for Garmin 430 Navigation for nonprogrammers. 

Garmin 430 Changes to Nav Page  

Steps: 

Clear if not on the Primary Nav Page 

Menu Push to get on primary Page 

Large Knob Rotate to select desired data field 

Small Knob Rotate to select field desired 

Enter Press 

  

START ALL OVER AGAIN BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE DESIRED PAGE OR FIELD! 

  

To enter waypoint for Nav: 

Steps: 

FPL Press 

Small Knob Rotate to select Flight Plan Catalogue Page 

Enter Press 

Right Knob Rotate to select Create New Flight Plan? 

Enter Press 

Small Knob Rotate for number/letter 

Large Knob Rotate to select next letter/number 

Check correct input with proper ICAO catalogue 

Enter Press 

Repeat for next item, 

Repeat,  

Repeat 

Enter Press 

Check Flight Plan items for accuracy 

Menu Press 

Small Knob Rotate to select item Activate Flight Plan? 

Enter Press 

Are you sure? 

Enter Press 

  

RECHARGE AIRCRAFT BATTERY OR REFUEL AIRCRAFT AFTER COMPLETING NAV INPUT! 

  

Change a Frequency from the Memory is only seven steps: 

1) Turn the large right knob to select the WPT Page Group. 

2) Turn the small right knob to select the Airport Frequencies Page  

3) Press the small right knob to place the cursor on the airport identifier field desired. 

4) Use the small and large right knobs to enter the identifier of the desired airport.  

5) Press the ENT Key when assured the data request is correct. 

6) Turn the large right knob to highlight the desired frequency. 

7) Press the ENT Key to place the highlighted frequency in the standby COM Window field. 

  

PULL OUT FROM UNUSUAL ATTITUDE! 

 

  

Regards, 

Bud 

  

Sent from  Mail for Windows 10 

  

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of rampil <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

 Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 3:17:41 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: GPS antenna cable length  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "rampil" <ira.rampil(at)gmail.com>

 

 I will put on my EE hat and surmise that the reason that Garmin

 advises against chopping your cable is a simple one.

 GPS RF is on the north side of 1.5 GHz. Quality cable like RG400 

 double braid is essential as is perfection in creating the tiny crimp 

 connections.  If you do not have the equipment and expertise

 to do the work, donâ€™t even try it. These are not your fatherâ€™s

 PL-259/SO-239 radio shack connectors. A bad connection will 

 have more attenuation than a few feet of RG400.

 

 The dc voltage to the preamp is not a relevent factor, as

 a rusty nail could carry that.

 

 Yes, I think we have all heard that trope about specific cable lengths. 

 It is, IMHO, just marketing nonsense with no technical basis, since A) the 

 lengths are no where near a tuned wavelength Feedline, and B) All 

 modern receivers have AGC(automatic gain control).

 

 Full disclosure: I despise GARMIN avionics for their abysmal 

 Human factors design and their absurd data pricing.

 

 --------

 Ira N224XS

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

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 p; - List Contribution Web Site -

 p;                  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

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