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Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place

 
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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:57 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

All

I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.

Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.

Bob Reed
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matthew.kuriger



Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:11 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Hi Bob

Our KIS TR-4 (ZK-TEL) has an empty weight of 1553 pounds with
Continental IO-360 and MT constant speed propeller. The rest of the
aircraft is pretty standard as per plans, but has been well equipped
in terms of leather upholstery/carpets and steam gauges/vacuum system.
It has a simple electrical system (single battery/alternator).

We're currently replacing the existing battery with an EarthX ETX900
battery to reduce weight and move CoG rearward as the battery is on
the firewall. This will shed approx 20 pounds from the empty weight
making it 1533 lbs. Aircraft MAUW is 2,500 lbs.

Having completed a type rating for the aircraft recently at different
weights (including MAUW), I find the handling great at all weights.
However I can only compare against Cessnas (e.g. 172) that I have been
accustomed too.....
I found the biggest difference is on approach/landing, when one needs
to keep the speed up with some power (right up to the flare) to avoid
high sink rates, particularly at the higher weights. I have been using
final approach speed of 85 knots, 75 across threshold, with touchdown
speeds of 70 knots works well at heavier weights. We have only been
using 1st notch of flaps on landing (10 degrees), mainly due to high
flap handle loads for 2nd notch. Also, our aircraft has a listed clean
stalling speed at MAUW (Vs) of 61 knots, and a stalling speed landing
config at MAUW (Vso) of 56 knots. We have not checked the accuracy /
calibration of our airspeed system yet at lower speeds.

Matt Kuriger
Quote:
On 7/01/2019, at 2:54 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:



All

I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.

Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.

Bob Reed
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Bob
Empty wt 1436
Can't send wt &bal spreadsheet since my computer is it working with email now.
Tested to 2450 , and flew fine
Bill

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net> wrote:

Quote:


All

I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy. I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs. I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.

Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.

Bob Reed
Sent from my iPhone






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GalinHdz



Joined: 08 Nov 2017
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:35 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

My BEW is 1,393lbs. A Lycoming O360-A4M with a CATTO 3bladed composite propeller and everything else basically as per original plans. 

With Rich we tested it at 2,500lbs but just for takeoff not landing. The max we landed was at 2,400lbs. The airplane handled just fine at these weights. At 2,500lbs it climbed and maneuvered like a C-172 with a 180Hp engine. FWIW I use a max takeoff weight of 2,500lbs but normally takeoff at about 2,300lbs. But even if I takeoff at 2,500lbs, I use a max landing weight of 2,300lbs.
For landing speeds I find that the airplane really likes approaching at 85Kts (1 notch of flaps), slowing down to 75Kts (full flaps) on short final then pulling the nose up slightly and touching down at 65Kts. Not that much different from what Matt Kuriger uses. At significantly lower weights, I use 80Kts, 70Kts and 60Kts for the speeds. With the CATTO propeller, unless I do something dumb (which is not very uncommon) the landings are as smooth as a C-172.
YMMV
On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 6:08 PM Bill Schertz <wschertz343(at)gmail.com (wschertz343(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

Quote:
--> KIS-List message posted by: Bill Schertz <wschertz343(at)gmail.com (wschertz343(at)gmail.com)>

Bob
Empty wt 1436
Can't send wt &bal spreadsheet since my computer is  it working with email now.
Tested to 2450 , and flew fine
Bill

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

> --> KIS-List message posted by: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>
>
> All
>
> I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy.  I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs.  I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.
>
> Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
>
> Bob Reed
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Hi Bob, glad to hear you are getting close to flying. Like many of the other responses my Cruiser has a higher empty weight than plans. The price we pay for adding things. My empty weight is 1,493 lbs. LM 565, RM 558, and nose 370. CG 40.80”.
I listed my gross weight as 2500 lbs. I tested it to a maximum weight of 2505 including landing. Mark K has suggested using higher gross weights than Rich specified.
It handled fine but I knew I was flying a heavy plane and flew accordingly. It should be noted I did extend the elevator by about 2 inches and have a large trim tab as suggested by some builders. The speeds listed by Galin should work fine for you.
I don’t think you will need to announce yourself as “Experimental Heavy” in the pattern.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Robert Reed (robertr237(at)att.net)
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:54 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place


--> KIS-List message posted by: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net>

All

I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy.  I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs.  I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.

Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.

Bob Reed
Sent from my iPhone
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mike(at)vision499.com
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Weight Station

Nose Wheel 420.50 -8.00
Left Main 585.00 59.00
Right Main 551.00 59.00
Total 1,556.50

My weights are also much higher than spec. I knew I was building heavy but
it was a lot more than I expected.
That explains where all the extra gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
got went.
I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not sure I'm prepared for the effort to
remove it.
Robert, could you please give us a breakdown of how much of your weight is
on the nose wheel and how much on the mains

Good luck

Mike


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GalinHdz



Joined: 08 Nov 2017
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

As per the FAA FAR: If you communicate with ATC on the radio, then you have to use the term EXPERIMENTAL as your call sign when you first check in with them. It is debatable if you have to continue using the term EXPERIMENTAL for all subsequent radio calls to ATC since the FAR's do not mandate this. I have found out a few ATC Controllers get real snarky if you don't use the term EXPERIMENTAL in all your radio calls. Outside the USA you only use the term NOVEMBER as your call sign. If you do not talk to ATC, like when operating in a non-towered airport, then use of the term EXPERIMENTAL is not mandatory.

