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[Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it?

 
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

If I understand the question correctly, usually when learning to perform a constant G maneuver. Honestly not sure what you meant by "take the most out of your G meter?"

Mark

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From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of motoadve [motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 12:17 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it?



When and how do you take the most out of your G meter?

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter
reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or
video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.

Walt

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terrycalloway(at)mac.com
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

I use and teach with the G-Meter to maintain consistent characteristics of aerobatic maneuvers. When you've got a consistent pull in the same locations you are more likely to achieve the same results. Think of the G-Meter as your calibration device for building beautiful aerobatic maneuvers.

Or to answer your question take the most out of your G meter? Never exceed greater than 75% of the meters rated capacity for longer that 18 minutes in one pull. Smile

[quote] On Apr 12, 2019, at 1:02 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.

Walt

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Possibly (or probably) so Walt. Having taught some basic aerobatics, the new student when being told to "pull 4 G's during the entry to this loop" (per se) will pull back on the stick until seeing 4 G's on the meter and then stop and freeze the stick right there. Of course as the aircraft slows, he or she is no longer pulling 4 G's.

When explained that the pilot has to continually pull back on the stick in order to maintain a certain amount of G as the aircraft slows, the G meter becomes most valuable. The student can focus on that, and coordinate his pull with that G meter maintaining a steady number. This develops muscle memory and after a certain amount of practice, the pilot can do this with only a quick glance at the G meter.

As you mentioned, in the end knowing how to pull and maintain G is critical to performing a symmetrical figure, as simple as a perfectly round loop that goes not look like an egg! Some really talented pilots can feel the G load darn close to perfectly and never needs to look at the G meter.

That being said, I still look at the G meter.

Mark

________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Walter Lannon [wlannon(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 2:02 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it?



Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter
reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or
video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.

Walt

--


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motoadve



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Thanks, this is the info I was looking for.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

I was taught to fly acro by the world's first US woman champion Mary T Gaffeny. You do not pull constant G round in a loop. You may start at pulling 4 gs but as the airplane climbs and gravity and drag from increased lift they starts to slow the airplane down. Continued pulling a constant G load the loop will not be symmetrical because the radius of the turn will tighten. Actually after the nose goes passed the 90 vertical the back pressure on the stick is release somewhat so the aircraft 'fly' over the top of the loop with maybe a 1 g load. The stick pressure is then increased - causing the G load to build again as the radius of the turn can be maintained. Holding a constant G load cause the loop to be oblong - not round.and you night not hit the bottom of the loop at the same altitude you started.

I spent a number of hours being Mary's ground safety pilot as she perfected different maneuvers. Every airplane is different and in order to get a perfect symmetrical maneuver the speed. G pull and stick pressure and position would be different with each aircraft. A lot of times you can only see the symmetricalness of a loop from the ground which is why you need someone on the ground to tell you when you do it right.


I do my loops in the CJ. I put the M14p at 2400 and 30" mp. I usually get about 135 140 kts on the level. I pull to about 3 may 3.5 Gs initially. About 25 degrees passed the vertical I start releasing the back pressure on the stick. Over the top I'm about 1 G - sometime a little less.but never negative. When nose some down about the 45 I start really pulling on the stick and rounding out I'm back to about 3.5 Gs at the bottom and on altitude. For me that seem to work most of the time. Kind of gratifying when you hit your own prop wash at the bottom and I've been told by ground guys it looks round.


Jim "Pappy" Goolsby





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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:43 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.

Walt

--


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Cornering speed…

[quote] On Apr 17, 2019, at 08:42, Michael Foster <michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:



Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>
> Walt
>
> --


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:58 am    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Sorry to disagree, but yes, there is actually such a thing as "a constant G maneuver, and no you really do not need to be Bob Hoover to accomplish it. That being said, I do agree with you, it is not really needed in a 60 degree turn, which is why not too many general aviation aircraft have it included.

But constant G, is no different than constant airspeed, steady altitude, or a certain angle of attack and I believe you know this. The instrument is a tool that is used for certain purposes and how well you use it reflects on your ability as a pilot.

