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IO-540 hot starts

 
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dan(at)syz.com
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Hi everyone.

I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.

My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.

For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.

For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking. After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward. Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.

There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1548
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Dan,
It took me awhile to develop a reliable cold and hot start technique.
This after flying a 200 hp Mooney with the exact same mechanical fuel
pump and same Bendix/Precision RSA fuel injection.
What I found is that the RV fuel system has one significant issue that
my Mooney did not. That is the rise in the fuel lines to the fuel
selector. The boost off, mixture idle cutoff until cranked a few turns
worked on that engine.
When I first started flying the RV I had problems with the engine
starting and quitting, whether cold or hot. What I found was that if I
turned on the boost pump just before cranking, the problem of the engine
quitting went away. For hot, I would bring in the mixture immediately,
as I cranked, before the engine fired. I use about 1/4" of throttle for
both hot and cold. (about what gives 1000 rpm fast idle) For cold I go
full rich just before cranking. Never see more than 1200 rpm on either
hot or cold start. I rarely have the engine quit after start as long as
the boost pump is on until engine is running smoothly.
I urge you to cease using any flooded start technique. Very hard on your
cylinders and cam. First you get raw fuel in the cylinders that washes
off any oil film. Then you get high rpm before any oil has splashed on
the cam.
One other tidbit. Consider the IO540 to be a hot start any time the
crankcase inside the air inlets feels above ambient temperature.
Kelly
140+ hrs since first flight.

On 5/15/2018 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:

I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2"

throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it
doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't
understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm
the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure
really be just that simple?
Quote:

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois


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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD
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maca2790



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:44 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Hi Dan,
I have the Precision Air Motive Fuel Servo on my stock IO-540 D4A5 with Slick Magnetos and the Slick Start Module.
Cold Starts pretty much the same as you describe except that I only use a 1/4 inch of throttle.

If the plane has been sitting for only a short time on a hot day:-

Mixture at Cut Off
Throttle about ½ inch.
Crank and when it fires Mixture to full rich.
After it stabilises, set RPM to 950 or 1000 and then lean for best idle.

If the plane has been sitting for a long time on a hot day say an (hour or more.)

Same setup up as above except :-

While cranking if it doesn’t fire within about 10 to 12 seconds.
Stop cranking.

Then
Mixture to Rich.
Boost pump on until it shows some flow, (maybe 3 or 4 seconds)
Mixture back to Cut off and boost pump off.
Then repeat the hot start procedure :-

Mixture at Cut off
Throttle ¼ to ½ inch.
Crank
When it fires, Mixture to rich
Set the RPM and then lean.

On the odd occasions on very Hot days I have needed to turn the boost pump on once it’s running because it wants to die
due to vapour in the lines.

Cheers

John MacCallum
VH-DUU
RV10 #41016



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Dan Charrois (dan(at)syz.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 9:21 AM
To: RV10-List Digest Server (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: IO-540 hot starts


--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>

Hi everyone.

I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.

My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with.  Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.

For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start.  As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so.  Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.

For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking.  After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time.  But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward.  Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.

There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile  I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.  I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic.  Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213
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maca2790



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Hi Kelly,
I reckon your right with turning the boost pump on.
Especially on Hot Days when there is vapour in the system.

I will modify my Hot start procedure to:-

Throttle ¼ inch
Mixture Cut off
Boost pump on
Crank
When it fires, Mixture to Rich
Then set RPM and lean for best idle.

If it doesn’t fire then try again after purging the lines with about
4 or 5 seconds of flow and the Mixture rich.
Then repeat your procedure.

