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Defend Your Turf

 
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Kolburner



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Hi Kolb folks,
I may buy a Kolb. I like a whole lot of things about them. Too many to list here right now. But....I operate out of a 1,000 foot long dirt strip at an elevation of 3,800 feet, no obstacles. Now, even 1,000 feet shouldn't be too short for an airplane that only weighs 400 pounds and stalls at 27 mph. And yet, pretty much everyone, and I mean everyone I see in videos, lands these airplanes with at least an '80% above stall speed' cushion, watching hundreds of feet of runway disappear behind them. I've read about the 'Kolb quit', which seems to me to be a "whoops, I stalled" kinda thing, and of course we don't want that too high above the ground. But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter) demonstrations are not even remotely respectable. Can't a Kolb with a competent pilot be put down in a real short distance? Sure they can. But I'm not seeing it. Please straighten me out here. Thx


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:06 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

There are many videos on YouTube of super short field landings. I have landed at the airport in Big Bear, California, the elevation there is 6800 msl. Landing was a no brainer. The takeoff was the longest takeoff roll I’ve ever made in a Kolb. But, that was in a single carb, MKII with a passenger on board. I personally think it wouldn’t be a big deal landing or taking off with a Kolb Firestar II or Firefly at your strip. Density altitude would have to be considered on warmer or humid days. Just my opinion. George
George H.
Firestar,FS100,2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 10, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Kolburner <clayton991(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



Hi Kolb folks,
I may buy a Kolb. I like a whole lot of things about them. Too many to list here right now. But....I operate out of a 1,000 foot long dirt strip at an elevation of 3,800 feet, no obstacles. Now, even 1,000 feet shouldn't be too short for an airplane that only weighs 400 pounds and stalls at 27 mph. And yet, pretty much everyone, and I mean everyone I see in videos, lands these airplanes with at least an '80% above stall speed' cushion, watching hundreds of feet of runway disappear behind them. I've read about the 'Kolb quit', which seems to me to be a "whoops, I stalled" kinda thing, and of course we don't want that too high above the ground. But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter) demonstrations are not even remotely respectable. Can't a Kolb with a competent pilot be put down in a real short distance? Sure they can. But I'm not seeing it. Please straighten me out here. Thx




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Kolburner



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a.
I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples.
Does anyone have any links they could share?
Thx!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

What part of the country is home for you?
Quote:
On Sep 11, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Kolburner <clayton991(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a.
I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples.
Does anyone have any links they could share?
Thx!




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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483095#483095











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Kolburner



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

New Mexico.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

“Keep thy airspeed up lest ye mite the ground.” Quote from Homer Kolb’s Firestar Builders manual, 1985.
These little birds slow down quickly.
George H.
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14 GDH
Mesick, Michigan
Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Kolburner <clayton991(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



New Mexico.




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Personally I would do one or two things. With the aircraft completely assembled and fueled “ready to fly” and me in seat. I’d take 3 sets of scales and calculate a complete weight and balance. Have friend read the scales for you . Rotate the the scales and average for accuracy. Choose any datum point you like. Use a 30 tape measure and plum-Bob. Nose, Seat, leading edge, whatever. Be sure to elevate the tail to flight altitude. Don’t quote me but I believe it is around 9 degrees measured on the bottom of a inboard wing rib. I “believe”your c/g should far between 21 and 34 percent of the cord of the wing as measured from the leading edge. Again these figures are from memory and I’m old.
The second thing I’d probably do. Which is just me, so don’t jump all over me guys. Just go fly the thing and see how it feels for a few hours.
If it’s got 65 hours on it? It obvious can fly.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 11, 2018, at 9:27 AM, Kolburner <clayton991(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



Thank you George for replying. Helpful information. I've been into Big Bear with some much higher hp certified acft that didn't do any better than your Kolb. DA, of course, does play a role. Most of our low hp flying around here is done by 800a.
I've gotten a couple of other PMs from my post that have been helpful, too. I knew these super-light aircraft could perform in short field operations, I just haven't seen good examples.
Does anyone have any links they could share?
Thx!




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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

https://youtu.be/cNwCFaDGAWQ

https://youtu.be/bkBPrLUMYlM
These two might impress you? It all about airspeed and of course practice.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2018, at 10:02 AM, Kolburner <clayton991(at)earthlink.net (clayton991(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Kolburner" <clayton991(at)earthlink.net (clayton991(at)earthlink.net)>

New Mexico.