A G meter is standard apparel in any aircraft that is expected to perform aerobatics. It is found not only in the Yak's and CJ's, but also in every military out there (Ok, maybe not during WW-I). Your comment about it being needed for the first and last part of a figure is true and not true, both at the same time. The answer depends on exactly what you are talking about and how you go about trying to do it. You can do a vertical maneuver exactly as you describe, and you can also do aerobatics without a G meter, and it all depends what you are looking for.

If a pilot does exactly what you said: "A gradual pull to 4 G which decreases near the vertical", the arc that the aircraft will draw in the sky will not be symmetrical. if the only goal is to get vertical in the first place, then your description will be fine. If you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, your instructor will sit down and explain what "constant G" really is, why it is important to be able to perform it, and will remind you constantly when you don't. If you perform in todays highly competitive world of aerobatics you will see that the style these days is a very hard onset of G, painful in fact, and then a very rapid release with a slight push forward to "set the line". This kind of flying comes long after your first exposure to a G meter. I hope all of this finally answers the original question of "G meter when do you use it?"

Regarding instruction, bad habits, etc. Anyone with a grain of sense should realize that obtaining instruction before attempting to perform aerobatics is wise. At 21 years of age with no fear of death, and a Marine Sgt. no less, I was not very wise and instead taught myself aerobatics from reading Duanne Cole's book "Turns about a point" in a T-34B Mentor no less. After I don't know how many terrible dished out rolls, and very close experiences with the ground I decided maybe I ought to get some instruction. In other words, I eventually scared myself so badly that I managed to exhibit my first grain of wisdom. I am only mentioning this because at some level, all of us that own airplanes, especially these kinds of airplanes, is a kid at heart no matter how many birthdays we've had.

Those first aerobatic experiences made such a deep impression on me that my SM-1019 now has the same N number as that old T-34B; Beechcraft N4756 And yes, I am lucky to be alive and that N number constantly reminds me of that.

Mark

________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Michael Foster [michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:42 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it?



Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.

Walt

--


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

With regard to Michael's and Mark's latest posts on this subject I have to
both agree and disagree so here goes.

The only "constant G" maneuver I can think of is a level turn. Well
described by Michael.

In slightly over 62 years of owning and flying ex-military training aircraft
I can not recall any being factory equipped with a "G" meter. That includes
the Fairchild PT26 (Cornell), Ryan PT22, Chipmunk, NA Harvard and T6 and
finally the CJ6.
Mark quite likely is correct regarding the T34 Mentor but I suspect
Beechcraft has been a little gun-shy over the years due to a seeming
inability to keep the wings from falling off (and not just the T34).

The first aircraft I installed a "G" meter in was the Harvard 4 (the last
and best of the series). My all time favorite for 30 years, did the local
airshow circuit for many years and held both FAA and Transport Canada
Aerobatic and Formation competency certificates (before ICAS).

I fully agree with Michael's final comment (though probably directed to
myself) regarding instruction. However when I started teaching myself
aerobatics an aerobatic instructor simply did not exist at least in my area
at the time (1955).
I had purchased a series of manuals published in the 1940's by the US Civil
Aeronautics Administration (now FAA) on all aspects of the US Civil Pilot
Training Program. One had a very extensive section on aerobatics. Like
Mark, I scared the s*&t out of myself a few times but somehow survived.

The aircraft we are discussing are all in the "standard" aerobatic category
with operational "G" limits of +6 and -3. One item that may not be well
known is that these limits apply only when the wings are symmetrically
loaded. Maneuvers like a rolling pullout are limited to max. of +4 "G". As
an old guy flying an old aircraft my limit is 4 "G" for everything.

In addition unlike competition aerobatic aircraft we have no inverted fuel
and oil systems. In the Harvard/T6 which has a float type carburetor the
engine will sign off in approx. 6 - 8 sec. of negative "G". Not so in the
CJ6 which employs a pressure carb. In either aircraft the oil pressure is
gone almost instantly with
any negative "G". So zero "G" may be acceptable in the CJ for 2 - 3 sec.
but you should avoid negative like the plague.

