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Fat Ultralight

 
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Sptom



Joined: 01 Jan 2019
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

I’m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesn’t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

No Firestar 2 will meet the Part 103 restrictions. Even the Firestar 1 will be very very difficult to do that with. If it was possible to build a Firestar that genuinely meets Part 103, Kolb would not have had any reason to develop the Firefly.

The FAA usually does NOTgo out looking to "bust" fat ultralights, they really try to look the other way and not be bothered. BUT the minute one of them sees the second seat behind the pilot seat they are going to have to do something. They can't look the other way with the number of seats like they can with just being "fat". With more than one seat they have to treat it like there could be a passenger injured or killed, flying with an un-licensed "pilot". They just cannot look the other way when thee "ultralight" has room for a passenger.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net> wrote:

Subject: Fat Ultralight
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM


<Tjweeks(at)cox.net>

I’m considering purchasing a
Firestar II with a 503.  It doesn’t have an N
number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
a ballistic parachute.  From what I understand it can
be registered as experimental light sport if I have
documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
percent rule.  Do I have that right?  Is this
doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
ultralight?  Thanks in advance for any advice you can
give.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671






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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:49 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

On 1/2/2019 7:54 PM, Sptom wrote:
Quote:


I’m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesn’t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

No option for registering as light sport; that option for 'fat

ultralites' ended years ago. You *MIGHT* get away with registering as
experimental amateur built, if you can convince an inspector that it
wasn't factory built, and the actual builder built it for 'education and
recreation', without any build logs. (Good luck...)

The one legal path that *might* work (depends on how knowledgeable your
inspector is) is experimental exhibition. No option for a 'repairman's
certificate', but any a&p can sign off the annuals, and you can still do
your own maintenance.

Charlie

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Pfatchantz(at)protonmail.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:59 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

I dug out the w/b for the James A. Tripp FSII...445 lbs empty... It is likely a bit heavy(quite a bit??) ...I suspect that the std FSII should come in under 390...long way from 254 however... Herb


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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:08 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Quote:


No Firestar 2 will meet the Part 103 restrictions. Even the Firestar 1 will be very very difficult to do that with. If it was possible to build a Firestar that genuinely meets Part 103, Kolb would not have had any reason to develop the Firefly.

The FAA usually does NOTgo out looking to "bust" fat ultralights, they really try to look the other way and not be bothered. BUT the minute one of them sees the second seat behind the pilot seat they are going to have to do something. They can't look the other way with the number of seats like they can with just being "fat". With more than one seat they have to treat it like there could be a passenger injured or killed, flying with an un-licensed "pilot". They just cannot look the other way when thee "ultralight" has room for a passenger.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom Tjweeks(at)cox.net wrote:

Subject: Fat Ultralight
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM


Tjweeks(at)cox.net

I’m considering purchasing a
Firestar II with a 503.  It doesn’t have an N
number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
a ballistic parachute.  From what I understand it can
be registered as experimental light sport if I have
documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
percent rule.  Do I have that right?  Is this
doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
ultralight?  Thanks in advance for any advice you can
give.

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

obviously one can buy paper work from a wrecked plane.. Not sure about the legality but it is done from time to time..Herb
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‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:51 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


On 1/2/2019 7:54 PM, Sptom wrote:

>
> I’m considering purchasing a Firestar II with a 503. It doesn’t have an N number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for a ballistic parachute. From what I understand it can be registered as experimental light sport if I have documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51 percent rule. Do I have that right? Is this doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat ultralight? Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

No option for registering as light sport; that option for 'fat
ultralites' ended years ago. You MIGHT get away with registering as
experimental amateur built, if you can convince an inspector that it
wasn't factory built, and the actual builder built it for 'education and
recreation', without any build logs. (Good luck...)

The one legal path that might work (depends on how knowledgeable your
inspector is) is experimental exhibition. No option for a 'repairman's
certificate', but any a&p can sign off the annuals, and you can still do
your own maintenance.

Charlie
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Sptom



Joined: 01 Jan 2019
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

Thanks guys! So it must be flown as an ultralight unless one wants to jump through a bunch of FAA hoops to get a N number which seems like a long shot. I appreciate you input.

Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:39 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

Tom do you have any information that this Firestar was built by the Kolb factory? Or was it built by a customer who bought the kit from Kolb? There may be hope for you... read on...

The Kolb Firestar KITS sold by the factory have been shown to meet the FAA definition of an Amateur Built Experimental. So a Kolb built from one of the factory kits MEETS the FAA's "51%" rule.

If the Kolb factory will furnish you with a letter saying that your Kolb, serial number XYZ, was sold as a KIT that meets the FAA's guidelines, then that aircraft will meet the FAA requirements for an amateur built aircraft. The FAA would very very likely be willing to issue an airworthiness certificate as an E-AB (Experimental - Amateur Built).

The only added advantage that you would get by proving that YOU built it form that kit is that you could apply for the "Repairman's Certificate" and do your own annual Condition Inspection.

However, even if you do not have that repairman certificate, your airplane would still qualify as an E-AB, get an N number, etc. But you would have to hire an A&P Mechanic to do the condition inspection.

Now here's the big sand trap you would have to avoid: DO NOT present this to the FAAA as a flying "Fat Ultralight" that you want to SWITCH over to an E-AB. That window of opportunity closed many years ago, and trying to do THAT will put you in regulatory quicksand.