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Richard Pike



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1519
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

I havve been flying out of this grass strip since 1983. Google Earth says it is 850' long. Elevation is 1500' msl. The first video is a 1985 Firestar modified into a Firefly; weight 260 pounds, engine is a 26hp Rotax 277. Takeoff used about 350' because I always ease the power in, as it is easy to get it over on it's nose. (Guess how I know this?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

Landing the Firefly/Firestar in calm wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHziWQw3Qo

Takeoff with a passenger in the MKIII; calm wind, used about 350' of runway. Fast forward to 23 minutes to see the landing. Engine is a 65hp 582.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Rr8BF7EPY

Here is the MKIII solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eLElrMaTQ&t=9s

As you can see, I typically use about half the available runway length because my priority is being gentle to the landing gear. Takeoff is always on the slight downhill, landing is always on the slight uphill. You will notice that TVA has put a set of 300' tall towers/powerlines 500' off the SW end of the runway. Carrying a passenger in the summer, takeoff means turning to parallel them. In the winter I usually just climb and clear them unless it is a BIG passenger. Landing; the powerlines are not a problem summer or winter.

Hope this gives you an idea of what is typical runway distance used by a Kolb.
Thinking about why a lot of us use a higher approach speed than we really need to - These things will slow down really quickly when you pull the engine back to idle, so once you get it close to the ground, the airspeed bleeds off really fast.
The other thing is that on a MKIII for instance; when you add a passenger, all of their weight is ahead of the CG. Just for the heck of it I tried shooting an approach once at 45 mph with a 185 pound passenger. Calm wind, no problem, but no flare either. I landed at the same attitude I made the approach at. At 60 mph that situation does not occur.
Then I gap sealed the horizontal stab to the elevator and added VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab. Which helped, but I still shoot my approaches with a passenger at 60. Because really good control authority is better than merely sufficient control authority.


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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.


Last edited by Richard Pike on Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kolburner



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Yes. That's what I'm talking about. Great vids. Good looking airplane making good looking landings that definitely fit my needs.
Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Nice video Richard!

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Sep 11, 2018, at 5:00 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net> wrote:



I havve been flying out of this grass strip since 1983. Google Earth says it is 850' long. Elevation is 1500' msl. The first video is a 1985 Firestar modified into a Firefly; weight 260 pounds, engine is a 26hp Rotax 277. Takeoff used about 350' because I always ease the power in, as it is easy to get it over on it's nose. (Guess how I know this?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAcfoOJJDpg

Landing the Firefly/Firestar in calm wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulIJ_WHLMfY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUHziWQw3Qo

Takeoff with a passenger in the MKIII; calm wind, used about 350' of runway. Fast forward to 23 minutes to see the landing. Engine is a 65hp 582.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7Rr8BF7EPY

Here is the MKIII solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9eLElrMaTQ&t=9s

As you can see, I typically use about half the available runway length because my priority is being gentle to the landing gear. Takeoff is always on the slight downhill, landing is always on the slight uphill. You will notice that TVA has put a set of 300' tall towers/powerlines 500' off the SW end of the runway. Carrying a passenger in the summer, takeoff means turning to parallel them. In the winter I usually just climb and clear them unless it is a BIG passenger. Landing; the powerlines are not a problem summer or winter.

Hope this gives you an idea of what is typical runway distance used by a Kolb.

--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Repairing the fiberglass nose bowl. Ugh.)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.




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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:56 pm    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

I started out with 600 feet of cow pasture, rough as a cob, with poor
approach and departure, Ultrastar and Firestar without brakes. Never had a
problem with air strip length. Eventually, got 750 feet. Fly a very heavy
MKIII. Use a couple hundred feet to land and take off. It will land and
take off much shorter. 30 mph, pop the flaps, and it is flying. Can land
in several plane lengths, depending on the wind.

No such thing as "Kolb quit." It is a stall above the ground. Most
everything I have flown stalls when it gets below stall speed. To many new
and old Kolb pilots, this comes as quite a surprise.

"But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter)
demonstrations are not even remotely respectable."

Please expand on the above. Who were you watching make these landings?
Heck, it's hard to make a long take off and landing in a Kolb.

Here is an old video from the 2011 Nauga Fly In, Star Hill, Louisiana. No
one was trying to break any short field records. Most of the landings and
take offs look pretty decent to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmf0Me3MpH8

john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon


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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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johngilpin



Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 87
Location: 004

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

A bit off topic, but still indicating the performance capability of a Kolb.
I flew my Firestar ll with a 503, from Telluride, CO, airfield altitude 9,070ft. 
There's a digital sign at the entrance to the runway, indicating density altitude, and at that time was indicating 10,500ft.

