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Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS
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art(at)zemon.name
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Joe,
Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 volts or at 12.7 volts.
Cheers,
    -- Art Z.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Here is circuit.  A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode.
But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK.
Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA
If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay
contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode.  Energize the relay
with the start push button.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

AHHhhhhh  Got Ya!  Art!
Yea, you are right...  Get the EFIS to boot and stay Up and Running!
You got me thinking Art...  I am installing a E.I.  CGR 30P in a certified plane, it will be having oil pressure also...  I have to solve the same issue as you.  Of course I'll be limited with options, I'll have to try the Direct To Battery trick with a relay.
Barry
On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
Quote:
Barry,
The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge.
    -- Art Z.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The  simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to:  Turn the Avionics on AFTER you start the engine.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel






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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Joe:
I like your schematic, what program are you using to draw it?
Barry
On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 10:10 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Here is circuit.  A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode.
But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK.
Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA
If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay
contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode.  Energize the relay
with the start push button.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130




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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Art, I have noticed on a couple dual Dynon installs that while the voltage drop kicks the flight EFIS into reboot, the engine EFIS does not. I would guess this is by design. Have you asked GRT about this problem? It's possible this is something that would be worth their while to patch.

On Tue, May 15, 2018, 10:21 PM Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:

Quote:
Joe,
Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 volts or at 12.7 volts.
Cheers,
    -- Art Z.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Here is circuit.  A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode.
But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK.
Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA
If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay
contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode.  Energize the relay
with the start push button.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel






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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Art

Further to the best electric solution you certainly will find to avoid the brownout, a belt & suspenders solution could be to install a small oil pressure indicator.
At least that was my way to solve the same problem, before I decided to go with the TCW backup battery.
Cheers
Carlos

Enviado do meu iPhone

No dia 15/05/2018, às 22:03, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> escreveu:
Quote:
Barry,
The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge.
-- Art Z.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the Avionics on AFTER you start the engine.

--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel







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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Joe

Smart circuit, but will it recharge the backup battery?

Carlos
No dia 15/05/2018, às 03:10, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> escreveu:

Quote:


Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode.
But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK.
Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA
If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay
contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay
with the start push button.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130




Attachments:

http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg








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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1206
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Barry,
I used a program called Express.sch
It is free and can be downloaded here:
https://www.expresspcb.com
The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part.
Use the schematic part: express.sch
After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE.
The only choice for exporting is as a BMP file.
Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions of Windows.
Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file.


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Last edited by user9253 on Wed May 16, 2018 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Carlos,
I think the aux battery will be recharged. Normally it will only be used for a few seconds during engine cranking, so it will run down very little. A Schottky diode will drop 0.4 - 0.5 volts when conducting 5 amps. If the aircraft electrical system operates at 14.2 volts, then 14.2 - 0.5 = 13.7 volts. That is enough to recharge a battery, albeit slowly.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Art,
The Schottky diode 747-DSA300i45NA that I mentioned earlier is really overkill for this application. Smaller Schottky diodes are available for less than $1, although not as robust.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Below is an untried circuit for someone who likes to experiment. Instead of using a heavy lead acid battery, it uses two flashlight batteries in series. Depending on the load, and considering that the batteries will only be used for a few seconds at a time, size AA or C or D can be tried. The alkaline batteries will add 3 volts to the aircraft main battery voltage during engine cranking. The diode prevents the alkaline batteries from being shorted out. The diode also keeps the load energized for the few milliseconds while the relay contacts are in transition. The normally open relay contacts connect the alkaline batteries during engine start. After starting the engine, the normally closed relay contacts short out the diode during normal operation to give full voltage to the load. If the relay coil or N.C. contacts fail, the EFIS will still get power through the diode. Before I get flamed, I am not necessarily recommending this circuit, just offering it to experimenters.

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Joe:
Thank you very much for the information.
I'll give it a try.  I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am software challenged Wink
Barry
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
I used a program called Express.sch
It is free and can be downloaded here:
https://www.expresspcb.com
The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part.
Use teh schematic part: express.sch
After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE.
The only choice for saving is as a BMP file.
Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions of Windows.
Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173






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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:07 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the power and ground as close to the EIS as you can?
You gave 5A as the current draw for the e-bus, I doubt the EIS is drawing more than one. The cap will need to be large enough to make up the difference between the voltage required and where it drops to during the 15 seconds of cranking. Part of the caps electrons will back feed to the starter, but that path has the resistance of a lot of connections and thinner wires. Plus, it won't be a direct short to ground. It has to compete with another source pumping electrons into the circuit (the battery). The cap will get topped off as soon as you stop cranking.

Just make sure to use a slow blow fuse and be done with it.

On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:09 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Joe:
Thank you very much for the information.
I'll give it a try. I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am software challenged Wink
Barry
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
I used a program called Express.sch
It is free and can be downloaded here:
https://www.expresspcb.com
The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part.
Use teh schematic part: express.sch
After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE.
The only choice for saving is as a BMP file.
Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions of Windows.
Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/ viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173






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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

The little device by Eric Jones & Eric Page does this in an organized manner and with inexpensive parts.
No switching, no batteries.
Give it a try.
Jan de Jong

On 5/16/2018 8:05 PM, Ernest Christley wrote:

Quote:
What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the power and ground as close to the EIS as you can?


