Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Got some good friends out there in addition to Bill B, but got too much on my plate at the moment to head back to California.

Sometimes a problem is invisible to many eyes for a long period of time, maybe never being solved. Then on the other hand a person will walk up and say, "Hey! Why is that part that way?" Bingo the problem is solved.

I don't know what Bill B's airplane is up to. Maybe that HKS ain't putting out the horses the book and seller said it should. Who knows. I do know a high mounted pusher should not push the nose up, but down. From Bill's description he has a very sluggish FS. Why?

I don't know. ;-(

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

--


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1359
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Bill, Did you ever put trim tabs on your elevators? I went through all the emails I'd saved up since last August when this thread started and I didn't find anything from you on trim tabs other than you believed they'd have to be big with a big deflection. Attached are pictures of the trim tabs I added to the Mk IIIX to fix its lawn dart tendency. They were actually a bit too much for flying solo, but just a tad and since the owner intended to use the airplane for his personal flight training I left them that way. Even so it only took a two finger grip and light pressure to keep the airplane flying straight and level.   I'm going from memory as I never made a drawing of them but the deflected portion was about 6" X 1.5" and bent about 20 degrees.The small amount that they moved the elevator made no discernible difference to cruise speed.

Rick
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 9:15 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory. The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call for.

So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.

If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here Smile

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
 To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>
 Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM

 Bill 
 Having to raise the horizontal
 stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
 being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
 edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
 keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
 boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
 with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
 a slip for landing.
 Sorry this all worth what you paid
 for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
 marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
 night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
 dies.
 Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
 MKIIIC
 On Mon,
 Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>
 wrote:
 --> Kolb-List message posted by:
 Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>



 Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
 the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
 wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
 small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
 correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
 weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
 correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
 and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.



 Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
 with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
 tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
 towards the "normal" setting.



 I am not certain what the "level flight"
 measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
 has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
 has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".



 Bill Berle

 www.ezflaphandle.com 
 - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft

 www.grantstar.net    
       - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
 entities



 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)>
 wrote:



  Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test

  To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)"
 <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>

  Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 6:40 AM



  Bill

  How about adjusting the wing angle

  of attack to get your plane flying level? "When you

  have eliminated all other possibilities then the answer
 no

  matter how improbable must be the answer".

  Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered

  MKIIIC

  On Mon,

  Nov 5, 2018 at 3:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

  wrote:

  --> Kolb-List message posted by:

  Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>







  Hi Larry,







  What was the cruising speed you got from your
 HKS/Firestar

  BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc?







  I have only a few possibilities left if the

  "solid" center section fairing does not get me
 up

  to 60 MPH without the fairings:







  1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the

  "straight" intakes like yours, to point the

  carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other

  curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a

  little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward
 speed

  AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in

  front of the prop.







  2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock
 HKS

  exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is
 lower

  on the mount plate than yours.







  3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58

  gearbox







  Bill Berle



  www.ezflaphandle.com 

  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft



  www.grantstar.net    

        - winning proposals for non-profit and
 for-profit

  entities







  --------------------------------------------



  On Sun, 11/4/18, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

  wrote:







   Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST
 test



   To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)"

  <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)>



   Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM







   I can't add much



   of anything to what John said, since most of my
 knowledge



   comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add

  is



   that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up
 the



   drag-  strut fairings, gear legs etc.



   Anxiously waiting to



   hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry



   On Sun,



   Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>



   wrote:



   --> Kolb-List message posted by:



   Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>















   Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My



   modifications since last test flight were:















   1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to

  12



   inches under the wing.







   2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing.







   3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center



   section so that no air could "leak" or flow



   upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing

  drag



   and bad airflow into the prop)







   4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the

  center



   of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft

  end



   of the CG rrange.















   On this test run, we were finally able to do a static

  thrust



   measurement.















   At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale

  registered



   250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP
 at

  its



   redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of
 max



   RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65

  inch



   diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip.















   So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit



   data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured

  the



   static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines

  and



   similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a

  little,



   a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a

  Firestar



   2.















   Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what



   static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a

  Kolb?















   Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP



   class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and
 582?