Cheers,

John MacCallum
VH-DUU



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kelly McMullen (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:29 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: IO-540 hot starts


--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com>

Dan,
It took me awhile to develop a reliable cold and hot start technique.
This after flying a 200 hp Mooney with the exact same mechanical fuel
pump and same Bendix/Precision RSA fuel injection.
What I found is that the RV fuel system has one significant issue that
my Mooney did not. That is the rise in the fuel lines to the fuel
selector. The boost off, mixture idle cutoff until cranked a few turns
worked on that engine.
When I first started flying the RV I had problems with the engine
starting and quitting, whether cold or hot. What I found was that if I
turned on the boost pump just before cranking, the problem of the engine
quitting went away. For hot, I would bring in the mixture immediately,
as I cranked, before the engine fired. I use about 1/4" of throttle for
both hot and cold. (about what gives 1000 rpm fast idle) For cold I go
full rich just before cranking. Never see more than 1200 rpm on either
hot or cold start. I rarely have the engine quit after start as long as
the boost pump is on until engine is running smoothly.
I urge you to cease using any flooded start technique. Very hard on your
cylinders and cam. First you get raw fuel in the cylinders that washes
off any oil film. Then you get high rpm before any oil has splashed on
the cam.
One other tidbit. Consider the IO540 to be a hot start any time the
crankcase inside the air inlets feels above ambient temperature.
Kelly
140+ hrs since first flight.

On 5/15/2018 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com>
   I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2"

throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it
doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.  I don't
understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm
the furthest thing from an engine mechanic.  Could a hot start procedure
really be just that simple?
Quote:

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
&n=======================

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Dave Saylor



Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 126
Location: GILROY, CA

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:

Throttle and mixture full forward
Boost pump on for a good squirt.  On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly.  That takes 5-6 seconds.
Throttle barely open.  On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
Mixture lean
Crank until it starts to sputter
Mixture gently forward
Mag switches depend on the airframe.
This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.
If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself to the required starting mixture as you crank.  I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of the spider.  Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully they have some degree of insulation against heat.
If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are fine after 1800 hours.
This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
Your starter may have a time limit.  Stick to that.  Mine is 10 seconds, then it has to cool for 20 seconds.
I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture.  So of course the battery has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit.  10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts in 2-3 seconds.  But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel, I have pretty good luck.
If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related.  Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
--Dave
On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)>

Hi everyone.

I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.

My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with.  Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.

For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start.  As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so.  Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.

For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking.  After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time.  But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward.  Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.

There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile  I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.  I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic.  Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1124
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:15 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Boost pump does not remove any vapor in the lines, because the Bendix/Precision injection system is closed, with no return lines.
What the boost pump does is eliminate the mechanical pump trying to suck fuel from the tanks, which may in itself create vapor.
Probably will vary as to when mixture needs to go rich, depending on engine temp, OAT, etc. Not sure why the SlickStart is not doing a better
job of getting the engine started.
Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 5:56 PM, John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Hi Kelly,
I reckon your right with turning the boost pump on.
Especially on Hot Days when there is vapour in the system.
 
I will modify my Hot start procedure to:-
 
Throttle ¼ inch
Mixture Cut off
Boost pump on
Crank
When it fires, Mixture to Rich
Then set RPM and lean for best idle.
 
If it doesn’t fire then try again after purging the lines with about
4 or 5 seconds of flow and the Mixture rich.
Then repeat your procedure.
 
Cheers,
 
John MacCallum
VH-DUU
 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Kelly McMullen (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:29 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: IO-540 hot starts

 
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>
 
Dan,
It took me awhile to develop a reliable cold and hot start technique.
This after flying a 200 hp Mooney with the exact same mechanical fuel
pump and same Bendix/Precision RSA fuel injection.
What I found is that the RV fuel system has one significant issue that
my Mooney did not. That is the rise in the fuel lines to the fuel
selector. The boost off, mixture idle cutoff until cranked a few turns
worked on that engine.
When I first started flying the RV I had problems with the engine
starting and quitting, whether cold or hot. What I found was that if I
turned on the boost pump just before cranking, the problem of the engine
quitting went away. For hot, I would bring in the mixture immediately,
as I cranked, before the engine fired. I use about 1/4" of throttle for
both hot and cold. (about what gives 1000 rpm fast idle) For cold I go
full rich just before cranking. Never see more than 1200 rpm on either
hot or cold start. I rarely have the engine quit after start as long as
the boost pump is on until engine is running smoothly.
I urge you to cease using any flooded start technique. Very hard on your
cylinders and cam. First you get raw fuel in the cylinders that washes
off any oil film. Then you get high rpm before any oil has splashed on
the cam.
One other tidbit. Consider the IO540 to be a hot start any time the
crankcase inside the air inlets feels above ambient temperature.
Kelly
140+ hrs since first flight.
 