Take off roll was a bit extended but not unreasonable.
Climb was slower but got to 13,500ft to get close to the snow.
A very capable aircraft....


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John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4599
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

I have to agree with JCG.  The Kolb is a very capable aircraft, proven many times over.

We don’t like to talk about it, but it is also a very crash worthy aircraft, one of my major concerns when deciding to get into Kolbs.  There was a time one could tell a Challenger pilot by the length of the cast on one leg or the other.  Seemed the mounting system of the nose gear was a little weak.  When failure occurred the pilots feet and legs were next in line.  I will always favor a welded 4130 fuselage over pop riveted gusseted aluminum tube.

Have landed at Leadville, CO, 9,928 feet (?).  Flew straight across the Rockies direct from Rock Springs to Loveland, CO, 4 years ago.  I stopped climbing at 15,175 feet, but the MKIII was still knocking out about 100 fpm.  That was with full fuel and all my gear.

Have been lucky enough or unlucky enough to experience a lot of things with my Kolbs.  Most of the time they would get me home unless I really screwed up, like 18 years ago when I broke the landing gear at Muncho Lake, BC.  The following year I did not make a landing attempt at Muncho Lake.  Merely waved as I flew by.  Wink

The Rock House gang is still going strong.  Some have left and others have arrived.  Make plans to join us next year.

I remember making a zero ground roll landing with my US when caught in a thunderstorm.  On another occasion I did a zero ground roll take off in my FS when caught at the local airport in an approaching thunderstorm.  Had a couple friends hold the FS while I cranked, strapped in, and took off.  Amazing what some young folks will do.

Pardon the rambling, but I feel good this morning after a couple cups of coffee.

John h
Rock House, OR



From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of JC Gilpin
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 2:47 AM
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Defend Your Turf


A bit off topic, but still indicating the performance capability of a Kolb.

I flew my Firestar ll with a 503, from Telluride, CO, airfield altitude 9,070ft.

There's a digital sign at the entrance to the runway, indicating density altitude, and at that time was indicating 10,500ft.
Take off roll was a bit extended but not unreasonable.

Climb was slower but got to 13,500ft to get close to the snow.



A very capable aircraft.....


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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
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Kolburner



Joined: 05 Sep 2018
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

Well, I started this topic and I'm grateful to all who replied. Great video links, and of course, the Kolbs are great short field performers. I knew they had to be, I just hadn't seen the right videos. So, thanks again.

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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1324
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Defend Your Turf Reply with quote

I don't know what videos you've been watching but the Kolb Mk III will take off and land in 300 feet with no problems. I made two videos of landings from outside and inside;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGMvpQRHS-0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ-YaW9WgEU&t=3s

While the latter was made to show how the sight picture changes as flaps are added it does show how short the landing is.
As for takeoff, the Mk III has an automatic takeoff. Just pull on a notch of flaps, hold the stick neutral and add power. Even in no wind she'll come off the ground from three point in 200 ft. and climb like the proverbial home sick angel. When I do touch and go's I use the first part of our 2500' strip but if I'm just landing I try to put her down on the last 500 ft so I don't have to taxi a half mile back to my yard.
Rick Girard


On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 7:54 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

I started out with 600 feet of cow pasture, rough as a cob, with poor
approach and departure, Ultrastar and Firestar without brakes.  Never had a
problem with air strip length.  Eventually, got 750 feet.  Fly a very heavy
MKIII.  Use a couple hundred feet to land and take off.  It will land and
take off much shorter.  30 mph, pop the flaps, and it is flying.  Can land
in several plane lengths, depending on the wind.

No such thing as "Kolb quit."  It is a stall above the ground.  Most
everything I have flown stalls when it gets below stall speed.  To many new
and old Kolb pilots, this comes as quite a surprise.

"But still, even the "Kolb short field landing" (and t/o for that matter)
demonstrations are not even remotely respectable."

Please expand on the above.  Who were you watching make these landings?
Heck, it's hard to make a long take off and landing in a Kolb.

Here is an old video from the 2011 Nauga Fly In, Star Hill, Louisiana.  No
one was trying to break any short field records.  Most of the landings and
take offs look pretty decent to me. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmf0Me3MpH8

john h
mkIII
Rock House, Oregon




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