   How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate
 or



   acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff



   performance?















   The next step is to finalize the center section cover
 (I



   made four or five of them trying to come up with what

  would



   work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal

  and



   Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can



   resume my test flying, and see if this made enough



   difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH.















   Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the



   streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley /

  U-Fly-it)



   and work on all of the little drag redusing things that

  Jack



   Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get

  my



   Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C
 is



   getting on his Firestar / HKS setup.















   Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and

  Firestar



   2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer
 landing



   gear legs than Larry does.















   Bill Berle







   www.ezflaphandle.com 



   - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft







   www.grantstar.net    



         - winning proposals for non-profit and

  for-profit



   entities























   ===========







   br>



   fts!)







   r>



   >



   e.com"

  rel="noreferrer"



   target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com







   rel="noreferrer"



   target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution







             -Matt Dralle, List Admin.







   ===========







   -List" rel="noreferrer"



   target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List







   ===========







    FORUMS -







   eferrer"



   target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com







   ===========







   WIKI -







   errer"



   target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com







   ===========







   b Site -







             -Matt Dralle, List Admin.







   rel="noreferrer"



   target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution







   ===========







































   --



   The



   older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are



   intolerant of others.



   If you forward this email, or any part of



   it, please remove my email address before sending.











  ===========



  br>

  fts!)



  r>

  >

  e.com"
 rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com



  rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.



  ===========



  -List" rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List



  ===========



   FORUMS -



  eferrer"

  target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com



  ===========



  WIKI -



  errer"

  target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com



  ===========



  b Site -



            -Matt Dralle, List Admin.



  rel="noreferrer"

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



  ===========



















 ===========

 br>
 fts!)

 r>
 >
 e.com" rel="noreferrer"
 target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com

 rel="noreferrer"
 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 ===========

 -List" rel="noreferrer"
 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer"
 target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer"
 target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer"
 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========









===========
br> fts!)
r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========




--
“Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.”   Groucho Marx


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List



Right_elevator_trim_tab.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  803.7 KB
 Viewed:  2437 Time(s)

Right_elevator_trim_tab.jpg



Left_elevator_trim_tab.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  822.48 KB
 Viewed:  2437 Time(s)

Left_elevator_trim_tab.jpg



_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rascaljohn



Joined: 02 May 2013
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

thanks for the advice
dual carbs dual ignition, rotax exhaust, no silencer. 2.58 B reduction gearbox.
carbs have been balanced,
what type of scale is everyone using for static thrust measurement...marlin fishing...?
john fitt
sebastopol,ca

On Monday, November 5, 2018 6:10 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com> wrote:



If you’re pulling 5900 rpm static, I would fly it and see what I have inflight. There is a pretty good chance that you’re going to pick up that extra 300 rpm. I run the same GRT 2000 EIS. With a Rotax CDI it’s suppose be programed for you from the factory. So I’m guessing that’s not a problem. I know mine worked great once I changed the pulse input for a Hirth. You never said, if you’re running single or dual carbs?George H
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 5:12 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:


As you recommended, I tried a “tiny tach” with the input sensor wire around the spark plug wire , in several different positions and number of wraps...the readings were way off- 12000 which might be some multiple of the real rpm, but...So I can’t say that was useful. What other method or connection point is foolproof? My rpm is now shown on a GRT EIS monitor ( making sure that the input is for the 503)
Kolb recommended and sold me the prop, - 12 deg. recommended pitch starting point,
If I Allowed the plane to taxi and then observed that the rpm was increasing would this be a bad idea?
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:22 PM, George Helton <gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:



Well, John the first thing that I would do is make tachometer is reading correctly. I’m running a different engine and prop combination( 2702 Hirth with a 3 blade, 64” Powerfin)and I’m pitched at 6.7 degrees to obtain my maximum rpm of 5500rpm. This isn’t apples to apples because I’m running a low rpm high torque engine with a single carb, rated at 40 hp with 2:29 ratio gearbox.
Is this a single carb engine? I’d drop pitch to 6.5 degrees and see if that works. You’re also swinging a heavy prop. I think most guys run a 60” 3 blade on that engine? I’m not sure about that? I suspect your tach. If you had a timing issue it would be hard to start and probably would have burned up by now. As always it’s worth what it cost ya.
George H
Firestar, FS 100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton(at)gmail.com (gdhelton(at)gmail.com)Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 12:48 PM, John Fitt <jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net (jpfitt(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:



I’ve been struggling with getting my 503 dcdi fs ll to turn more than 5900 rpm static with a 62” 3 blade Warpdrive pitched all the way down to 8 1/4 degrees. Good compression, plugs good color, good running except for the low rpm. Has anyone had an ignition timing issue? Is there any adjustment or way to check this?Have not done measured static thrust test but it sure pulls strong against the rope tied to the tail - easily puts the tail up in the air.
Previous replies to this same question were “reduce prop pitch till you get 6200 -6300 rpm”
I’m at 8-1/4deg !?!? Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 5, 2018, at 7:05 AM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
58 to 60 would be the "normal" speed without any "improvements" made to clean it up.
Larry

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 1:08 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> Hi Larry, What was the cruising speed you got from your HKS/Firestar BEFORE the strut fairings, gear leg fairings, etc? I have only a few possibilities left if the "solid" center section fairing does not get me up to 60 MPH without the fairings: 1) Modify the intake maniforlds or use the "straight" intakes like yours, to point the carburetors forward into the airflow. Mine are the other curved type and my carburetors face rearward. This puts a little bit of suction at the carb inlet from forward speed AND the inlet be ing in the "suction" area in front of the prop. 2) Remove the entire exhaust system to mount the stock HKS exhaust. This will be difficult because my engine is lower on the mount plate than yours. 3) Trade my engine for another engine that has a 2.58 gearbox Bill Berle lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote: Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)> Date: Sunday, November 4, 2018, 8:16 AM I can't add much of anything to what John said, since most of my knowledge comes from John in the first place. One thing I can add is that the increase in airspeed comes from cleaning up the drag- strut fairings, gear legs etc. Anxiously waiting to hear how the plane is going to fly.Larry On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:51 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> Today was first engine run (after my recent mods). My modifications since last test flight were: 1) Move oil cooler from top surface of the wing down to 12 inches under the wing. 2) Move oil reservoir tank down underneath the wing. 3) Fabricate a "solid" cover for the center section so that no air could "leak" or flow upwards form the bottom to the top of the wing (causing drag and bad airflow into the prop) 4) Move the fuel tank forward so it is now under the center of gravity, so that the aircraft CG is not near the aft end of the CG rrange. On this test run, we were finally able to do a static thrust measurement. At 5850 RPM on the ground, the giant spring scale registered 250 pounds of thrust. The engine is nominally 58-60HP at its redline of 6200 RPM, which means I was making 94% of max RPM. This was with a 3 blade wide chord propeller, 65 inch diameter, with 11 degrees of pitch measured at the tip. So the purpose of this Kolb List post is to solicit data/opinion/experience from Kolbers who have measured the static thrust on their Rotax 503, 532, and 582 engines and similar. I have NO IDEA if 250 pounds of thrust is a little, a lot, average, below average, or incredible for a Firestar 2. Kolbers...how does 250 pounds of thrust compare to what static thrust YOU measured with your 503/532/582 on a Kolb? Does 250 pounds of thrust seem correct for a "60HP class" engine... somewhere between the 503 and 582? How many pounds of thrust do YOU think is appropriate or acceptable for Kolb being set up for short takeoff performance? The next step is to finalize the center section cover (I made four or five of them trying to come up with what would work best). Finally went with thin aluminum sheet metal and Velcro. Once this is all finalized and installed, I can resume my test flying, and see if this made enough difference to raise the cruise speed to 65MPH. Once I get to 63-65 MPH I can reduce drag using the streamlilned strut fairings (from Dennis Carley / U-Fly-it) and work on all of the little drag redusing things that Jack Hart has documented on his Firefly. Hopefully I can get my Firestar up to the 68-72 MPH cruise speed that Larry C is getting on his Firestar / HKS setup. Larry and I both have the same large bush tires and Firestar 2 airframe. I have a different gearbox and longer landing gear legs than Larry does. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities =========== br> fts!) r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List =========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com =========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. =========== br> fts!) r> > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List =========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com =========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========


-- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.