Michael's description of the loop is basically correct but I think a little
misleading. Yes; start with a 4 "G" pull to the vertical, forget the "G"
meter and continue to pull! Your airspeed is heading for the toilet and the
"G" loading is going or gone. As you approach the top move the stick very
smoothly forward to sail over the top at zero "G", not +1, for about 1 - 2
sec. then start the pull for home. Now, if you like, you can look at the
"G" meter again.

When you level out at your entry altitude and your entry speed ( I use 160
kts for the CJ) and your "G" meter shows exactly +4 and zero you have just
completed a perfectly round loop. Will take a while to get there and a
smoke system will help a bunch. If you are programmed (as I was) to
American propellor rotation
you may have to relearn how to pull straight up!

Walt

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Viperdoc



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 469
Location: 08A

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

đź‘Ť

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Apr 17, 2019, at 10:27 AM, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Cornering speed…

> On Apr 17, 2019, at 08:42, Michael Foster <michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> --


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Walt, so glad you inserted the caution on rolling pullouts. Not remaining wings level throughout the overheads can easily result in a rolling pullout. In Split S, Half Cubans be sure wings are level before pulling out. Be especially careful in a Barrel Roll to avoid the high g rolling pullout. There will be some g just don’t overdo it.
Mike

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Apr 18, 2019, at 17:48, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



With regard to Michael's and Mark's latest posts on this subject I have to both agree and disagree so here goes.

The only "constant G" maneuver I can think of is a level turn. Well described by Michael.

In slightly over 62 years of owning and flying ex-military training aircraft I can not recall any being factory equipped with a "G" meter. That includes the Fairchild PT26 (Cornell), Ryan PT22, Chipmunk, NA Harvard and T6 and finally the CJ6.
Mark quite likely is correct regarding the T34 Mentor but I suspect Beechcraft has been a little gun-shy over the years due to a seeming inability to keep the wings from falling off (and not just the T34).

The first aircraft I installed a "G" meter in was the Harvard 4 (the last and best of the series). My all time favorite for 30 years, did the local airshow circuit for many years and held both FAA and Transport Canada Aerobatic and Formation competency certificates (before ICAS).

I fully agree with Michael's final comment (though probably directed to myself) regarding instruction. However when I started teaching myself aerobatics an aerobatic instructor simply did not exist at least in my area at the time (1955).
I had purchased a series of manuals published in the 1940's by the US Civil Aeronautics Administration (now FAA) on all aspects of the US Civil Pilot Training Program. One had a very extensive section on aerobatics. Like Mark, I scared the s*&t out of myself a few times but somehow survived.

The aircraft we are discussing are all in the "standard" aerobatic category with operational "G" limits of +6 and -3. One item that may not be well known is that these limits apply only when the wings are symmetrically loaded. Maneuvers like a rolling pullout are limited to max. of +4 "G". As an old guy flying an old aircraft my limit is 4 "G" for everything.

In addition unlike competition aerobatic aircraft we have no inverted fuel and oil systems. In the Harvard/T6 which has a float type carburetor the engine will sign off in approx. 6 - 8 sec. of negative "G". Not so in the CJ6 which employs a pressure carb. In either aircraft the oil pressure is gone almost instantly with
any negative "G". So zero "G" may be acceptable in the CJ for 2 - 3 sec. but you should avoid negative like the plague.

Michael's description of the loop is basically correct but I think a little misleading. Yes; start with a 4 "G" pull to the vertical, forget the "G" meter and continue to pull! Your airspeed is heading for the toilet and the "G" loading is going or gone. As you approach the top move the stick very smoothly forward to sail over the top at zero "G", not +1, for about 1 - 2 sec. then start the pull for home. Now, if you like, you can look at the "G" meter again.