You gave 5A as the current draw for the e-bus, I doubt the EIS is drawing more than one.  The cap will need to be large enough to make up the difference between the voltage required and where it drops to during the 15 seconds of cranking.  Part of the caps electrons will back feed to the starter, but that path has the resistance of a lot of connections and thinner wires.  Plus, it won't be a direct short to ground.  It has to compete with another source pumping electrons into the circuit (the battery).  The cap will get topped off as soon as you stop cranking.



Just make sure to use a slow blow fuse and be done with it.



On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:09 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> (flyadive(at)gmail.com) wrote:



Joe:


Thank you very much for the information.


I'll give it a try.  I hope it is as intuitive as much as I am software challenged Wink


Barry






On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

Barry,
I used a program called Express.sch
It is free and can be downloaded here:
https://www.expresspcb.com
The program has two parts, the schematic part and the circuit board part.
Use teh schematic part: express.sch
After drawing your diagram, click FILE, EXPORT SCHEMATIC IMAGE.
The only choice for saving is as a BMP file.
Open the bmp file with "PAINT", a program that is built into all versions of Windows.
Crop the picture and then save as a JPG file.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/ viewtopic.php?p=480173#480173






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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Quote:
What would be wrong with throwing a big capacity directly across the power and ground as close to the EIS as you can?

That solution sounds reasonable in theory. The problem is that the starter motor would quickly drain the capacitor without a diode to block reverse current. Another problem is that one big capacitor rated at 15 volts or more would be impractically humongous. The solution is to use several capacitors, each rated at less voltage. Eric Jones & Eric Page have already done the engineering. Read this thread about the Deslumpifier:
http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477147&sid=96d0d83508c5b8d07bf0ea2643e41201


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

What Tim and others have suggested, TCWTech stuff, will fix it.  I used
the power stabilizer to fix this problem in my installation - I have (3)
EFIS units.
On 5/14/2018 10:13 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
Quote:


Check out TCWTechs stuff. They have both backup batteries, and
a power stabilizer that they offer that would do the trick.

http://www.tcwtech.com/
Tim
On 5/14/2018 7:38 PM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Sebastien,
>
> MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for
> isolating the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It
> supports a backup battery. Cost would be $450 + the battery.
>
> I am hoping for a less expensive solution.
>
>      -- Art Z.
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien <cluros(at)gmail.com
> <mailto:cluros(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine
>     monitor?
>
>     On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name
>     <mailto:art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:
>
>         ​​
>         Folks,
>
>         I am /finally/ to the point on my project of starting the
>         engine. When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low
>         that my EFIS reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1
>         second later, but it takes several seconds for the engine
>         instruments to come back online.
>
>         It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is
>         drawing about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need
>         about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting.
>
>         I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced
>         the ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the
>         switches a bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/12DhiCdTSuUNvlsmBK027yQ1mDDy5eRUl/view?usp=sharing>
>
>         What would be the simplest way to fix this issue?
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/
999

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

The 2 attached (pilfered) figures aim to show when the EFIS reboot
occurs in the engine start sequence.
The deep voltage drawdown where the EFIS reboots is resolved as soon as
the starter motor picks up speed.
The "deslumping" only needs to hold up the voltage for a few hundred ms.

Jan de Jong


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:23 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at the figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration.
Best...Bob Verwey

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[img]https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B5d7rgAInTuTUUZsUjY4QmJsdVU&revid=0B5d7rgAInTuTdDJDaXRFZVh3b3lMa3FWL0s3MFdzc01YRlNvPQ[/img]



On 17 May 2018 at 09:59, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:
Quote:
The 2 attached (pilfered) figures aim to show when the EFIS reboot occurs in the engine start sequence.
The deep voltage drawdown where the EFIS reboots is resolved as soon as the starter motor picks up speed.
The "deslumping" only needs to hold up the voltage for a few hundred ms.

Jan de Jong


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

It is a race with the relay and solenoid that enables the starter motor. A small relay will win I would think.
But I would prefer the "deslumpifier" of Eric Jones that Eric Page elaborated. No moving parts, no active electronics, no batteries.

Jan de Jong

On 5/17/2018 10:21 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:

Quote:
Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at the figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration.






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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Hi Jan,  Which eric jones product are you talking about?  I've been all over his site http://www.periheliondesign.com/ and can't find anything.  I just bought 4 a123 18650 lifepo4 batteries and a battery holder I plan to wire into my EIS and EFIS, but if there is a more elegant solution from Eric I'm interested.Mickey Coggins

On Thu, 17 May 2018 at 11:20, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl (jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl)> wrote:

Quote:
It is a race with the relay and solenoid that enables the starter motor. A small relay will win I would think.
But I would prefer the "deslumpifier" of Eric Jones that Eric Page elaborated. No moving parts, no active electronics, no batteries.

Jan de Jong

On 5/17/2018 10:21 AM, Bob Verwey wrote:

Quote:
Jan so would a relay then be fast enough to catch the lump? Looking at the figures it would appear that the big spike is of very short duration.








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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Reply with quote

Even though Eric Jones designed and built a prototype, he does not sell the deslumpifier. Last I heard, he does not intend to either. Maybe he would if the demand was big enough. Eric Page built a few that had more capacitance. He sold them to AeroElectric members at cost for the parts. That was really nice of him and he did a professional job. He probably has the schematic and parts list and gerber files that are necessary to order the PC boards. With that information, a person could order the parts and make their own deslumpifier.

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