If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.




- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

I probably have less than 10 minutes of Kolb air time, so I can't claim
to speak with authority. But many on this list have talked about what
poor performers Kolbs are if the center section gap seal is missing, and
having an opening between the inboard end of the wings and the fuselage
(or the other wing) has proven to be very detrimental to the wing's
performance in many other planes. From what I've read, it's due to
getting 'tip drag' in four places, instead of two, and effectively
halving (or worse) the aspect ratio of the wing. If that was happening
to your plane, could the wing have had such poor efficiency that it
needed to have an abnormally high AOA relative to the tail? If that was
happening, it could account for poor top speed, as well. Just
speculating, of course. Have you tried just flying it down the runway in
ground effect since closing up the center section?

Charlie

On 11/5/2018 9:13 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
Quote:


I agree totally with the logic, but the measurements and parameters I got from Duane at Kolb are showing that the wing is on the fuselage right. The trailing edge of the wing is set by the location of the U-joinot welded at the factory. The leading edge is set by where the bolt/pin hole is drilled in the spar fitting on the wing. This hole was almost exactly where Duane said the plans call for.

So w hat I am saying is that the airplane is behaving as if the incidences are all wrong, but the incidence measurements are correct as far as I can see.

If John H wants to take a vacation and come out to Los Angeles, use his know ledge and experience to get to the bottom of all this I would certainly welcome it... but I have a feeling he pretty much has no interest in being around Los Angeles city. Not many Kolbers here Smile

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 11/5/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test
To: "kolb-list(at)matronics.com" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: Monday, November 5, 2018, 11:00 AM

Bill
Having to raise the horizontal
stabilizer as high as you have to is the symptom of the wing
being set with the leading edge too high and/or the trailing
edge too low. Your tail has to be flying way too high to
keep from climbing. You have a bunch more fuselage and tail
boom being pushed through the air than if it were lined up
with the air flow. It's a bit like putting your plane in
a slip for landing.
Sorry this all worth what you paid
for it and I'm probably wrong. After 44 years of
marriage my wife told me I was right for the 30th time last
night!!!!! I'm shooting for 40 before one of us
dies.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Mon,
Nov 5, 2018 at 11:37 AM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>



Hi Rick, I did speak to Duane at Kolb a few times to verify
the proper measurements of the wing and tail incidence. My
wings sit on the fuselage at the correct angle within a
small fraction. My tailboom (fuselage tube) is at the
correct angle because that is set at the factory when they
weld the fuselage jig. My horizontal tail started out at the
correct angle (per Duane's measurement and the plans)
and I had to raise the tail in order for it to fly level.



Since then, John H and several other Kolbers were not happy
with the LE of the tail being raised up, so I moved the fuel
tank forward, so I can start lowering the tail back down
towards the "normal" setting.



I am not certain what the "level flight"
measurement is on the Firestar. I cannot recall if anyone
has an official concrete number "the bottom of the wing
has to be X degrees to the horizon for level flight".






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

"... many on this list have talked about what poor performers Kolbs are if the center section gap seal is missing, and having an opening between the inboard end of the wings and the fuselage "

" ... From what I've read, it's due to getting 'tip drag' in four places, instead of two, and effectively halving (or worse) the aspect ratio of the wing. If that was happening to your plane, could the wing have had such poor efficiency that it needed to have an abnormally high AOA relative to the tail?"

"... If that was happening, it could account for poor top speed, as well. Just speculating, of course. Have you tried just flying it down the runway in ground effect since closing up the center section?"

------------------------------

Charlie this is exactly why I chose to re-do the center gap seal first, before assuming the engine and/or propeller was wrong. I agree 100% that the drag and distrubed flow from a bad or missing gap seal can cause much bigger problems than we would expect. As an old washed up glider pilot, I can personally verify that air leakage and disturbed air flow is a big deal. In gliders it's all we have to work with... no engine or propeller to "cheat" with Smile

It's not that the Kolb needs the lift form thecenter section... the Kolb has PLENTY of wing area to make enough lift without the center. But the disturbance and "four wingtips" effect you mention can act like a spoiler or airbrake. Maybe some of the experienced Kolbers can quantify just how much of a difference it makes with and without the gap seal?