On 5/15/2018 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)>
   I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2"

throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it
doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.  I don't
understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm
the furthest thing from an engine mechanic.  Could a hot start procedure
really be just that simple?
Quote:

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
&n=====================ch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,



 
 
 
 



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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD
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View user's profile Send private message
Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1124
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

It may work for you. However, manuals for Lycoming and TCM engines call for entirely different technique for hot starts.
TCM injection has a fuel return circuit. It is used to purge any vapor and cool the fuel lines. In other words 8-10 seconds of fuel boost on with mixture at idle cutoff to clear the vapor and gives you cooler fuel from the tanks in the servo and spider line.
In neither brand engine do you want a lot of fuel before cranking. No fuel pump and rich mixture together before cranking.

Lycoming/Bendix injection has no return line and the only place you can send vapor is into the engine, creating a rich condition.

Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:06 PM, David Saylor <saylor.dave(at)gmail.com (saylor.dave(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:

Throttle and mixture full forward
Boost pump on for a good squirt.  On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly.  That takes 5-6 seconds.
Throttle barely open.  On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
Mixture lean
Crank until it starts to sputter
Mixture gently forward
Mag switches depend on the airframe.
This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.

Quote:





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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maca2790



Joined: 26 Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Yes the Fuel Vaporises out of the Injector lines when it’s hot and been sitting for a while and the Boost Pump just helps push the Fuel through quicker. As for the Slick Start I just think it’s a fuel starvation thing. Just as long as you don’t run the pump with the mixture
full rich for a long period like during a cold start. If you that it is then way too rich for a hot start  and there is a possibility of fuel sitting in the Air Cleaner box on a bottom induction system like an RV10 has. If you do have fuel sitting there and you get a back fire through the Induction system you will have a nice little fire to contend with! Keep Cranking as it says in the Checklist! lol

Cheers

John MacCallum
VH-DUU

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kelly McMullen (apilot2(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 1:12 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: IO-540 hot starts


Boost pump does not remove any vapor in the lines, because the Bendix/Precision injection system is closed, with no return lines.

What the boost pump does is eliminate the mechanical pump trying to suck fuel from the tanks, which may in itself create vapor.

Probably will vary as to when mixture needs to go rich, depending on engine temp, OAT, etc. Not sure why the SlickStart is not doing a better

job of getting the engine started.
Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame



On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 5:56 PM, John MacCallum <john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com (john.maccallum(at)bigpond.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Hi Kelly,
I reckon your right with turning the boost pump on.
Especially on Hot Days when there is vapour in the system.

I will modify my Hot start procedure to:-

Throttle ¼ inch
Mixture Cut off
Boost pump on
Crank
When it fires, Mixture to Rich
Then set RPM and lean for best idle.

If it doesn’t fire then try again after purging the lines with about
4 or 5 seconds of flow and the Mixture rich.
Then repeat your procedure.

Cheers,

John MacCallum
VH-DUU



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kelly McMullen (kellym(at)aviating.com)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:29 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: IO-540 hot starts


--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

Dan,
It took me awhile to develop a reliable cold and hot start technique.
This after flying a 200 hp Mooney with the exact same mechanical fuel
pump and same Bendix/Precision RSA fuel injection.
What I found is that the RV fuel system has one significant issue that
my Mooney did not. That is the rise in the fuel lines to the fuel
selector. The boost off, mixture idle cutoff until cranked a few turns
worked on that engine.
When I first started flying the RV I had problems with the engine
starting and quitting, whether cold or hot. What I found was that if I
turned on the boost pump just before cranking, the problem of the engine
quitting went away. For hot, I would bring in the mixture immediately,
as I cranked, before the engine fired. I use about 1/4" of throttle for
both hot and cold. (about what gives 1000 rpm fast idle) For cold I go
full rich just before cranking. Never see more than 1200 rpm on either
hot or cold start. I rarely have the engine quit after start as long as
the boost pump is on until engine is running smoothly.
I urge you to cease using any flooded start technique. Very hard on your
cylinders and cam. First you get raw fuel in the cylinders that washes
off any oil film. Then you get high rpm before any oil has splashed on
the cam.
One other tidbit. Consider the IO540 to be a hot start any time the
crankcase inside the air inlets feels above ambient temperature.
Kelly
140+ hrs since first flight.

