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Prop won't slow below 70%

 
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glipaz



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:59 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

To the brain tank:
I have a stock M-14P motor with a stock hub, Russian v530 paddle prop, and rebuilt prop governor.

Prop is at 16 degrees per the book. In flight I am not able to get the RPM to go below 70% even with the prop lever all the way back at the gate. I was advised to increase the size of the spring in the prop governor but Jill suggested that with all stock setup that should not be necessary.

Any ideas or thoughts?

Gil


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richard.goode(at)russiana
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

The standard R-2 Russian governor will generate enough oil pressure for the
Russian V-530 prop, although you do need to install higher pressure springs
for MT and Whirlwind props.

But I would suggest that you are having a blockage of oil either into or out
of the governor. There are quite narrow oil ways, and a gauze filter
underneath the governor and if anything is blocked, clearly the governor
will not work correctly.

Richard
RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS
Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK
Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129
e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com
www.russianaeros.com
WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES
In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.
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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

No; Just questions;

Is this M14P on a CJ?

Which book put the fine pitch setting at 16 degs.? That is the correct
setting for the Chinese prop. on the Huosai engine.
The book setting for the V530 with stock blades on the M14P is 14.5 degs.

However that is a different problem than what you describe which I suspect
is an incorrect governor set-up procedure. Have not read it for a while but
If I remember correctly the Russian procedure is poorly written and
confusing while the Chinese is simple and straightforward. Numbers of
course are different! But the basic process is the same.

I would not buy life insurance from whomever told you to replace the
"speeder" spring in the governor. Jill's advice here was most certainly
correct not to mention extremely polite.

Walt

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Have you removed and cleaned the prop governor oil screen on the right side of the nose case?

Dennis


On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 3:35:57 PM EDT, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:




--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>

The standard R-2 Russian governor will generate enough oil pressure for the

Russian V-530 prop, although you do need to install higher pressure springs

for MT and Whirlwind props.

But I would suggest that you are having a blockage of oil either into or out

of the governor. There are quite narrow oil ways, and a gauze filter

underneath the governor and if anything is blocked, clearly the governor

will not work correctly.

Richard

RICHARD GOODE AEROBATICS

Rhodds Farm, Lyonshall, Hereford, HR5 3LW, UK

Tel: +44 (0)1544 340120 Fax: +44 (0)1544 340129

e-mail: richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)

www.russianaeros.com

WORLD LEADERS IN RUSSIAN SPORTING AIRCRAFT & ENGINES

In partnership with Aerometal Kft, Hungary.

--


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GeorgeCoy



Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 277

PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

The speeder spring was sold (by MT Propeller) to increase the pressure or
the Russian R2 governor for use on early MT9 propellers. Later MT design did
not require the speeder spring. Sometimes we simply added a 1/4 in washer
under the spring.
George Coy

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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

You should listen to Walt because he is right on the money. Besides the incorrect blade angle setting, setting up the prop governor is probably where your problem is. If you haven't set up an M14 prop governor before, it would be best to find someone who has. Otherwise it truly is hit and miss (mostly miss to be honest with you).

Dennis


On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 4:21:18 PM EDT, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:




--> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>

No; Just questions;

Is this M14P on a CJ?

Which book put the fine pitch setting at 16 degs.? That is the correct

setting for the Chinese prop. on the Huosai engine.

The book setting for the V530 with stock blades on the M14P is 14.5 degs.

However that is a different problem than what you describe which I suspect

is an incorrect governor set-up procedure. Have not read it for a while but

If I remember correctly the Russian procedure is poorly written and

confusing while the Chinese is simple and straightforward. Numbers of

course are different! But the basic process is the same.

I would not buy life insurance from whomever told you to replace the

"speeder" spring in the governor. Jill's advice here was most certainly

correct not to mention extremely polite.

Walt

--


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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

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glipaz



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Gents:
Thank you for your comments. My prop is set to 14.5 degrees, not 16.
The prop cycles properly on the ground using the proper runup procedure quoted below. It attains 99% RPM at full power and, after pulling throttle to 70%, then cycling prop to minimum, the RPM drops to 53%.

From Task Card 204:
"NOTE: The adjustment is regarded to be completed, if with throttle fully open and the governor control lever set to the low pitch stop, the engine gains a speed of 99 % (2900 r/min) and when the lever is shifted to the high pitch from nominal rating II 70 % (2050 r/min), the speed of rotation drops drastically to 53 %."