When you level out at your entry altitude and your entry speed ( I use 160 kts for the CJ) and your "G" meter shows exactly +4 and zero you have just completed a perfectly round loop. Will take a while to get there and a smoke system will help a bunch. If you are programmed (as I was) to American propellor rotation
you may have to relearn how to pull straight up!

Walt



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Viperdoc



Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 469
Location: 08A

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it? Reply with quote

Absolutely correct there is a such thing as constant G turn. That was our cornering speed in the Viper (all other fighters too for that matter). The best rate of turn at constant airspeed and G as memory serves was between 330-450 kts at 6-8 Gs. That gave Viper the best rate of turn in ACM. Hi G = tighter turn radius but it also meant more bleed off of AS and less energy.
All aircraft have a best cornering speed but most civilian aircraft drivers do not use that parameter.
Doc

Sent from my iPad

[quote] On Apr 17, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV USMC MAG 14 (US) <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



Sorry to disagree, but yes, there is actually such a thing as "a constant G maneuver, and no you really do not need to be Bob Hoover to accomplish it. That being said, I do agree with you, it is not really needed in a 60 degree turn, which is why not too many general aviation aircraft have it included.



But constant G, is no different than constant airspeed, steady altitude, or a certain angle of attack and I believe you know this. The instrument is a tool that is used for certain purposes and how well you use it reflects on your ability as a pilot.



A G meter is standard apparel in any aircraft that is expected to perform aerobatics. It is found not only in the Yak's and CJ's, but also in every military out there (Ok, maybe not during WW-I). Your comment about it being needed for the first and last part of a figure is true and not true, both at the same time. The answer depends on exactly what you are talking about and how you go about trying to do it. You can do a vertical maneuver exactly as you describe, and you can also do aerobatics without a G meter, and it all depends what you are looking for.



If a pilot does exactly what you said: "A gradual pull to 4 G which decreases near the vertical", the arc that the aircraft will draw in the sky will not be symmetrical. if the only goal is to get vertical in the first place, then your description will be fine. If you are a beginning aerobatic pilot, your instructor will sit down and explain what "constant G" really is, why it is important to be able to perform it, and will remind you constantly when you don't. If you perform in todays highly competitive world of aerobatics you will see that the style these days is a very hard onset of G, painful in fact, and then a very rapid release with a slight push forward to "set the line". This kind of flying comes long after your first exposure to a G meter. I hope all of this finally answers the original question of "G meter when do you use it?"



Regarding instruction, bad habits, etc. Anyone with a grain of sense should realize that obtaining instruction before attempting to perform aerobatics is wise. At 21 years of age with no fear of death, and a Marine Sgt. no less, I was not very wise and instead taught myself aerobatics from reading Duanne Cole's book "Turns about a point" in a T-34B Mentor no less. After I don't know how many terrible dished out rolls, and very close experiences with the ground I decided maybe I ought to get some instruction. In other words, I eventually scared myself so badly that I managed to exhibit my first grain of wisdom. I am only mentioning this because at some level, all of us that own airplanes, especially these kinds of airplanes, is a kid at heart no matter how many birthdays we've had.



Those first aerobatic experiences made such a deep impression on me that my SM-1019 now has the same N number as that old T-34B; Beechcraft N4756 And yes, I am lucky to be alive and that N number constantly reminds me of that.



Mark







________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Michael Foster [michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:42 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] G meter, when do you use it?



Is there really such a thing as a constant g maneuver? Think of a 60 degree aob steep turn. It is by definition a 2 g level turn. Can you fly it at a constant 2 g? Maybe if you are Bob Hoover, but us mortals have to adjust the g and bank to stay level. Vertical maneuvers are the same. They start with a gradual pull to 4 g, which decreases near the vertical to about 1 g over the top and gradually increases again going down. The g meter teaches muscle memory and is useful only to set the nose for the first and last quarter of the maneuver. Get some instruction before teaching yourself bad habits.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2019, at 14:02, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> Perhaps the answer to that question may be: -- In comparing your "G" meter reading after completion of a maneuver with a ground observer's remarks (or video) and your own impressions of the maneuver's quality.
>
> Walt
>
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- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

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