On 5/15/2018 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)>
I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2"

throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it
doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't
understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the
boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm
the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure
really be just that simple?
Quote:

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
&n=====================ch & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,








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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
  • Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after start)
  • Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly - 5-6 seconds, then pull them back.  A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the short side for warm wx.
  • Then exactly what Dave does:
    • Throttle barely open.  On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
    • Mixture lean
    • Crank until it starts to sputter
    • Mixture gently forward
  • For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
    • Throttle barely open.  On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
    • Mixture lean
    • Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
    • Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds but works the same way)
    • If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give a 2-3 second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before cranking again.
No problems once I started using this procedure.

On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:

Quote:
I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:

Throttle and mixture full forward
Boost pump on for a good squirt.  On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly.  That takes 5-6 seconds.
Throttle barely open.  On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
Mixture lean
Crank until it starts to sputter
Mixture gently forward


Mag switches depend on the airframe.


This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.


If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.


As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself to the required starting mixture as you crank.  I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".


A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of the spider.  Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully they have some degree of insulation against heat.


If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are fine after 1800 hours.


This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.


Your starter may have a time limit.  Stick to that.  Mine is 10 seconds, then it has to cool for 20 seconds.


I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture.  So of course the battery has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit.  10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts in 2-3 seconds.  But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel, I have pretty good luck.


If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.


I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related.  Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.


--Dave






On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com (dan(at)syz.com)>

Hi everyone.

I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.

My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with.  Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.

For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start.  As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so.  Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.

For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking.  After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time.  But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward.  Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.

There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile  I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does.  I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic.  Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?

So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.

Thanks!

Dan
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone, for your tips and tricks to hot starting an IO-540. I've now got a few more techniques up my sleeve to try - though the flooded procedure I'd been using has worked, I certainly don't like it and am anxious to see how well these other techniques fair.

Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but a few people responded with a process similar to the hot start procedure below and I can't quite figure out how it would work. If there is no boost pump to pressurize the lines while the mixture is forward at least a little for a short bit of time, how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders? Or by mixture lean, is the idea to have it lean-ish, but not at full idle cut off? Because if the mixture is at full idle cut off throughout the whole hot start procedure until the engine starts to sputter, I can't see how fuel would get to the cylinders at all to get it to start to sputter in the first place. If the intent is to lean but not full cut off, approximately how lean are people using?

In any case, next time I go flying, I'm going to try a few of these techniques and see how they go. Thanks again, everyone!

Dan

Quote:
On 2018-May-16, at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:

I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
• Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after start)
• Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly - 5-6 seconds, then pull them back. A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the short side for warm wx.
• Then exactly what Dave does:
• Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
• Mixture lean
• Crank until it starts to sputter
• Mixture gently forward
• For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
• Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
• Mixture lean
• Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
• Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds but works the same way)
• If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give a 2-3 second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before cranking again.
No problems once I started using this procedure.

On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:
> I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:
>
> Throttle and mixture full forward
> Boost pump on for a good squirt. On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly. That takes 5-6 seconds.
> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
> Mixture lean
> Crank until it starts to sputter
> Mixture gently forward
>
> Mag switches depend on the airframe.
>
> This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.
>
> If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
>
> As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself to the required starting mixture as you crank. I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
>
> A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of the spider. Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully they have some degree of insulation against heat.
>
> If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are fine after 1800 hours.
>
> This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
>
> Your starter may have a time limit. Stick to that. Mine is 10 seconds, then it has to cool for 20 seconds.
>
> I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture. So of course the battery has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit. 10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts in 2-3 seconds. But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel, I have pretty good luck.
>
> If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
>
> I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related. Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
>
> --Dave
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.
>
> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
>
> For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.
>
> For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking. After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward. Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.
>
> There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dan
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
> ====================================
> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
> ====================================
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ====================================
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ====================================
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ====================================
>
>
>
>




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President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:18 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff.  I don't know the answer to how the
line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or
boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before
feeding it some cool fuel.