In cruise flight, with MP at 6.4, the RPM does not drop below 70% even with the prop lever back at the stop.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Hi Gil;

Question 1; In cruise at 640 mm/hg what happens when you push the nose
down? Does the RPM remain at 2030 or increase?

Question 2: Have you by any chance replaced the pitch change piston assy.
with a Chinese one?

Walt

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glipaz



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Hi Walt. Pitching forward causes RPM to increase.
Re pitch change piston, I assume you mean the piston in the hub. I bought it with the hub and assume it is standard Russian.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:18 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

I have seen differences in " dome pistons" used in V530 hubs (and Chinese). The main thing to check is the amount of angular motion allowed by the assembly. There is a "ring" on the base of the piston that is held in place with cotter pins. The Thickness of that ring controls the amount of linear piston movement, hence total angular movement in the blades. Also check depth of the dome being used.

I have seen different ring thicknesses and by mixing Chinese and Russian parts in my Yak-Chang or Nan-Yak, I could get 2900 RPM fine pitch and as low as 1680 RPM at low MAP settings in coarse pitch. Once managed 520 NM on 46 gallons. With an aux tank of course!
Craig Payne


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rickkelleyfly(at)gmail.co
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Don’t know that one. 210-787-0327

Sent from my iPhone

Quote:
On Apr 21, 2019, at 3:17 AM, Craig Payne <yakman285(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I have seen differences in " dome pistons" used in V530 hubs (and Chinese). The main thing to check is the amount of angular motion allowed by the assembly. There is a "ring" on the base of the piston that is held in place with cotter pins. The Thickness of that ring controls the amount of linear piston movement, hence total angular movement in the blades. Also check depth of the dome being used.

I have seen different ring thicknesses and by mixing Chinese and Russian parts in my Yak-Chang or Nan-Yak, I could get 2900 RPM fine pitch and as low as 1680 RPM at low MAP settings in coarse pitch. Once managed 520 NM on 46 gallons. With an aux tank of course!

Craig Payne


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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Hi Gill;

If you were removing the prop. the first operation would remove the skull
cap then the safety wire, screw and lock plate that keeps the pitch change
cylinder in place on the hub.
Rotate and remove the cylinder complete with the piston from the hub.
Remove the piston from the cylinder for inspection.

This assembly is absolutely identical and interchangeable whether Chinese,
Russian or Polish with one important difference.

Looking at the piston you will see there is a ring on the fwd. side that is
held in place by 2 cotter pins. This is the coarse pitch stop ring that
contacts the inner fwd. surface of the cylinder and determines the coarse
pitch blade angle and therefor the pitch range of the prop. This is
adjustable by varying the ring thickness.

If the ring thickness is approx. 4 mm (5/32") it is Russian for a coarse
blade angle of approx. 35 deg. If approx. 8 mm it is Chinese (or Polish)
for a coarse angle of approx. 31 deg.

Let me know what you find,

Walt

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Gill;

In describing the piston/cylinder function I should have written "---------
and determines the maximum coarse pitch blade angle ---------".

Walt

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glipaz



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Walt, thank you. I had not heard/known about this difference in piston ring size and will look to see. If I open it and find that the ring is the Chinese 8mm size, can I replace it or mill it down to 4mm or do I need a replacement piston? I assume the cylinder does not need to be replaced.
Gil


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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Yes, it can be replaced or removed and milled down. It is a simple alum.
alloy spacer ring designed to accommodate different requirements for coarse
pitch blade angle. Yes, the cylinder is fine. I can't be certain this is
your problem but it sure fits the symptoms.

Walt
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

I have a question.
If during pre takeoff run up the prop will cycle down to 53% and up to 99%, why would the ring have anything to do with the problem he’s having?
Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

[quote] On Apr 22, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:



Yes, it can be replaced or removed and milled down. It is a simple alum. alloy spacer ring designed to accommodate different requirements for coarse pitch blade angle. Yes, the cylinder is fine. I can't be certain this is your problem but it sure fits the symptoms.

Walt


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glipaz



Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

Gents:
I measured the ring. While the ring itself is 12mm thick, the part that extends beyond the piston is 5mm. See attached pic. I do not foresee that this is the problem but I’m here for your advice.
Gil


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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

That is a stock M14 ring. The course pitch will be approx. 35 deg. so back
to the drawing board.

Sorry!
Walt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Prop won't slow below 70% Reply with quote

It has nothing to do with the high RPM (99%) adjustment.
The 53% setting could, I believe, be obtained with adjustment of the
governor low RPM screw even with a higher coarse pitch setting in the prop.
Walt

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