So this is why I put a lot of time and effort into fixing this problem first, then test flying it, and seeing just how much of the problem this one thing did or did not solve. Before I start playing around with strut fairings and other deag reduction tweaks.

First test flight will hopefully be this week. All I need is to get the Velcro glued on to the wing and center gap seal well enough to be sure it will be secure and not let air flow through any "holes" or gaps.

Although I have almost zero Kolb experience, I do be lieve that I will be able to tell immediately if this fix is making a big difference or not.

Bill


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

John and all
Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, but I am only half way through...
My Firefly,first one, had to be gotten on step for minimal cruise drag..I simply set up cruise rpms..and gently nursed the nose down just slightly...would see an immediate pickup in rpm's and a bit more airspeed..
Flying with a buddy who also had a Firefly: I noticed that he was dragging the tail...and as I recall, he had previously complained about fuel burn...Just a thought...
Herb
Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Monday, November 5, 2018 9:55 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

[quote]

Got some good friends out there in addition to Bill B, but got too much on my plate at the moment to head back to California.

Sometimes a problem is invisible to many eyes for a long period of time, maybe never being solved. Then on the other hand a person will walk up and say, "Hey! Why is that part that way?" Bingo the problem is solved.

I don't know what Bill B's airplane is up to. Maybe that HKS ain't putting out the horses the book and seller said it should. Who knows. I do know a high mounted pusher should not push the nose up, but down. From Bill's description he has a very sluggish FS. Why?

I don't know. ;-(

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

--


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Bingo! The light bulb just went off!!!

Thanks for reminding me, Herb.

Way back when, 1985, the original Firestar kits came with extremely soft Lord Mounts. During the early days of my Firestar I was constantly trying to learn about and tweak my FS to improve performance and to make it a safer airplane to accomplish long cross country flights. Normally, my FS would fly 80 mph straight and level. One day I took off, WOT, leveled out and the FS would only fly about 60 or so mph??? Couldn't figure out what was wrong. Slowly came back on the power and the FS accelerated. Slowly increased power and it accelerated right on up to 80.

During a static run up I noticed the engine twisted left and down, putting most of the pressure on the left front Lord Mount. The thrust line was way out of whack. Came back on the power, the engine would straighten back up again. The Lord Mounts were too soft. Little Mike at Old Kolb Aircraft sent me a set of harder Lord Mounts. Problem solved.

I can't remember any adverse trim problems when the offset engine problem occurred, but when it did it was just like I was dragging an anchor. As I eased off the power from WOT the aircraft would begin to accelerate. Then I could ease the power on very slowly and get the aircraft to continue to accelerate to normal speed.

Maybe Bill B needs stiffer Lord Mounts. One way to check is tie the FS down and play with the throttle while watching what the engine does. Might surprise you.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama


--


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:48 am    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

On Tue, 11/6/18, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

One day I took off, WOT, leveled out and the FS would only fly about 60 or so mph???  Couldn't figure
out what was wrong.  Slowly came back on the power and the FS accelerated.  Slowly increased power and it
accelerated right on up to 80. 

During a static run up I noticed the engine twisted left and down, putting most of the pressure on the left front Lord Mount.  The thrust line was way out of whack.  Came back on the power, the engine would straighten back up again.  The Lord Mounts were too soft.  Little Mike at Old Kolb Aircraft sent me a set of harder Lord Mounts. 

Maybe Bill B needs stiffer Lord Mounts.  One way to check is tie the FS down and play with the throttle while watching what the engine does.  Might surprise you.

-------------------------------------------------

Well, that is one test that I can do without too much of a problem, and it is a test that can be done at exactly my desired cost... zero! So next time I have someone who can observe this, or measure it, or photograph it, I will try to do so.


Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

You can handle that job all by yourself. After you get the tail tied, stand on the right side of the cockpit, watch how the position of the engine reacts when you go WOT and when you manipulate the throttle. Easy job.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama



-------------------------------------------------

Well, that is one test that I can do without too much of a problem, and it is a test that can be done at exactly my desired cost... zero! So next time I have someone who can observe this, or measure it, or photograph it, I will try to do so.


Bill Berle


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
slingshot003



Joined: 10 Mar 2017
Posts: 17
Location: FL USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Bill,
 
May I suggest you re-examine  your logic tree.  I personally have many times fell victim to a faulty logic tree while attempting to solve a problem. 
 
If I was encountering your problem, I would first establish that I had a problem.  The prop pitch must be set as per the earlier posts, then establish the fact that my climb rate and cruise speed is problematic.  If you don’t have a rate of climb instrument, just time how long it takes to go from take off to 1000’ (this assumes you have an altimeter.)  Confirm your airspeed by going over a known, measured distance, say 2 miles, and time it in both directions to eliminate tail/head wind.  Do it a few times and take an average. (This is all free!)  With my 43hp Cuyuna Ultrastar,  I got 1000fpm, plus or minus 200fpm depending on load and weather (a full length flaperon mod was also a factor here) .  The 65 hp 582 Slingshot was 900-1000fpm, but it was heavy and only has 22ft wings.
 
If your performance is in fact problematic, then you must determine if the cause is in the power system or the aircraft, or both.  If you don’t have the power and thrust, you can’t have the climb and speed, so my second step would be to see if I am getting 60hp of thrust from my engine/redrive/propeller system.   I can think of 2 ways to acquire this result: 1) Static thrust test with pull scale; or, 2) a timed acceleration run from minimum flight speed to maximum.  #2 requires googling the formula to convert acceleration to thrust (also in a recent issue of Kitplane), a little math, and a gps, so I would go with the simpler #1 & find static thrust using a pull scale.
 
To find accurate static thrust, the main wheels must be on a hard surface and the tail lifted to about a foot above the ground.  If you do not have pull scale with in the 350 lbs range, you can buy a 500# game scale for $15 at academy.com .   Once you get you result, call your prop manufacturer & ask them what static thrust a dual carb 503 and 582 should get.  If your result is significantly below their figures, then you know that your aircraft’s  performance is proportionally lower as well.  If your results are not above the 50hp 503 or a little lower than the 65hp 582, then your motor is either over rated by the manufacturer, or it is underperforming due to some issue.  If the static thrust is in the ballpark, then you must look into the other branch of the logic tree, namely aircraft setup.
 
I don’t know all the steps you have taken, but confirming the status of the power system is first priority.

--
 Click on to Richard's Blog:[/url]  

[url=http://godstuffrichard.blogspot.com]Thoughts On God And Life
  -Prose, [b]Prayers, Poems & Ponderings     
[/b]


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
wakataka



Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

I measured 290 pounds static with a Rotax 377 turning a 66" Warp Drive prop. There was a slight amount of tailwind that day, so I suspect that number is slightly inflated, but I'm sure it produces at least 250 pounds. It jumps right off the ground.

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frankd



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Hello Bill/ Kolbers

Seems like there is some progress on your thrust issue, your combo of Gearbox and prop is an area to work on.

Do you still have your extended exhaust pipes and exhaust under the boom. Maybe that is creating alot of drag to slow you down. It sounds like your engine is running well so the exhaust may be working well and not robbing power, but the added tubes and stuff out in the airstream must be a drag source.
Maybe you can take the exhaust off for a test (No cost, just very noisy).

Also, your alignment of wings and Horizontal Stab is working, you have proved that. One thing you did not confirm is the angle of the boom tube to the ground in flying position. IF that was wrong and set too high at the tail, your angles of wings and Horz will have to be adjusted to offset this boom angle. And this is exactly how you have rigged your plane. You have assumed the boom was set correctly at the factory but maybe something is off and this is an incorrect assumption.

These are thoughts about your situation and as stated before worth what ya paid for it.

FrankD

Do not archive


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Hauck



Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: HKS / Firestar STATIC THRUST test Reply with quote

Fuselages are welded in a jig. Be pretty difficult to get the tail boom
angle incorrect.

john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama

--


- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group