And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff.  I stop
cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything 
closed, turn it off, and do it again.  It always works for me whether
returning to the field and gassing  up before returning to the hangar,
or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.

I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start.  For my
cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I
set the mixture of a lean taxi.  Starts as smoothly as can be.  For a
hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like
you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?".  But also
have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye
fuel farm.

Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm
doing" Watson

On 5/17/2018 1:13 AM, Dan Charrois wrote:
Quote:


Thanks, everyone, for your tips and tricks to hot starting an IO-540. I've now got a few more techniques up my sleeve to try - though the flooded procedure I'd been using has worked, I certainly don't like it and am anxious to see how well these other techniques fair.

Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but a few people responded with a process similar to the hot start procedure below and I can't quite figure out how it would work. If there is no boost pump to pressurize the lines while the mixture is forward at least a little for a short bit of time, how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders? Or by mixture lean, is the idea to have it lean-ish, but not at full idle cut off? Because if the mixture is at full idle cut off throughout the whole hot start procedure until the engine starts to sputter, I can't see how fuel would get to the cylinders at all to get it to start to sputter in the first place. If the intent is to lean but not full cut off, approximately how lean are people using?

In any case, next time I go flying, I'm going to try a few of these techniques and see how they go. Thanks again, everyone!

Dan

> On 2018-May-16, at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
> • Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after start)
> • Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly - 5-6 seconds, then pull them back. A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the short side for warm wx.
> • Then exactly what Dave does:
> • Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
> • Mixture lean
> • Crank until it starts to sputter
> • Mixture gently forward
> • For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
> • Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
> • Mixture lean
> • Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
> • Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds but works the same way)
> • If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give a 2-3 second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before cranking again.
> No problems once I started using this procedure.
>
> On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:
>> I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:
>>
>> Throttle and mixture full forward
>> Boost pump on for a good squirt. On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly. That takes 5-6 seconds.
>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>> Mixture lean
>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>> Mixture gently forward
>>
>> Mag switches depend on the airframe.
>>
>> This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.
>>
>> If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
>>
>> As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself to the required starting mixture as you crank. I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
>>
>> A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of the spider. Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully they have some degree of insulation against heat.
>>
>> If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are fine after 1800 hours.
>>
>> This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
>>
>> Your starter may have a time limit. Stick to that. Mine is 10 seconds, then it has to cool for 20 seconds.
>>
>> I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture. So of course the battery has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit. 10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts in 2-3 seconds. But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel, I have pretty good luck.
>>
>> If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
>>
>> I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related. Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
>>
>> --Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.
>>
>> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
>>
>> For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.
>>
>> For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking. After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward. Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.
>>
>> There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Dan
>> ---
>> Dan Charrois
>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>
>>
>> ====================================
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
>> ====================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ====================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ====================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ====================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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> www.avast.com
---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


---
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dmasys



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

Quote:
On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com> wrote:


Quote:
I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly
hot starts.

My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection
system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos
(again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.

One thing to be sure to do is to check that your SlickSTART is correctly wired and producing its sustained spark beginning at TDC. Like timing the engine, pull one plug from each cylinder. Attach lead to #1 cylinder, set to some few degrees before TDC, turn on the ignition, and pull the prop slowly through TDC. If the SlickSTART is functioning correctly you will see a series of bright sparks beginning at TDC. The SlickSTART wiring diagram is a bit ambiguous and it is easy to get wrong (ask me how I know Wink ).

But to totally solve the hot start problem on my factory configuration IO-540 I replaced the right mag with a SureFly electronic ignition and took the jumper off the starter switch that grounds the right mag at startup. So both SureFly and SlickStart fire at TDC on startup. Works like a charm, cold or hot.

-Dan Masys
RV-10 N104LD 1100 hrs.