FWIW: I always use the term EXPERIMENTAL as part of my good Radio Protocol habit, even when operating at an un-towered airport.  YMMV   

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:13 PM Ed Hanson <hansoncp(at)netnitco.net (hansoncp(at)netnitco.net)> wrote:

Quote:

Hi Bob, glad to hear you are getting close to flying. Like many of the other responses my Cruiser has a higher empty weight than plans. The price we pay for adding things. My empty weight is 1,493 lbs. LM 565, RM 558, and nose 370. CG 40.80”.
I listed my gross weight as 2500 lbs. I tested it to a maximum weight of 2505 including landing. Mark K has suggested using higher gross weights than Rich specified.
It handled fine but I knew I was flying a heavy plane and flew accordingly. It should be noted I did extend the elevator by about 2 inches and have a large trim tab as suggested by some builders. The speeds listed by Galin should work fine for you.
I don’t think you will need to announce yourself as “Experimental Heavy” in the pattern.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Robert Reed (robertr237(at)att.net)
Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2019 7:54 AM
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: KIS-List: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place

 
--> KIS-List message posted by: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>
 
All
 
I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy.  I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs.  I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.
 
Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.
 
Bob Reed
Sent from my iPhone
 

 
 
 
 
 



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GalinHdz



Joined: 08 Nov 2017
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

EXPERIMENTAL HEAVY is optional.  Wink

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 8:58 AM Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)> wrote:

Quote:
--> KIS-List message posted by: Robert Reed <robertr237(at)att.net (robertr237(at)att.net)>

All

I did my weight yesterday and I am heavy.  I expected to be a little heavier than the prototype but not 300+ lbs.  I can account for some of that with the dual alternator dual battery electrical system and my heavy interior.

Could some of you 4-place builders give me your empty and gross weights for comparison. Also any comments on handling at near gross.

Bob Reed
Sent from my iPhone

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

I am the current owner of J. Krasinski's TR-4 N150JK and the empty was 1595 lbs.

When loaded with 72 lbs of fuel (1667 lbs) the nose was 519 lbs, left main was 578 lbs and right main was 572 lbs.

This aircraft had a Franklin 220hp engine and a MT 3 blade constant speed prop and I am sure this was a fair amount of the weight. It also had a very heavy panel due to the use of an interesting choice of instruments and avionics.

The numbers for N150JK and the others provided show a problem with the main gear location. Keep in mind that the nose gear should have a minimum of 10% and a maximum of 25% of the weight at all weights and CG locations. Since the CG is limited to the range of 13% MAC to 28% MAC you can not achieve this 10% to 25% nose gear load without moving the gear. While moving the nose gear forward would help this is difficult. Moving (tilting) the main gear forward is simple and fixes this problem.

Mark K.

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 1/6/19, <mike(at)vision499.com> wrote:

Subject: RE: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place
To: kis-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, January 6, 2019, 11:34 PM



       
       
Weight    Station
   
Nose Wheel   
       
420.50    -8.00
Left Main   
       
585.00    59.00
Right Main   
       
551.00    59.00
Total   
           
1,556.50   

My weights are also much higher than
spec. I knew I was building heavy but
it was a lot more than I expected.
That explains where all the extra
gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
got went.
I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not
sure I'm prepared for the effort to
remove it.
Robert, could you please give us a
breakdown of how much of your weight is
on the nose wheel and how much on the
mains

Good luck

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:05 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Bob,
Good to hear your that far along and sad to hear you have another obstacle to hurdle. As far as factory specs go I don’t think any Cruiser can match them. In my opinion the prototype was seriously under built to achieve impressive numbers. My plane, had I finished it would have been at least 150 lbs overweight.
Yours being 300 lbs over is a daunting problem because of the reduced load capacity making your plane a 2 or 3 seater.
You can probably overcome this deficit with a bigger engine. The specs are figured with the prototype’s 180 hp Lyc. I believe you’re using the 200 hp Lyc. Which would accommodate some of the added weight. If you get rid of the redundant battery you can save considerable weight and you may have near the specified load capacity for the plane.
My nickle’s worth.
Al Rosa

[quote] On Jan 6, 2019, at 11:34 PM, <mike(at)vision499.com> <mike(at)vision499.com> wrote:



Weight Station

Nose Wheel 420.50 -8.00
Left Main 585.00 59.00
Right Main 551.00 59.00
Total 1,556.50

My weights are also much higher than spec. I knew I was building heavy but
it was a lot more than I expected.
That explains where all the extra gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I
got went.
I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not sure I'm prepared for the effort to
remove it.
Robert, could you please give us a breakdown of how much of your weight is
on the nose wheel and how much on the mains

Good luck

Mike


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Robert Reed



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 293
Location: Dallas/Ft.Worth

