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Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle.

 
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motoadve



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:50 am    Post subject: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

Love Vgs, has them on my Cessna 182 , my Nanchang also has them, I dont fly that one at the end of the envelope, and it does not make the whistle, however, they work nicely too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpWHCgYRNLI


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www.Backcountry182.com
Cessna 182 P
CJ -6
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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

Lovely videos. Many years ago, Charles White in Seattle, his flight test engineer and I did a VG scheme for my CJ for the wing, horizontal stabilizer and vertical stabilizer. Did yarn tufting with simultaneous video recording of the airspeed indicator and the wing. Moved the line of VGs on the wing forward and aft until the stall speed was reduced by 10% with the boundary layer for the ailerons remaining protected. This was at an 8% cord line. Before and after the dihedral break, the wing of the CJ is closest to the NACA 230-16.5 and 4412 airfoils. Aside from a slower stall speed, the only other difference is that there appears to be less warning for the stall as I approach 55 KIAS. The VGs on the vertical stabilizer also appear to give it a little more rudder authority. Because kinetic energy is a squared function, the touchdown at 75 and at 65 KIA is noticeably different. Overall, have been very pleased with how this project turned out and feel it has made the airplane safer. The attached image shows the line of VGs along he leading edge.
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ

[img]cid:31DE3122-CD11-4A07-9F83-0AAF47A9F7A7(at)Home[/img]
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 6:50 AM, motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>Love Vgs, has them on my Cessna 182 , my Nanchang also has them, I dont fly that one at the end of the envelope, and it does not make the whistle, however, they work nicely too.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpWHCgYRNLI--------www.Backcountry182.comCessna 182 PCJ -6Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488377#488377



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motoadve



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

Can you show me pictures of were are they installed in the vertical fin and horizontal stab?
Mine only has them on the wing, wonder if under the horizontal stab will increase the reduction in stall speed even more.


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Dawg



Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

DID THEY TELL YOU WHERE TO MOUNT THEM?
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 18:51, Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
Will take some pictures the next time I’m at the airport. The placement of the VGs on the vertical stabilizer and the horizontal stabilizer is not critical and the company supplies a generic template for this. Here is their contact information.
https://microaero.com

Some meaningful insights into how all of this influences the performance of the wing came during testing with yarn tufting. This allows for visualization of the boundary layer breaking down as the stall is approached. Attached is an image taken form the rear cockpit as the stall was developing around 57 KIAS. By 55 KIAS, the airflow pattern was completely disrupted out halfway between the dihedral break and inboard edge of the aileron.

<DSC03587.JPG>

Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 10:19 AM, motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>Can you show me pictures of were are they installed in the vertical fin and horizontal stab?Mine only has them on the wing, wonder if under the horizontal stab will increase the reduction in stall speed even more.--------www.Backcountry182.comCessna 182 PCJ -6Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488379#488379





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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:51 am    Post subject: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

For the vertical and horizontal stabilizers, the answer is yes. You are given a template. Very straightforward.
I don’t know what information the company currently has for the wing CJ in 2019 as I did mine back in 2012. I’m guessing that others have also done this and they now have more information. A cord length of 8% would be a very good place from which to begin and make adjustments from there. Initially the VGs are placed with double sided tape for testing. When testing is complete, the VGs are permanently affixed.
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 6:30 PM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
DID THEY TELL YOU WHERE TO MOUNT THEM?
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 18:51, Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
Will take some pictures the next time I’m at the airport. The placement of the VGs on the vertical stabilizer and the horizontal stabilizer is not critical and the company supplies a generic template for this. Here is their contact information.
https://microaero.com

Some meaningful insights into how all of this influences the performance of the wing came during testing with yarn tufting. This allows for visualization of the boundary layer breaking down as the stall is approached. Attached is an image taken form the rear cockpit as the stall was developing around 57 KIAS. By 55 KIAS, the airflow pattern was completely disrupted out halfway between the dihedral break and inboard edge of the aileron.

<DSC03587.JPG>

Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 10:19 AM, motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>Can you show me pictures of were are they installed in the vertical fin and horizontal stab?Mine only has them on the wing, wonder if under the horizontal stab will increase the reduction in stall speed even more.--------www.Backcountry182.comCessna 182 PCJ -6Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488379#488379







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hill(at)doctor-hill.com
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Flying at the edge of the envelope, VGs whistle. Reply with quote

Here are the images of the VGs on the vertical stabilizer and the underside of the horizontal stabilizer. Their spacing for these is less critical and Charles White provides a template for placement. When you get these, suggest having a handful of spares just in case one comes off.
Hope this helps,
Warren Hill
N464TW
Mesa, AZ

[img]cid:18637CCF-6BB2-4968-9F47-0B7973EE9612(at)Home[/img]
[img]cid:AA4D20EB-6CD5-4F05-A847-9830D808235E(at)Home[/img]
Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Warren Hill <hill(at)doctor-hill.com (hill(at)doctor-hill.com)> wrote:
Will take some pictures the next time I’m at the airport. The placement of the VGs on the vertical stabilizer and the horizontal stabilizer is not critical and the company supplies a generic template for this. Here is their contact information.
https://microaero.com

Some meaningful insights into how all of this influences the performance of the wing came during testing with yarn tufting. This allows for visualization of the boundary layer breaking down as the stall is approached. Attached is an image taken form the rear cockpit as the stall was developing around 57 KIAS. By 55 KIAS, the airflow pattern was completely disrupted out halfway between the dihedral break and inboard edge of the aileron.

<DSC03587.JPG>

Quote:
On Mar 31, 2019, at 10:19 AM, motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>Can you show me pictures of were are they installed in the vertical fin and horizontal stab?Mine only has them on the wing, wonder if under the horizontal stab will increase the reduction in stall speed even more.--------www.Backcountry182.comCessna 182 PCJ -6Read this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=488379#488379http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listhttp://wiki.matronics.com





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