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Kellym



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1548
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:13 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the
engine has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors
at around 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel
system except the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly
full of fuel. So there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run
for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the
mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater
that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The flow divider
needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the
injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture
in each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot,
between the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the
intake manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent
mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and
fire or it may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak
spark that a magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions
or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark
of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures
that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's
Slick Start is functioning correctly.
Kelly

On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:


In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff.  I don't know the answer to how the
line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or
boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before
feeding it some cool fuel.

And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff.  I stop
cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything
closed, turn it off, and do it again.  It always works for me whether
returning to the field and gassing  up before returning to the hangar,
or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.

I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start.  For my
cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I
set the mixture of a lean taxi.  Starts as smoothly as can be.  For a
hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like
you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?".  But also
have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye
fuel farm.

Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm
doing" Watson


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Tim Olson



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2763

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

I think it’s because when you shut down the fuel boils out of the injector lines and the fumes and fuel stay at a somewhat high level In the cylinder for a long period of time. So it fires even without priming. It will run tough until new fuel enters the lines though.
Tim

Quote:
On May 17, 2018, at 5:15 AM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:



In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some cool fuel.

And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything closed, turn it off, and do it again. It always works for me whether returning to the field and gassing up before returning to the hangar, or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.

I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I set the mixture of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?". But also have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye fuel farm.

Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm doing" Watson

> On 5/17/2018 1:13 AM, Dan Charrois wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, everyone, for your tips and tricks to hot starting an IO-540. I've now got a few more techniques up my sleeve to try - though the flooded procedure I'd been using has worked, I certainly don't like it and am anxious to see how well these other techniques fair.
>
> Admittedly, I haven't tried it yet, but a few people responded with a process similar to the hot start procedure below and I can't quite figure out how it would work. If there is no boost pump to pressurize the lines while the mixture is forward at least a little for a short bit of time, how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders? Or by mixture lean, is the idea to have it lean-ish, but not at full idle cut off? Because if the mixture is at full idle cut off throughout the whole hot start procedure until the engine starts to sputter, I can't see how fuel would get to the cylinders at all to get it to start to sputter in the first place. If the intent is to lean but not full cut off, approximately how lean are people using?
>
> In any case, next time I go flying, I'm going to try a few of these techniques and see how they go. Thanks again, everyone!
>
> Dan
>
>> On 2018-May-16, at 5:41 PM, Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> I do cold starts on my stock Lyc like this - works without fail:
>> • Throttle and Mixture full back, Boost Pump on (it stays on until after start)
>> • Throttle and Mixture full forward until pressure stops rising quickly - 5-6 seconds, then pull them back. A bit on the long side for cold wx, on the short side for warm wx.
>> • Then exactly what Dave does:
>> • Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>> • Mixture lean
>> • Crank until it starts to sputter
>> • Mixture gently forward
>> • For hot starts I follow the same procedure but don't use the boost pump:
>> • Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>> • Mixture lean
>> • Crank until it starts to sputter (on hot starts it really sputters)
>> • Mixture gently forward (some cylinders will misfire for 5-6 seconds but works the same way)
>> • If I do the hot start thing and it doesn't sputter an fire, I give a 2-3 second shot of Boost pump but don't open the throttle or mixture, before cranking again.
>> No problems once I started using this procedure.
>>
>>> On 5/15/2018 9:06 PM, David Saylor wrote:
>>> I do fuel injected hot and cold starts, Lyc and Continental, all the same way:
>>>
>>> Throttle and mixture full forward
>>> Boost pump on for a good squirt. On my plane, I let the fuel pressure build until it stops rising quickly. That takes 5-6 seconds.
>>> Throttle barely open. On my quadrant, 1/8-1/4 inch off the idle stop
>>> Mixture lean
>>> Crank until it starts to sputter
>>> Mixture gently forward
>>>
>>> Mag switches depend on the airframe.
>>>
>>> This technique gives me start-to-idle RPM right away without the high RPM surge you hear around the ramp.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't start right away there are often other issues.
>>>
>>> As you suggested, the idea is to create a rich mixture, which leans itself to the required starting mixture as you crank. I'm not sure I'd call it "flooded".
>>>
>>> A healthy priming shot gets cool, liquid fuel into the system downstream of the spider. Up to that point all my FWF fuel lines are fire sleeved, so hopefully they have some degree of insulation against heat.
>>>
>>> If you're worried about degreasing your cylinder walls, I can say mine are fine after 1800 hours.
>>>
>>> This has worked well for me on RVs, Cessnas, Bonanzas, Pipers, etc.
>>>
>>> Your starter may have a time limit. Stick to that. Mine is 10 seconds, then it has to cool for 20 seconds.
>>>
>>> I find that a lot of times some batteries can't crank long enough to clear out the excess fuel and get to the correct mixture. So of course the battery has to be in good shape, strong enough to crank to your starter time limit. 10 seconds, in my case, seems like a LONG time, especially when it usually starts in 2-3 seconds. But if I hang in there and let it crank away the excess fuel, I have pretty good luck.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't start, I usually start over from scratch.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of starting problems are timing related and battery related. Make sure those things are right and the starting gets a lot easier.
>>>
>>> --Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:21 PM, Dan Charrois <dan(at)syz.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what procedures people are using for starting their IO-540s, particularly hot starts.
>>>
>>> My setup is pretty much stock - no fuel return line, using the AVStar fuel injection system my factory Lycoming through Vans came with. Normal Slick magnetos (again, stock with the engine), with the SlickSTART module.
>>>
>>> For normal cold starts, what seems to work reliably for me is throttle open 1/2", boost pump on, mixture rich for a few seconds (until pressure stabilizes), then mixture ICO, boost pump off, and then start. As soon as the engine starts, I go full rich to ensure it keeps going and then usually right away after, pull the mixture back an inch or so. Pretty uneventful and usually works without muss or fuss.
>>>
>>> For hot starts (which in my plane seem to be necessary even if the engine's been off for nearly an hour), based on another discussion I read awhile ago, I have been doing a flooded procedure: throttle full forward, boost pump on, mixture rich for about 2 seconds then ICO, leave the boost pump on, and start cranking. After the engine starts (usually within 3 or 4 seconds), somehow get the mixture forward and throttle back at the same time. But since I'm not one of those with three hands, usually the engine surges to relatively high rpm before I can get the throttle back (I'd tried getting the throttle back first, but in so doing usually the engine quits before I can get the mixture forward. Getting the mixture forward right away after the engine fires usually means the engine keeps running, though I'm sure it's hard on the engine with not being able to get the throttle back right away.
>>>
>>> There's got to be a better way so hot starts can be reliable while keeping initial RPM low, to reduce wear and stress on the engine and prop, not to mention to just come off more professional Smile I saw one discussion awhile ago where a poster suggested 1/2" throttle, no boost pump at all, mixture ICO, crank and then if it doesn't fire, to slowly bring mixture forward until it does. I don't understand how it could fire at all while the mixture is at ICO if the boost pump hasn't pressurized fuel in the lines beforehand, but then I'm the furthest thing from an engine mechanic. Could a hot start procedure really be just that simple?
>>>
>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has advice on what they do, in a stock Lycoming system with regular Slick mags and no fuel return line.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> ---
>>> Dan Charrois
>>> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
>>> Phone: 780-961-2213
>>>
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>
> ---
> Dan Charrois
> President, Syzygy Research & Technology
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
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Kelly McMullen



Joined: 16 Apr 2008
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Location: Sun Lakes AZ

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

I meant to explain, and forgot, that the flow divider valve is there to stop fuel flow to the injectors when you go to idle cutoff, so that there is little fuel in the injector lines when the engine is shut down. It has the side effect of keeping enough fuel in the fuel servo and line to the flow divider to initially fire the engine, once enough pressure is introduced at the fuel servo and the mixture is moved off cut-off.  The firing that may occur with the engine at cut-off is from residual fuel in the intake manifold and/or priming. It takes only a few revolutions for the engine to purge that fuel if the mixture is left at idle cut-off.
Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engine has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The flow divider needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and fire or it may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak spark that a magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's Slick Start is functioning correctly.
Kelly

On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff.  I don't know the answer to how the line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some cool fuel.
 