What you need to do is present the situation to the FAA that you bought a Kolb Firestar 2 project that had been halfway built by one person, and then another person did some work on it, and then someone else, and then finally you bought it when it was almost done and you finished it. THEN you basically say to the FAA that you can NOT honestly claim that you built 51% of it, but that the Kolb factory has verified that it was originally a 51% kit, so it was in fact "amateur built". Just not by you. DO NOT EVER say that it flew at any time.

Under this circumstance, the FAA will allow an E-AB certificate of airworthiness to be issued, and a new N number for it, but they will not allow you to apply for the repairman certificate.

Without any doubt, the best way to do this is to use an FAA DAR (Designated Airworthiness Representative) to do the inspections and issue the approval for the AW certificate. It is well worth the $800-1500 to have a professional DAR do this.

Once you have applied for an N number with the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch in Oklahoma City, contact a local FAA-DAR that specializes in new E-AB certificates, tell them the story about how you bought a project airplane, show them the letter from Kolb verifying that this was not a factory built airplane, and have them swim through all the FAA paperwork.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net> wrote:

Subject: Fat Ultralight
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM


<Tjweeks(at)cox.net>

I’m considering purchasing a
Firestar II with a 503.  It doesn’t have an N
number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
a ballistic parachute.  From what I understand it can
be registered as experimental light sport if I have
documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
percent rule.  Do I have that right?  Is this
doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
ultralight?  Thanks in advance for any advice you can
give.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671






Support Your Lists This Month --
(And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Fund Raiser.  Click on
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rickofudall



Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1355
Location: Udall, KS, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

The only option for registration open to you is Experimental Exhibition which is a lot more restrictive than Experimental Amateur Built.  Unless the Kolb factory creates a Firestar II SLSA and sells a kit the way RV has done with their model 12 there is no way you can register it as Experimental Light Sport. That ship sailed in 2008.

Rick Girard
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:12 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

No Firestar 2 will meet the Part 103 restrictions. Even the Firestar 1 will be very very difficult to do that with. If it was possible to build a Firestar that genuinely meets Part 103, Kolb would not have had any reason to develop the Firefly.

The FAA usually does NOTgo out looking to "bust" fat ultralights, they really try to look the other way and not be bothered. BUT the minute one of them sees the second seat behind the pilot seat they are going to have to do something. They can't look the other way with the number of seats like they can with just being "fat". With more than one seat they have to treat it like there could be a passenger injured or killed, flying with an un-licensed "pilot". They just cannot look the other way when thee "ultralight" has room for a  passenger.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 Subject: Fat Ultralight
 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
 Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Sptom"
 <Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)>

 I’m considering purchasing a
 Firestar II with a 503.  It doesn’t have an N
 number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
 I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
 a ballistic parachute.  From what I understand it can
 be registered as experimental light sport if I have
 documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
 percent rule.  Do I have that right?  Is this
 doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
 ultralight?  Thanks in advance for any advice you can
 give.




 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671






 Support Your Lists This Month --
 (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
 Fund Raiser.  Click on
 to find out more about
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 support!
                
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:33 am    Post subject: Fat Ultralight Reply with quote

Hi Rick,
The FAA liberalized the E E rules a number of years ago, removing the 300nm radius 'proficiency area' and home airport restrictions. The only practical distinction from EAB now is that there's no 51% rule for EE (!!) and there's no 'repairmans' certificate' for annual inspections, but that's offset by the fact that there's no type certificate, so only an A&P ticket is needed for annual signoffs (IA ticket not required).
Functionally, at the beginning of each year, you fax the FAA a list of all the 'events' you (might) plan to attend during the year (compiled from published calendars). All other flying is for 'proficiency', with only EAB-style restrictions on where you fly (avoid densely populated areas, etc).
Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 11:32 PM Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
The only option for registration open to you is Experimental Exhibition which is a lot more restrictive than Experimental Amateur Built.  Unless the Kolb factory creates a Firestar II SLSA and sells a kit the way RV has done with their model 12 there is no way you can register it as Experimental Light Sport. That ship sailed in 2008.

Rick Girard
On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 8:12 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net (victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

No Firestar 2 will meet the Part 103 restrictions. Even the Firestar 1 will be very very difficult to do that with. If it was possible to build a Firestar that genuinely meets Part 103, Kolb would not have had any reason to develop the Firefly.

The FAA usually does NOTgo out looking to "bust" fat ultralights, they really try to look the other way and not be bothered. BUT the minute one of them sees the second seat behind the pilot seat they are going to have to do something. They can't look the other way with the number of seats like they can with just being "fat". With more than one seat they have to treat it like there could be a passenger injured or killed, flying with an un-licensed "pilot". They just cannot look the other way when thee "ultralight" has room for a  passenger.

Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com  - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net           - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/2/19, Sptom <Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 Subject: Fat Ultralight
 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
 Date: Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 5:54 PM

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Sptom"
 <Tjweeks(at)cox.net (Tjweeks(at)cox.net)>

 I’m considering purchasing a
 Firestar II with a 503.  It doesn’t have an N
 number. Owner tells me it qualifies for part 103 but
 I’m doubtful even with the added weight allowance for
 a ballistic parachute.  From what I understand it can
 be registered as experimental light sport if I have
 documentation by the manufacturer that it meets the 51
 percent rule.  Do I have that right?  Is this
 doable or is the airplane always going to be an illegal fat
 ultralight?  Thanks in advance for any advice you can
 give.




 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486671#486671






 Support Your Lists This Month --
 (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
 Fund Raiser.  Click on
 to find out more about
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      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
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