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

Mike and Others,


Nose Wheel - 359
Left Main - 611
Right Main - 618
TOTAL------ 1588
That includes EVERYTHING needed to fly (Day or Night) including an extra 5lbs for the second Dynon unit which is not installed yet. The plane is outfitted with dual batteries, dual alternators, duel electric fuel pumps, dual electronic ignition, Dynon 10" Skyview, dual com radios, intercom, ADSB, Transponder, Dual NAV Antenna (not connected for future IFR Unit), Dual Com Antenna, Dual GPS Antenna, Dual Pitot Systems, Dual ADHRS, and fully upholstered (poor workmanship on my part) interior. Only thing missing is second DYNON (7") Skyview and Autopilot servos. It did include wheel pants which I am working on and were not complete but were at least a couple of pounds over what I expect the finished weight to be.
I am aware of the added weight for the seats which are over weight by at least 25-30 lbs for the seat rails and attachments. The comfort factor for my wife and the ability to fully recline was worth the added weight. (She will have to learn to pack light) I believe I can find some light weight rails that will save 10-20 lbs but the seats are still heavy. The two batteries are under the front seats and conversion to Earth-X would save another 22 lbs. There are several other areas where I can knock off a pound or two but it is still going to end up in the 1500+ lb range. What I am pleased with is the distribution of the weight had kept the nose wheel weight lower than I have seen with some of the other examples. I haven't worked up the numbers for w&b with various load factors but will try to do that this week.
My mission for the aircraft was for a cross country cruiser that would carry myself (170lbs) and my wife (< 110lbs with her purse) and all the baggage she wanted to carry (put in back seat). A full load of fuel would be optional since at our age we only have 3 hour bladders anyway. ;-( I am looking at setting the Gross as 2500 which is based in part on conversations I had with Rich many years ago regarding the gross weight. He indicated even back then that the 2500 gross would be a safe weight based on the increased strength of the carbon fiber main spar reinforcement that I have compared to the original all glass main spar and their testing of various loads. The comments from the rest of you indicate similar findings. I will start out with the current configuration and weight for initial testing and work to reduce some of the weight as testing proceeds if necessary. I am expecting to get good numbers from the engine with the dual electronic ignition (FLYEFII) and fuel injection combined with the tuned four-into-one exhaust system.
I am not sure where the rest of the weight is but suspect it is well distributed throughout the entire plane. I would go on a diet myself but have already dropped 20lbs and if my wife gets any smaller I won't be able to find her. So it's down to making it work with what we have until I need to replace the batteries and can find some lighter seat rails.
Wish me luck, and thanks to all who have responded.
Bob Reed


PS: Memory foam for the seats is HEAVY but the comfort factor may well be worth it. Also sound absorption adds weight but for long trips can be worth it too.

On ‎Sunday‎, ‎January‎ ‎6‎, ‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎36‎:‎13‎ ‎PM‎ ‎CST, mike(at)vision499.com <mike(at)vision499.com> wrote:




--> KIS-List message posted by: <mike(at)vision499.com (mike(at)vision499.com)>

Weight Station



Nose Wheel 420.50 -8.00

Left Main 585.00 59.00

Right Main 551.00 59.00

Total 1,556.50

My weights are also much higher than spec. I knew I was building heavy but

it was a lot more than I expected.

That explains where all the extra gallons of resin and yds of cloth that I

got went.

I know where 150 lbs are but I'm not sure I'm prepared for the effort to

remove it.

Robert, could you please give us a breakdown of how much of your weight is

on the nose wheel and how much on the mains

Good luck

Mike


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject: Weights for KIS Cruiser 4-place Reply with quote

The factory TR-4 prototype was not under built to save weight. Every part except the rudder was the same as delivered in the kits. All layups were done as in the manuals. Give Rich the credit that was due, he knew how to build light without compromising strength. In fact his layups were probably stronger than most others.

He did use the O-360 A1A that is about the lightest. Used a small battery as near to the engine as possible. He kept the interior to a minimum. There was no muffler. Minimum instruments and avionics. I can't remember for sure but at least one of the prototypes (TR-1 or TR-4) did not have lights!

While few of us can build as light and as strong as Rich that is not the only reason for the large increases in weights. Most of us add more stuff and make modifications and much of this is not needed and at times is detrimental. I have seen lots of things done to "make it stronger" that just make it heavier since the additions were not at the point of first failure. In some cases they reduced the strength.

Most of the changes snowball. For example using a heavier engine can require moving the battery to the back. This then requires the use of long and heavy cables and maybe a larger battery. So 30 lbs added to the engine could end up costing you 50 lbs or more.

A long time ago a friend bought a real nice GlasAir 3. It was a winner at OSH. It had a dual 24V battery system with dual alternators and tons of extra crap. There were 2 electric systems and a DC to DC converter since there were many 12volt avionics. The reason the original builder went with the 24V system in the first place was to save weight since smaller wire could be used. In the end he used the same size wire as required for a 12V system. When my friend ripped it all out and converted to a single 12V system he reduced the weight by 300 lbs! His aircraft finally became a useful 2 seat aircraft.

Mark Kettering


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