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amekler



Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

My hot start techniqueMixture idle cut off
Boost off
Throttle 1/4 inch
As engine fires I rapidly increase the mixture
If you wait too long to increase the mixture the engine quits and then I have to reprime
Alan

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2018, at 9:28 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
I meant to explain, and forgot, that the flow divider valve is there to stop fuel flow to the injectors when you go to idle cutoff, so that there is little fuel in the injector lines when the engine is shut down. It has the side effect of keeping enough fuel in the fuel servo and line to the flow divider to initially fire the engine, once enough pressure is introduced at the fuel servo and the mixture is moved off cut-off. The firing that may occur with the engine at cut-off is from residual fuel in the intake manifold and/or priming. It takes only a few revolutions for the engine to purge that fuel if the mixture is left at idle cut-off.
Quote:
Sent from my IBM-360 main frame


On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 6:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engine has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The flow divider needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and fire or it may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak spark that a magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's Slick Start is functioning correctly.
Kelly

On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)>

In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some cool fuel.

=============================











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dan(at)syz.com
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: IO-540 hot starts Reply with quote

I didn't realize that the flow divider had a fuel cutoff valve and there was still some fuel in the lines after shutting down the engine by bringing the mixture to idle cutoff. I'll definitely be modifying my hot start technique next time I go flying to the suggestions here and see how it goes.

Back when I installed the Slick Start, I did test and it seemed to be working OK, but that was a while ago and things may have changed. I'm only a few hours away from doing my next 50 hour inspection - I'll add checking the Slick Start to my list of things to look at.

Thanks again, everyone!

Dan

Quote:
On 2018-May-17, at 7:10 AM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:



What many fail to appreciate is that the flow divider on top of the engine has a fuel cutoff valve, which stops fuel flow to the injectors at around 4-5psi. So whether it is hot or cold start all of the fuel system except the injector lines from the flow divider is still mostly full of fuel. So there is plenty of fuel for the engine to start and run for maybe 5-10 seconds. Whether it continues to run depends on the mechanical and boost pump delivering the 3-4 gph at 15 psi or greater that the engine requires at low power to keep running. The flow divider needs a consistent fuel pressure above 5 psi to deliver fuel to the injectors and have them atomize that fuel.
As for the initial ignition, the engine requires a fairly rich mixture in each cylinder to fire enough cylinders to get a start. When hot, between the fuel that may remain in the injector lines boiling into the intake manifold and other factors you probably do not have a consistent mixture for the first 3-4 revolutions of the engine. It may be good and fire or it may not. Complicating all of the above is the relatively weak spark that a magneto delivers at cranking speeds. Electronic ignitions or the Slick Start booster solve that issue by delivering a strong spark of longer duration during cranking. A strong spark will fire mixtures that are not ideal. Which is why Dan M and I question whether Dan C's Slick Start is functioning correctly.
Kelly

On 5/17/2018 3:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote:
>
> In my case 'lean' means idle cutoff. I don't know the answer to how the line is pressurized but on a hotstart there seems to be enough vapor or boiling fuel downstream of the pump to get the thing to sputter before feeding it some cool fuel.
> And if it doesn't sputter with the mixture in idle cutoff. I stop cranking, turn on the fuel pump for 2-3-4-5 seconds with everything closed, turn it off, and do it again. It always works for me whether returning to the field and gassing up before returning to the hangar, or when taxiing from the hangar for fuel before departure.
> I can't imaging feeding it full fuel for a cold or hot start. For my cold start I very smoothly feed it fuel to just past the point where I set the mixture of a lean taxi. Starts as smoothly as can be. For a hot start I have to be a bit more aggressive with the fuel because like you said, "how would any fuel at all get to the cylinders?". But also have to be ready to pull it back quick when it catches or its goodbye fuel farm.
> Bill "my first fuel injected engine so I don't have clue as to what I'm doing" Watson

---
Dan Charrois
President, Syzygy Research & Technology
Phone: 780-961-2213


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